So who do you believe?

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
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Upton_O_Goode
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So who do you believe?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:16 pm

The hierarchy that has obfuscated, concealed, and denied for generations....

or a man who was there and saw it all?

I'd hate to see Francis I replaced. As Popes go, he's the best I've seen in 55 years. But he continues to protect Cardinal Law-Unto-Himself in the Vatican. I think he might at least hint to this fugitive from justice in Boston that 16 years is too long to be hiding out, and maybe he should think about going back and facing trial.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:15 pm

As a general rule, in any social group of sufficient size, one person in ten is an out and out arsehole. This applies to Catholic priests as well as every other group. This means 10% of those priests will do horrible things. The reason people respond so badly to the fact that this has been discovered is that the church has created ridiculous expectations about their behaviour. Globally, there are over 400,000 Catholic priests. This means about 40,000 total arseholes.

It is predictable that this principle also applies to protestant clergy. One in ten of them are also arseholes. It applies to Hollywood people, leading to the "me too" movement. It applies to everyone. Part of the problem is that the general public have lived in a fantasy, in which clergy are seen as good. But society needs to treat clergy just like everyone else, keep an eye on them, and lock up the real bad ones.

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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:26 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:The hierarchy that has obfuscated, concealed, and denied for generations....

or a man who was there and saw it all?

I'd hate to see Francis I replaced. As Popes go, he's the best I've seen in 55 years. But he continues to protect Cardinal Law-Unto-Himself in the Vatican. I think he might at least hint to this fugitive from justice in Boston that 16 years is too long to be hiding out, and maybe he should think about going back and facing trial.
Could be somebody's got dirt on El Papa.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:47 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:The hierarchy that has obfuscated, concealed, and denied for generations....

or a man who was there and saw it all?

I'd hate to see Francis I replaced. As Popes go, he's the best I've seen in 55 years. But he continues to protect Cardinal Law-Unto-Himself in the Vatican. I think he might at least hint to this fugitive from justice in Boston that 16 years is too long to be hiding out, and maybe he should think about going back and facing trial.
Could be somebody's got dirt on El Papa.
Hadn't occurred to me, but yeah, I see how that could work. There's pretty clear evidence that the Holy Father did down in Argentina exactly what Cardinal Law did in Boston. So, if he were even to try to kick Law out of Vatican City, Law would see that they both got totally exposed. I don't like the way this is headed, though. The conservatives in the hierarchy are still back in the time of Pius IX (whom John Paul II venerated just the way Trump venerates Andy Jackson), and they'd seize any excuse to kick Francis out and put their own man in his place. A Church trying to run itself on those principles would be as bad as the Evangelical Protestants.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:27 am

And the pews would be even more vacant, I hope.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by gorgeous » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:19 am

they are all pedos .....
The CIA and the Vatican's Intelligence Apparatus - Church and State


churchandstate.org.uk/2013/04/cia-and-the-vaticans-intelligence-apparatus/




It was in this last regard that the CIA supported factions within the Catholic church that were instrumental in promoting and electing the current pope, John Paul II, ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by gorgeous » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:19 am

The Secret Lives of the Vatican's Gay Cardinals, Monks, and Other ...


https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013 ... ch-vatican





Pope John XII, who reigned from 955 to 964, was accused of having sex with men and ... At a small party of gay monks and their friends in Rome last summer, ...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by gorgeous » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:20 am

Teenage Girl 'Kidnapped For Vatican Sex Parties' - Spokane, North ...


http://www.khq.com/story/18608695/teena ... ex-parties


"Parties were organized, with a Vatican gendarme acting as the 'recruiter' of the girls," Amorth told La Stampa, according to a translation by The Telegraph.
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:56 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And the pews would be even more vacant, I hope.
Me too, but it's like trying to get all the sugar out of a sack. There will always be a few grains that stay there, no matter what. I hasten to add that I'm happy to see people going to church, as long as it doesn't turn them into authoritarian busybodies. The "modernist" churches that the Evangelicals and traditional Catholics despise have taken the very best parts of Christianity as their model; I like them.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:11 am

gorgeous wrote:they are all pedos .....
The CIA and the Vatican's Intelligence Apparatus - Church and State


churchandstate.org.uk/2013/04/cia-and-the-vaticans-intelligence-apparatus/




It was in this last regard that the CIA supported factions within the Catholic church that were instrumental in promoting and electing the current pope, John Paul II, ...
Wow! And that was written 35 years ago. It foreshadows a lot. Many thanks for the link to that site, which I didn't know about. What the article doesn't say is that the CIA and the Vatican helped a lot of Nazis get safely to South America in 1945.

It's odd that I distinctly remember reading articles in the newspapers I was delivering in 1956 talking about the defection of a couple of American spies. The article said one of them was homosexual, and that was a good reason for getting homosexuals out of government posts. (Such as...oh, I don't know...director of the FBI?) It pointed out that homosexuals were just too easy to blackmail. And that was true, back then; it wouldn't be now.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:20 am

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
WWII Resources. Primary sources.
The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Demythologizing the attack.
Hyperwar. Hypertext history of the Second World War.
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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by busterggi » Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:30 pm

gorgeous wrote:they are all pedos .....
The CIA and the Vatican's Intelligence Apparatus - Church and State


churchandstate.org.uk/2013/04/cia-and-the-vaticans-intelligence-apparatus/




It was in this last regard that the CIA supported factions within the Catholic church that were instrumental in promoting and electing the current pope, John Paul II, ...

I thought they were all reptoids.

I wish you folks who know all the secrets of the universe would get your stories to agree.

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Re: So who do you believe?

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:04 pm

Thanks for the link. I never realized how many of these there were. One would think some news would leak out about conditions there. A commission of the Presidium appointed by Khrushchev in 1956 found that during the two years 1937 and 1938, an average of 2121 people were arrested every day and 934 were shot. These numbers came from the files of the NKVD itself, which kept very meticulous records.

And yet, even Einstein believed that the Moscow Trials were plausible. Well, he's entitled to be naïve in some areas.
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