Priestly Paedophiles

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Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:11 pm

Soo… if there are 300 priest paedophiles in that part of Pennsylvania, just how many priest paedophiles are there in the US? And then in the rest of the world?

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 am

It's utterly horrific.
But what we know from past large cases of pedophilia is that the perpetrators organize themselves, by sharing porn and advice through the internet. I would assume that if similar cases of organized massive child abuse was happening in other states, the Pennsylvania priests would have some connection with the pedophiles there, something the investigation would have uncovered evidence of.
We can hope that this was the worst case in the US. But it is almost certainly not the worst case in the World, especially not in developing countries.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Gord » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:31 am

They may not all be paedophiles by strict definition, since some of them had sexual relations with post-pubescent teens over the age of 13 (paedophilia is defined as sex with prepubescent children of 13 years or less). For instance, two of the victims were described here as being 15 and 17 years old, respectively. A stricter term might be hebephilia or ephebophilia, although there is overlap between the categories (since these things depend on a specific physiological appearance related to age, and age-related appearance can vary from individual to individual).

Just being pedantic. :P Carry on!
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:20 am

I can see it now... The Pope defends HEP... Hebephilia, Ephebophilia, and Paedophilia - in multiple languages and cultures. Carry on indeed.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:47 am

RICO time?
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:RICO time?
If only the Catholic Church and pope could be charged with such...

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Wordbird » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:12 am

I think it's not illogical to ask if there's something about religion that's attracting these people.

I often wonder (though I don't conclude) why the strictest religions with the greatest claims to the highest morality seem to attract the worst people. I don't think it's just about Catholic priests being unable to get married.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:13 am

I think they found a protective group early on and it became an institution. One pope found someone useful despite their ... habits. He knew others and suggested they "sign up". It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by OlegTheBatty » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:21 pm

Power corrupts.
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:29 pm

CNN has had their talking heads asking whether illegal actions which are disclosed in confessionals should be reported by the priest. Apparently, the Catholic rule is to not `out` the perp – placing their religion above the law. IMO, the priest should either out the perp – or failing to be able to do so due to his religious convictions – turn himself in for the crime on the basis of being a co-conspirator. For indeed he is, since he gives absolution to the criminal, permitting a guilt-free repetition of the crime.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:09 am

I doubt that priests are any worse than other sectors of the male population. The problem is that they are not any better.

The are about 420,000 catholic priests globally. If one in 100 is an evil pedophile, that is 4,200 evil pedophile priests, and that is probably about the rate of evil pedophiles among the general male population.

The problem is that people expected better from priests and they are no different to the general run of the mill imperfect humans everywhere else.

The British estimate of men with pedophile interests is one in 35. If two thirds of those guys do not act on that interest, that leaves 1 in 100 to be evil pedophiles, which is really a guess, but probably not far off the mark. Priests are simply no better than everyone else.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:59 am

Priests are, on average, worse - if only because of opportunity and impunity.

Taking the vow puts them in a position of power and shields them from consequences. What we also learned from Philadelphia, it also plugs them into a network of other pedophiles or at least people who are aware of what is going on and who will protect the perpetrators - which other official organization can you join that as its policy will not tell the police about child abuse in its ranks?
On average, priests might be not worse than others, but they have better access to kids and can get away with it for longer.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:53 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I doubt that priests are any worse than other sectors of the male population. The problem is that they are not any better.

The are about 420,000 catholic priests globally. If one in 100 is an evil pedophile, that is 4,200 evil pedophile priests, and that is probably about the rate of evil pedophiles among the general male population.

The problem is that people expected better from priests and they are no different to the general run of the mill imperfect humans everywhere else.

The British estimate of men with pedophile interests is one in 35. If two thirds of those guys do not act on that interest, that leaves 1 in 100 to be evil pedophiles, which is really a guess, but probably not far off the mark. Priests are simply no better than everyone else.
These figures seem plausible. That's why EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network), the Catholic version of Fox News, was so emphatic that "only" one percent of priests were abusers. This was a neat PR stunt, since it allowed them to ignore that 100% of bishops were facilitators of the abusers. They never would face the fact that this was the real issue.

The depth of the problem appears when you consider the amount of pressure put on the victims and their parents "not to cause a scandal." That enormously added to the stress these families were already suffering.

The real problem is the claim of the Church to be a Law Unto Itself, judging all and judged by none. In a modern society, we simply can't have a privileged institution that doesn't have to live by the laws that apply to everyone else. Only religion is granted this privilege in the US, and its position is getting even stronger, as conservative clerics push the idea that they are "persecuted" because they can't force other people to listen to their prayers on public occasions. (And, in fact, they can and do force us to listen to them ad nauseam!) The fact thata man is now suing his former employers, who fired him for refusing to join a Bible study group at work, will be considered further evidence of the persecution of Christians!

My home state of Vermont allows people who claim a "religiously based" objection to vaccination to omit it for their children. Never mind that the children of those people constitute a threat to the health of other people's children. The law specifically disallows a "philosophical" objection. The cretins who populate the legislature never apparently considered that anybody can say their objection is religiously based. There's no way to check up on that. It makes the whole law a sham.

But it's par for the course. Our lone representative in Congress, Peter Welch, voted to allow people to opt out of getting medical insurance, thus essentially destroying Obamacare. Is there a stupidity test people have to take to run for political office, or does one simply have to check his brains at the door when entering a legislative chamber?
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:42 pm

The CNN portion I watched was focused more on priests in confessionals – rather than priests as paedophiles themselves. Imagine this – a non-priest paedophile confesses to child rape and the priest asks who the victim is. The paedophile says it is the priests` own son/daughter/nephew/niece and the priest simply absolves the paedophile since that is what the church demands. Right. It isn`t going to happen. That priest is going to take action. So why not when it isn`t his own?

Priests as paedophiles is bad enough – that 1%, but they also abet non-priest paedophiles by absolution, removing the guilt that drove the paedophile to confess in the first place, thus enabling future crimes. The problem as I see it is that the Catholic Church is a criminal organisation – not that all members are criminals in their own right.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:41 am

Whatever the merits and demerits of aural confession (I never particularly minded it when I was a practicing Catholic), the whole system would break down if not for the seal of the confessional. Even worse scenarios can be imagined: A man comes into the confessional, says he's planning to kill the mayor that night. The priest is powerless to do anything about it, one would think. Even notifying the mayor to be careful violates the seal, and if the intended murderer is caught, the priest has committed an excommunication/defrocking offense. Still, I wonder what I would do in his position.

But the system would break down very quickly if priests were obligated to inform the police of abuse, as doctors and social workers are. It really isn't their job, in the confessional, to enforce the law, and law enforcement just needs to get along without them, which it would quickly have to do anyway if they started ratting out the abusers.

Incidentally, there are women who have an obsession with seducing priests, and one of their techniques is to go to confession and ask the priest to come to them in their car out on the parking lot. I wonder how many priests have succumbed to that lure; at least, it doesn't violate the seal of the confessional, unless they get caught and he has to explain how he knew she'd be out there waiting for him, and willing.
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:51 am

Yes, but what harm comes if a system that abets, breaks down? Break it down, by all means, break it down.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:52 pm

TJrandom wrote:Yes, but what harm comes if a system that abets, breaks down? Break it down, by all means, break it down.
I can't argue with that.

I wonder how many Catholics would really miss those Saturday afternoons/evenings waiting in queue and handicapping which priest will spare you the sermon and get right to the absolution. You want to be there to watch which "phone booth" they go into so you can choose the queue you want. But I'm recalling what was 50 years ago. I wonder how many Catholics still go to confession. I heard rumors, even back in the 60s that individual confession was probably not going to last much longer anyway, due to a shortage of priests. I imagine the number of faithful has also decreased, so it may still be possible to do it. What I heard was that the whole system was going to be replaced by a community exercise, in which the flock would ponder its sins and feel true contrition, while the priest pronounced a blanket absolution. But I've been missing from action so long that I don't know if that ever came about anywhere.

True story: While waiting my turn to confess, I once heard a priest thundering at the penitent ahead of me in a voice that could be heard all the way to the rectory, "YOU. DID. WHAT??!!" Try to imagine the poor penitent now sitting there and having to repeat whatever it was. :mrgreen:
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Austin Harper » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:07 pm

I might be mistaken, but I believe priests are allowed to keep what the hear in the confession booth confidential unless there is a clear and present danger to the confessor or somebody else. So if they said they were going to kill the mayor, the priest would have to call the police. I also don't think somebody would pre-confess to something like that because you can't be absolved of a sin you haven't committed.
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:48 am

"On Thursday alone, the New York State attorney general issued subpoenas to all eight Catholic dioceses in the state as part of a sweeping civil investigation into whether institutions covered up allegations of sexual abuse of children, officials said. The attorney general in New Jersey announced a criminal investigation."

"In the three weeks since the release of the Pennsylvania report, the attorneys general of Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska and New Mexico have also said they will investigate sex abuse by Catholic priests in their states...".

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/06/nyre ... abuse.html
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Gord » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:20 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
"On Thursday alone, the New York State attorney general issued subpoenas to all eight Catholic dioceses in the state as part of a sweeping civil investigation into whether institutions covered up allegations of sexual abuse of children, officials said. The attorney general in New Jersey announced a criminal investigation."

"In the three weeks since the release of the Pennsylvania report, the attorneys general of Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska and New Mexico have also said they will investigate sex abuse by Catholic priests in their states...".

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/06/nyre ... abuse.html
Gee, I hope they don't hire Jehovah's Witnesses as lawyers: http://theweek.com/speedreads/737910/je ... illion-far
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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:35 pm

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by Wordbird » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:48 am

Tom Palven wrote:Priestly pedophiles in Germany:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... LS1X2?il=0
They're clearly doing it because in this universe, they can't cast anything above 2nd-level spells without it.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:11 am

It's a good thing that the Catholic Church has such a crappy PR department:

part of the reason why all these abuses come to light now is the decision of the Church a while back to no longer block any outside investigation with the full force of their lobbying-arm.
If they had come out preemptively, stating their new policy of transparency and cooperation with law enforcement, their will to clear house, admitting that probably a shocking number of abuse cases will come to like and do a constant Mea Culpa, they would by now be past the worst of the PR disaster and stop hemorrhaging members.
As it is, it looks (falsely) like things are worse than ever before and that Catholics should jump of the boat, young boys and girls first.

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Re: Priestly Paedophiles

Post by TJrandom » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:38 am

But are they losing tribe members?

Edit... OK, so a google search indicates they are - but is a trend from the 70s at least. So, are they losing since these recent reports came out? Probably too soon to tell...