The Action Reinhard Camps

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:08 am

Irrelevant, fevered nonsense.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:13 am

S/he's connipting again? :-P
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:15 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Irrelevant, fevered nonsense.

Has no argument, just the same arrogant proclamations of nothing. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:50 am

You posted nothing to argue against nitwit. As Nessie has tried to get you to understand, you need to make an evidence based argument for an actual discussion to take place. Merely asserting your beliefs is not a substitute.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:17 am

A reminder of how Monty started the thread. It started badly;

montgomery wrote:I'll post this link here as an easy place from which to reference it.
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/08-t.pdf


Only one source and a very biased one at that.

I'm sure all our resident experts have read this so it won't be anything new to them. But I would also like to use this reference to ask questions of forum members.


Monty admits he has not even read the source. Instead, he wants to ask questions.

And so to begin with, are Grossman and other witnesses...


He has seen that at the start there is a list of names. He thinks they are all witnesses. They are not. Only one was a worker inside TII and was a witness as to what happened inside the camp.

being quoted correctly.


I don't think anyone disputes Mattogno has quoted them correctly.

It seems that if so, then they are telling some real whoppers!


How does Monty know that? He has not read them and he has failed to show he understands what a witness is.

And of course it's also possible that they are just liars and exaggerators being falsely quoted by the H.D. side. In other words, why bother to read the entire piece if it's going to be claimed that these people are false witnesses. But if they are supposed reliable witnesses, then there's a he-- of a lot of explaining to be done!

Then of course, some could be accepted as true witnesses and some others could be accepted as the L's and the E's. (liars and exaggerators) I'll need some opinions to sort them out.


Monty admits he does not know what a witness is and he needs help to sort them out, but not evidence, he wants opinion!?!
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:34 am

Good points, montgomery has gone on and on about a list of what he calls “bogus witnesses” - when almost none of the names on the list are those of witnesses and and when montgomery has told us he hasn’t bothered to acquire the context to know what is bogus and what isn’t.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:31 am

And a reminder of the second post in the thread:
montgomery wrote:Steam ovens were the principle method used??

This “question” was answered at once, in detail, with a resounding “no,” which didn’t stop montgomery and VFX from pretending that the question hasn’t been answered and from winding themselves up with a fantasy about “lobster steaming.”

It seems that neither of these two will take “no” for an answer. Like children.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:15 pm

Come on, let’s get going, montgomery and VFX. Bogus witnesses and lobster steaming. As you’ve been saying ....

Maybe this will help you focus. I’d still like to discuss the links I provided you in the third post in this thread. But since you’re trying to avoid that discussion let’s proceed with some simple questions that can be built upon:

Abraham Krzepicki: “None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused.” Was this statement bogus?

Emanuel Ringelblum: “Treblinki – The news about the grave-diggers (Rabinowicz, Jacob), the Jews from Stok who escaped from the wagons . . . loaded with gold and foreign currency – the unanimous description of the ‘bath,’ the Jewish gravediggers with yellow patches on their knees. – The method of killing: gas, steam, electricity.” Was this statement bogus?

In what style did Wiernik write his book about his time in Treblinka?

What was Gustav Münzberger’s defense in the Düsseldorf Treblinka trial against prosecution charges that he was guilty of murder? What do you make of the court’s judgment in his case?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:43 pm

Nessie wrote:A reminder of how Monty started the thread. It started badly...

montgomery wrote:It seems that if so, then they are telling some real whoppers!


How does Monty know that? He has not read them and he has failed to show he understands what a witness is.

And of course it's also possible that they are just liars and exaggerators being falsely quoted by the H.D. side. In other words, why bother to read the entire piece if it's going to be claimed that these people are false witnesses. But if they are supposed reliable witnesses, then there's a he-- of a lot of explaining to be done!

Then of course, some could be accepted as true witnesses and some others could be accepted as the L's and the E's. (liars and exaggerators) I'll need some opinions to sort them out.


Monty admits he does not know what a witness is and he needs help to sort them out, but not evidence, he wants opinion!?!

Yes, from a trusted source. It makes life soooo much easier. S/he would trust you, but you have to call him/her honey, sweetie and pumpkin.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Come on, let’s get going, montgomery and VFX. Bogus witnesses and lobster steaming. As you’ve been saying ....

Maybe this will help you focus. I’d still like to discuss the links I provided you in the third post in this thread. But since you’re trying to avoid that discussion let’s proceed with some simple questions that can be built upon:

Abraham Krzepicki: “None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused.” Was this statement bogus?

Emanuel Ringelblum: “Treblinki – The news about the grave-diggers (Rabinowicz, Jacob), the Jews from Stok who escaped from the wagons . . . loaded with gold and foreign currency – the unanimous description of the ‘bath,’ the Jewish gravediggers with yellow patches on their knees. – The method of killing: gas, steam, electricity.” Was this statement bogus?

In what style did Wiernik write his book about his time in Treblinka?

What was Gustav Münzberger’s defense in the Düsseldorf Treblinka trial against prosecution charges that he was guilty of murder? What do you make of the court’s judgment in his case?


My answer for all of your questions is: I don't know. But if you want to deal with any one of them by itself and present the evidence, I'll look at it and consider it. The second question interests me so maybe we can begin with that.
Warning: I'm through with having to contend with your rudeness and bad manners. Fix that and we can discuss any issue you like. One at a time please.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:56 pm

Then why are you going on about bogus witnesses? And lobster steaming?

You haven’t read Mattogno’s book - you go on about bogus witnesses in it. You don’t know about some core witnesses regarding the steam nonsense - you drone on about steam. You whine that I’ve ignored your questions - but I answered them in posts you didn’t read. You decided not to read the articles I linked to - yet you pretend to be interested in learning. You obviously lack all context and know virtually nothing, as I am asking you incredibly basic questions. And you don’t take the simplest steps to become informed.

Begin with what you like. Or not. You’re not even a charlatan. You’re nothing.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then why are you going on about bogus witnesses? And lobster steaming?


No, I haven't read Mattogno's book but I've read some excerpts from it and you know where the link it which I've read from. Steaming is talked about and phony testimony is presented.

You haven’t read Mattogno’s book - you go on about bogus witnesses in it. You don’t know about some core witnesses regarding the steam nonsense - you drone on about steam. You whine that I’ve ignored your questions - but I answered them in posts you didn’t read. You decided not to read the articles I linked to - yet you pretend to be interested in learning. You obviously lack all context and know virtually nothing, as I am asking you incredibly basic questions. And you don’t take the simplest steps to become informed.

Begin with what you like. Or not. You’re not even a charlatan. You’re nothing.


If there's something you wish to bring to my attention I'll be pleased to look at it. Do it in an orderly and polite way. If there are any of your posts I've failed to read, it's because I'm tired of having to read useless babbling that is full of insults. Change your behavior and start acting like a decent human being.

Or, to be honest about it, DON'T!

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Has Montgomery engaged with Hans yet?

I might take it off ignore if that happens. Until then much like the other one - wacky Nazi loony? I very much doubt that one will engage either with Hans either. When Montgomery engages with Hans he can come off ignore, as he/she is obviously missing my carefully thought out replies.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:43 pm

I peeked and it was even more disappointing than you’d expect. Definitely worth a look. Monkey man is mostly interested in talking about talking. He can’t even figure out how to ask a question.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:53 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:Has Is Montgomery engaged enraged with Hans yet?...

Yep.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:59 pm

I might take him off ignore if he like Hans and Nessie is capable of engaging in a polite respectful discussion with me in a gentlemanly manner...

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:I might take him off ignore if he like Hans and Nessie is capable of engaging in a polite respectful discussion with me in a gentlemanly manner...

Oh, I'm sure s/he'll tell you politely what s/he hasn't read or looked at yet and how there is no intention to do so in the near future. But if you're nice, you can research stuff for him/her and, if you opine about it in a nice and positive manner, s/he'll tell you s/he'll think about it. Sometime in the not too distant future. Or not, depending on lunch and how the digestive system is dealing with it. Or something to that extend. :-D
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:39 pm

Somebody needs to tell Darren not to take me off ignore. He'll just be disappointed in what I say. And I'll just treat him the same way I treat eggs. Or just ignore him completely more likley because I think he's pretty much the same kind of goofball as eggs, balmoral, and the bookid.

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:07 pm

montgomery wrote:Somebody needs to tell Darren not to take me off ignore. He'll just be disappointed in what I say. And I'll just treat him the same way I treat eggs. Or just ignore him completely more likley because I think he's pretty much the same kind of goofball as eggs, balmoral, and the bookid.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:26 pm

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then why are you going on about bogus witnesses? And lobster steaming?


No, I haven't read Mattogno's book but I've read some excerpts from it and you know where the link it which I've read from. Steaming is talked about and phony testimony is presented.

....


Sorry, you have just done it again! There is no eye witness testimony about steaming from people who actually saw a gassing. There is mistaken hearsay evidence from people who worked elsewhere in the camps and some of the Polish reports.

Mattogno's tactic is to claim bogus witness of people who were not there. That denier tactic is repeated in other instances. For example, there is a denier called FP Berg who thinks he has made a major contribution to the history of the Holocaust, because he realised it was unlikely that reports of diesel engines used for gassings were possible. Diesel will not gas as quickly or as effectively as a petrol engine putting out CO. The problem is that he failed to understand the difference between actual eye witness with detailed knowledge and hearsay and secondary reports. All the eye witnesses who saw the engines used referred to them as petrol. The mistaken diesel came from those who had not see the gas chambers in any detail or who passed on hearsay.

You attract ridicule from the others because you keep on making the same mistake and refuse to show any sign of understanding and learning when the simple difference between actual eye witness and hearsay is explained to you again and again. I also makes me suspicious that your intentions here are not to learn.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:34 pm

Maybe monty knows Berg. Maybe s/he knows him quite well. Maybe monty is Berg's new little friend.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:48 pm

Nessie wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then why are you going on about bogus witnesses? And lobster steaming?


No, I haven't read Mattogno's book but I've read some excerpts from it and you know where the link it which I've read from. Steaming is talked about and phony testimony is presented.

....


Sorry, you have just done it again! There is no eye witness testimony about steaming from people who actually saw a gassing. There is mistaken hearsay evidence from people who worked elsewhere in the camps and some of the Polish reports.

I am through responding to montgomery, even when I see his posts in what's been quoted by you and others. He's ludicrous and vacuous and his act isn't worth the time and effort.

I will reply to you, however, Nessie. In the third post in this thread, I linked to a long HC piece that examined denier Friedrich Jansson's then-recent attempt (2015-2016) to give the denier "steam" gambit both support and legs. I also linked to discussion of the matter in this forum.

A bit later I posted some of the conclusions from the HC piece:
First, you yourself [VFX] have posted that many of the early witnesses couldn't see what was going on inside the gas chambers, so they didn't know exactly - certainly not what painstaking research shows but also what later witnesses could learn - and some made guesses. But a number of these same early witnesses could observe the process, with the gas chambers as black boxes: they could see crowds of people shoved in, they could observe a pause, and they could observe or be part of the process of removing corpses from the "black boxes." What they saw, thus, was a murder process, without knowing all the particular. (This was the case with Wiernik's writing about Treblinka, for example.)

Second, as to the Treblinka "steam" foolishness, from the Jansson link above,
Out of 83 Treblinka testimonies from camp survivors, I have been able to identify references to method of death in about half (number=43).[95]

36 witnesses reported murder by means of gas only
1 reported steam only (Gutman)
2 reported gas and/or steam (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz)
1 reported gas or electricity (Bund report, presumably U. Wallach)
3 reported some combination of gas with air pumped out, chlorine, ether, or Zyklon B (A Kon, S. Rajzman, S Goldberg)

And:
- Every single report of “steam” killings comes from the pre-Stangl period in the camp, that is, from a Jew deported to the camp during July and August 1942. The witnesses show a good deal of variation, two of them mentioning multiple methods, during this time. Looking at reports from prisoners from this period, ignoring escape date, we see that 2 mentioned both gas and steam (Krzepicki, Rabinowicz), 1 mentioned steam (Gutman), the Bund report mentioned gas and electricity, and 5 witnesses didn't say.
- Conversely, none of the “eyewitness” reports in the sample for those brought to Treblinka after August 1942 mentioned steam as the method of killing. Escapees from the camp from September 1942 onwards generally identified gas chambers as where the murders occurred.[96] The only mention of steam made after fall-winter 1942 in the sample came from Gutman, an August 1942 escapee, in his 1947 testimony.
- Every prisoner in the sample who escaped during the revolt in August 1943 and who mentioned a killing method (sample=29) referred to gas chambers; every prisoner in the sample who was assigned to the upper, or death, camp (sample=10, excluding Krzepicki from the sample) gave gas chambers as the method of killing.
- The obvious conclusion is that “steam murder” circulated as a rumor only during the chaotic Eberl period, in the opening weeks of Treblinka’s existence, when workers from the work squads were routinely executed in selections. As prisoners gained experience in the camp, and Kommando membership stabilized, the means of killing became clearer to prisoners and rumors were tamped down.

Why do you repeat such asinine conceits?

Another conclusion from the HC paper mirrors what you've posted here:
. . . few of the witnesses reporting on what was happening to Jews at Treblinka were in a position to observe directly the method of death; as Krzepicki explained, even workers who extracted corpses from the murder installation were unable to say exactly how the victims had been murdered. And most reports about the killing came from escapees or others who were not nearly as close to the murder process as corpse handlers. . . .

What emerges from the body of these testimonies is the following:

- The witnesses gave remarkably similar accounts of the arrival process, with victims herded through the reception camp through the “chute” to the bath-house – and of how corpses were removed from the death chambers and disposed of; these parts of the process were its most visible elements

- There is no dominant “steam” narrative but rather a great deal of uncertainty along with a bias toward gas as the method of killing, the part of the process which witnesses were unable to observe directly

The paper also attempted to explain what issues and needs those to whom the early witnesses reported their experiences were focused on, as these were the people who disseminated the horrifying news from Treblinka - in part these people, mostly activists in the Warsaw ghetto, wanted to tell the world what was happening and create a historical record, but more pressing was their concern for their community:
Second – and this is why I’ve stressed that the Wasser-Gutkowski-Ringelblum report is not aptly described as “the steam chambers report,” a description which is itself wholly polemical – the Jewish activists had more immediate concerns, and thus points of focus, than the precise manner by which their family members, friends, and neighbors were being murdered. The reports of this time pay a great deal of attention to very basic issues: where were deportees taken, would there be further deportations and when, were different parts of the Jewish population to be treated differently by the Germans and were there strategies for escaping deportation, how did Jews fare where they were taken and was there truth to what the Germans stated, what tactics did the Germans use in rounding up and deporting Jews, what kind of force did the Germans apply, and so on. These were urgent questions – perhaps questions of life and death. Method of death, once activists had determined that in fact deportees were being subjected to murder, was one among many urgent questions – and, judging from the extant reports, not the most urgent.

The consistently and relentless unseriousness displayed by montgomery and VFX - their refusal to address and discuss evidence, their unwillingness to read what's spoon-feed to them, their vast ignorance, their clownish stalling - short-circuits any attempt at a real discussion of the issues. Plus, in this forum at least, the nonsense these two keep posting is hardly novel - in fact, we've been through "steam," Wiernik, and a lot of other Treblinka themes in painful detail. You and I, I recall, were part of a long thread on Wiernik, for example.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am through responding to montgomery, even when I see his posts in what's been quoted by you and others. He's ludicrous and vacuous and his act isn't worth the time and effort.

I will reply to you, however, Nessie.

Seems he can't handle your arguments Montgomery, which are quite profound. Darrin can't either and has scurried back behind his clock. Seems Mekanik wants to play with his pet Kelpie in the Loch. Roll over Kelpie, your tummy needs tickling. Flap about.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Nessie » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:33 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am through responding to montgomery, even when I see his posts in what's been quoted by you and others. He's ludicrous and vacuous and his act isn't worth the time and effort.

I will reply to you, however, Nessie.

Seems he can't handle your arguments Montgomery, which are quite profound. Darrin can't either and has scurried back behind his clock. Seems Mekanik wants to play with his pet Kelpie in the Loch. Roll over Kelpie, your tummy needs tickling. Flap about.


Stat Mech posts a detailed explanation about witness testimony and the steam/gas narrative, not for the first time and that is all you can come up with. And you wonder why you get abused?!?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:57 pm

Montgomery is supposed to be too much for me? Stalling and dodging are now "profound"? LOL
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Abraham Krzepicki: “None of the workers knew exactly how death was caused.” Was this statement bogus?

Of course not, Krzepicki, an early Treblinka escapee, gave a realistic assessment of how little even the workers closest to the killing knew for sure about the murder methods during the chaotic early period of the Treblinka extermination camp.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Emanuel Ringelblum: “Treblinki – The news about the grave-diggers (Rabinowicz, Jacob), the Jews from Stok who escaped from the wagons . . . loaded with gold and foreign currency – the unanimous description of the ‘bath,’ the Jewish gravediggers with yellow patches on their knees. – The method of killing: gas, steam, electricity.” Was this statement bogus?

Of course not, Emanuel Ringelblum, leader of a group of Warsaw activists called Oyneg Shabes, wrote this undated note, apparently sometime in fall 1942; he may have been present at a discussion at Hersh Wasser's apartment in late September, which Abraham Lewin also wrote about - or he may have learned about Treblinka in some other way. In any event, Ringelblum jotted down a hurried, impressionistic note of what he recalled having heard. The statement reflects the uncertain nature of information about the extermination process at Warsaw as well as the propensity to establish explanations amidst the uncertainty. It is unclear what is being attributed to Jacob Rabinowicz, another early Treblinka escapee, by Ringelblum, but Rabinowicz had already given in early September a complete testimony to Hilllel Seidman; in this testimony, Rabinowicz was clear about how he believed Jews were being murdered at Treblinka: Rabinowicz is recorded by Seidman to have twice mentioned gas killings at the camp; the Yiddish words Seidman used were fargazt (gassed) and fargasn (infinitive, to gas).

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In what style did Wiernik write his book about his time in Treblinka?

Wiernik wrote his book in a literary style, using poetic language. Wiernik seems to have had a writer's sensibility. His Treblinka text relies on demanding figurative language, is allusive, and uses metaphors and other techniques to create vivid impressions and understanding; native Polish speakers I know have told me that passages of his book are extremely well written and lyrical. Wiernik's style makes reading his text difficult even for Polish readers, let alone in translation for people who don't know the Polish language (and the context in which Wiernik wrote and the sources for his references). That said, there is simply no excuse for wittering on about Wiernik without at least having attempted to read the text he wrote, and reading his text is different to gleaning a few items cherrypicked by others from his book.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:What was Gustav Münzberger’s defense in the Düsseldorf Treblinka trial against prosecution charges that he was guilty of murder? What do you make of the court’s judgment in his case?

Essentially, Münzberger's defense was that he was a cog in the Treblinka machine, that he did his duty despite objecting inwardly to this duty, that his assigned job was to get Jews brought to Treblinka into the gas chambers efficiently, and that this he did without abusing the victims, hating them, or causing them any additional agony. In short, he executed his duties in the mass gassing of Jews at Treblinka simply as assigned. Slightly adapting an old post made here, I can say some more about Münzberger, however:
- Münzberger was a Volksdeutsche SS officer, promoted for special distinction for his role in Aktion Reinhard; evidence placed him in Treblinka from September 1942 through November 1943
- Münzberger worked first in the lower camp before being transferred to the upper camp, where, armed with a whip and a pistol, he worked at the entrance to the gas chamber
- His role at the gas chamber was to get the greatest possible number of men, women, and children into the chambers - with a minimum of trouble; in this he was supported by Ukrainian guards; Jews were whipped and struck with rifle butts to force them into the gas chambers
- Münzberger was zealous in his duties in the gas chamber
- Münzberger also directed work of the corpse Jews, supervising removal of the dead from the gas chambers and the transport to pits and later to the grates on which they were burnt; in this work too Munzberger whipped the Jews
- These above facts about Münzberger were based on defendant pleadings, SS witnesses, and victim witnesses in the Düsseldorf Treblinka trial
- Despite acknowledging the findings, Münzberger offered the following defense: he maintained peace and order for those being brought to the gas chambers, he did not use blows on the Jews who first entered the gas chambers but was sometimes compelled to for later groups who by then guessed at their fate, he tried to shield later groups from the cries of those who first were gassed, when it was winter he worked particularly hard to speed the process so that the victims didn’t have to wait long in the cold, the brutality and cruelty of the Ukrainian guards couldn’t be blamed on him because they were under Franz’s command, and he hadn’t brutalized the corpse Jews as they worked quickly on their own
- Despite Münzberger’s explanations, the court found, witnesses consistently testified that Münzberger was brutal, ruthlessly whipping those being sent into the gas chambers as well as Jews working in the corpse detail; his fellow SS co-defendants described Münzberger also as brutal and a heavy drinker
- Further, Münzberger’s claim that he had no authority over the Ukrainian guards was false and that he could have stopped such conduct as the guards’ throwing babies over the heads of adults and into the chambers
- Münzberger sometimes shot Jews in the vicinity of the gas chambers including on one occasion in 1943 a mother and her two (or three) children who could not to be squeezed into the gas chambers
- (The Düsseldorf court's judgment against Münzberger discussed executions, including a hanging of five prisoners and the shooting of 24 prisoners for attempting escape, for which there was good evidence but not enough to be certain that Münzberger was perpetrator)
- The judgment concluded that Münzberger not only participated in the various crimes, including his role in the gassings, but that he was aware that the extermination of the Jews in which he played a role was against the precepts of humanity as well as against the law; the court noted Münzberger’s pleading that he had to follow orders and that as an SS officer he had to do his duty even if against his internal disposition – but the court also noted that witnesses described Münzberger’s zeal, his urging others to carry out the extermination to their best ability, and his later citation by the SS for his role in the extermination
- Münzberger, the judgment noted, made the following arguments – that he didn’t consider the extermination right, that he was in a position in which the victims should have felt sorry for him, he carried out his duties in fear of punishment should he not do so, he could not escape the camp, and he had asked Wirth for a transfer to the Waffen SS and been denied; the court rejected these pleadings in part on the basis of testimony from Münzberger’s co-defendants – and found that not only was Münzberger zealous in his gas chamber duties but that there was no evidence of anything other than his cruelty toward the Jews
- We can add to the above notes based on the Düsseldorf courts judgment the following points made by Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966:
- Witness Eliasz Rosenberg testified that Münzberger, in Bryant’s words, “mistreated Jewish workers who did not in his view carry enough corpses on the stretchers [from the gas chambers] and shot work Jews as they toiled in the camp. He ordered his victims to strip themselves naked; he then ‘abused’ them before shooting them at the edge of the mass grave” (page 83)
- “Witness-survivor Lindwasser described [Münzberger] as ‘particularly cruel toward the victims whom he drove into the gas chamber; he shot them and mistreated them.’” (page 89)
- The court heard testimony from Münzberger contradicting Franz’s defense (the period in which Franz was at Treblinka) (page 96)
- Mathes Everhardt, Münzberger's attorney, “argued his client should be acquitted outright. Witness accusations against him were erroneous” and the meaning of Münzberger’s words - “You’re not doing it right” – to Horn had been misinterpreted (as we saw above, the court, agreed that some witness testimony against Münzberger in some cases was not sufficient to find him guilty but that other testimony had tied him to crimes – and that Münzberger had indeed encouraged more zeal among the camp SS in dispatching their duties in the exterminations, page 120)
- “Münzberger admitted assisting with gassing operations within the upper camp but denied shooting the woman and her children, insisting that all the Jews killed during his assignment at the curtain were dispatched in the gas chambers, not in shooting operations outside the formal procedure.” (page 216) Denying the shootings, denying individual zeal, and resting on formal procedure and orders were defense strategies developed in response to German law and the “subjective” definition of murder under that law. Basically Münzberger's defense was that he did participate in the extermination program but followed strict procedure and, as a good soldier, showed no inner disposition or will to murder. However, eyewitness Eliasz Rosenberg “testified that he personally witnessed Münzberger shoot the mother and her children with his pistol, then had the corpses laid on the grill for incineration.” (page 216) (Funny stuff, according to Maryzilla)
- The lay assessors panel “agreed with the Jewish witness-survivors, who unanimously described Münzberger as ‘treating the victims without human feeling, using his whip mercilessly against men, women, and children to fill every inch of the gas chambers.’” (page 216)
- The Düsseldorf court “found that the defendant [Münzberger] knew perfectly well that the Jews were being murdered for racial motives” and that Münzberger did so as part of the SS, “obliged to carry out” the policies and programs of the SS and Reich; in this sense, according to the court, Münzberger was “a small wheel in the cruel machinery of killing and tenaciously performed his assigned work” at the tunnel, at the curtain, and in corpse disposal (page 218)
- Otto Horn, quoted above, was found not guilty by the Düsseldorf court – not because he didn’t “do it” but because of duress in his case (the court found that there was sufficient evidence of his attempting to transfer out of his Aktion Reinhard assignment)
- Gustav Münzberger was convicted by the court of aiding and abetting in the murders of 100,000 or more people and sentenced to 12 years in prison
Münzberger's statements to the Düsseldorf court show how inadequate are the ideas that a testimony is either bogus or gospel and that if a person makes a false or wild claim, we should ignore his or her testimony in its entirety. Because of the subjective nature of German murder law and his own understanding of his role at Treblinka, Münzberger deemed that actions showing commitment to murder and passion were worse for him legally than helping with the gassing process, so he lied about shootings and his zeal and cruelty but admitted as a matter of fact the gassing operations. In other words, Münzberger lied to try to save his neck - successfully in fact - but at the same time he confirmed much other evidence about the Nazis' crime of mass murder at Treblinka, including evidence against some of his co-defendants.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:03 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I am through responding to montgomery, even when I see his posts in what's been quoted by you and others. He's ludicrous and vacuous and his act isn't worth the time and effort.

I will reply to you, however, Nessie.

Seems he can't handle your arguments Montgomery, which are quite profound. Darrin can't either and has scurried back behind his clock. Seems Mekanik wants to play with his pet Kelpie in the Loch. Roll over Kelpie, your tummy needs tickling. Flap about.
(my bold)

That... um, explains a lot. :lol:
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:11 pm

Nessie wrote:
Stat Mech posts a detailed explanation about witness testimony and the steam/gas narrative, not for the first time and that is all you can come up with. And you wonder why you get abused?!?

By steaming you clearly mean the Jewish lobster Scenario.
Image
A possible steaming survivor


The head banging machine at Treblinka or the electrified floors have not been touched on yet: that is to come. Though I do love the Atomic Jew Blaster: I want one, it can go with the Star Wars light Sabre.
Image
SM did come up with an explanation, but that explanation it appears was not presented to the Nuremberg judges. Hindsight bias is a great thing especially when it comes to perjury.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:20 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Stat Mech posts a detailed explanation about witness testimony and the steam/gas narrative, not for the first time and that is all you can come up with. And you wonder why you get abused?!?

By steaming you clearly mean the Jewish lobster Scenario.
Image
A possible steaming survivor


The head banging machine at Treblinka or the electrified floors have not been touched on yet: that is to come. Though I do love the Atomic Jew Blaster: I want one, it can go with the Star Wars light Sabre.
Image
SM did come up with an explanation, but that explanation it appears was not presented to the Nuremberg judges. Hindsight bias is a great thing especially when it comes to perjury.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:58 pm

Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:02 pm

You think s/he volunteered for his/her outing, or did they draw straws? :-P
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:02 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby montgomery » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:10 pm

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.


With their constant spamming and insults, they've become quite disappointing, but they've made their own beds. And then when Hans presented the video with the shadow on the wall that clinched one thing for me. They have no intention of being honest at all. Really disgusting behavior by a covey of precocious children pretending to be grownups.

Now let's prepare to hear eggs, the S.M., and the rest start screaming obscenities!

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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 pm

montgomery wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.


With their constant spamming and insults, they've become quite disappointing, but they've made their own beds. And then when Hans presented the video with the shadow on the wall that clinched one thing for me. They have no intention of being honest at all. Really disgusting behavior by a covey of precocious children pretending to be grownups.

Now let's prepare to hear eggs, the S.M., and the rest start screaming obscenities!
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:52 am

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Stat Mech posts a detailed explanation about witness testimony and the steam/gas narrative, not for the first time and that is all you can come up with. And you wonder why you get abused?!?

By steaming you clearly mean the Jewish lobster Scenario.
Image
A possible steaming survivor


The head banging machine at Treblinka or the electrified floors have not been touched on yet: that is to come. Though I do love the Atomic Jew Blaster: I want one, it can go with the Star Wars light Sabre.
Image
SM did come up with an explanation, but that explanation it appears was not presented to the Nuremberg judges. Hindsight bias is a great thing especially when it comes to perjury.

This is your best? Jesus wept.

In fact - andI told you this in this very thread earlier - the prosecution case that was presented at Nuremberg convinced that tribunal, as it wrote in its final judgment, that Jews were killed at Treblinka by gas:
"all who were not fit to work were destroyed in gas chambers and their bodies burnt. Certain concentration camps such as Treblinka and Auschwitz were set aside for this main purpose." Note that the judgment said "gas chambers," not steamed to death like lobsters. It never mentioned "steam."

To help you understand what a fool you are making of yourself, here is a link to Samuel Rajzman's testimony during the IMT, on 26 February 1946, where he supports the prosecution's case that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Treblinka.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:55 am

VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.

However, mocking Jews with stereotypes and ridicule does make you an anti-Semite, as does your belief that there is a group, Jews, whose actions are to be disliked.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.

However, mocking Jews with stereotypes and ridicule does make you an anti-Semite, as does your belief that there is a group, Jews, whose actions are to be disliked.

Much of the holohoax has probably more to do with the Soviets than Jews who were likely victims of this scam as well. However, they have played it pretty well. Even mr Netanyahu admitted that. Showing the world a scam is not anti anything, it is showing the world a scam. Playing their ethnic card is also bankrupt as the world is seeing through the 70 years of deception.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:03 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Balmoral95 wrote:Must be hell on him to keep most of the anti-semitism all bottled up 8-)

No one is anti-semitic, disliking the actions of a group of people doesn't mean hating them. Bringing a group of liars to task does not mean hating others of the same race or religion. Any group of people that made the same absurd claims to benefit from the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent people would be treated exactly the same way.

However, mocking Jews with stereotypes and ridicule does make you an anti-Semite, as does your belief that there is a group, Jews, whose actions are to be disliked.

Much of the holohoax has probably more to do with the Soviets than Jews who were likely victims of this scam as well. However, they have played it pretty well. Even mr Netanyahu admitted that.

When you have nothing to say about the topic at hand - it is clear that you and montgomery are beyond flummoxed at this point - you like changing the subject with wild and unsupported charges. Feel free to keep it up. However, I will point out that you started posting in a thread dedicated to discussing this very proposition, in the case of the Einsatzgruppen, and you utterly failed to muster a single piece of evidence, explain any of the few, lame assertions you blurted out, and decided against dealing with any of the evidence and arguments presented to you.

Forgive people here for laughing along as you prove over and over that your claims are vacuous, if noisy, and you are basically a warped kind of experimental humorist.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:07 am

After I posted this, please tell me, this guy didn't truly post this:
VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Stat Mech posts a detailed explanation about witness testimony and the steam/gas narrative, not for the first time and that is all you can come up with. And you wonder why you get abused?!?

By steaming you clearly mean the Jewish lobster Scenario.
Image
A possible steaming survivor

And montgomery, judging from scrmbldggs' quotation, didn't decide to perch on his soapbox and do another bad impression of Emily Post?
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:12 am

I bet s/he also won't climb on it to tell VFX that s/he should have told you that there apparently was a cross edit/addition to his/her post when you quoted and answered it.
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Re: The Action Reinhard Camps

Postby VFX » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Samuel Rajzman's testimony during the IMT, on 26 February 1946, where he supports the prosecution's case that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Treblinka.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-27-46.asp
Our Exhibit Number USSR-8 (Document Number USSR-8) has already been added to the file of the case. It is the report of the Extraordinary State Commission of the Soviet Union on the monstrous crimes of the German Government in Oswieczim. The introductory part of this report contains the following excerpt, which the members of the Tribunal will find on Page 196 of the document book. I read one paragraph only:
"Special hospitals, surgical blocks, histological laboratories, and other departments were set up in the camp. But they were intended not for the treatment but for the extermination

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How should we understand that? Were they thrown into the ovens alive or were they killed by other means before they were burned?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: The children were thrown in alive. Their cries could be heard all over the camp. It is hard to say how many there were.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Please tell us, Witness, why was it that you yourself remained alive in Treblinka?

RAJZMAN: I was already quite undressed, and had to pass through this Himmelfahrtstrasse to the gas chambers. Some 8,000 Jews had arrived with my transport from Warsaw. At the last minute before we moved toward the street an engineer, Galevski, an old friend of mine, whom I had known in Warsaw for many years, caught sight of me. He was overseer of workers among the Jews. He told me that I should turn back from the street; and as they needed an interpreter for Hebrew, French, Russian, Polish, and German, he managed to obtain permission to liberate me.
Oh the male version of Irene Zisblatt: he was about to be executed and could just walk out of there. Yeah right.
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