Trump's Tariffs

Fun with supply and demand.
Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5431
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Trump's Tariffs

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:28 pm

The implementation of Adam Smith's views on free trade expressed in his book The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, 1776, is credited by many with advancing England's industrial revolution.

In 1850 British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli proclaimed that "protection is not only dead, but damned."

But not in Donald Trump's world.

The following article describes part of the can of worms that Trump's tariffs will open:
https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2018/03 ... turducken/
Last edited by Tom Palven on Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
OutOfBreath
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:38 pm
Custom Title: Persistent ponderer
Location: Norway

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:39 pm

Good point about the internation nature of car-building.
Meh - on the belly-ache about fuel efficiency standards.

Peace
Dan
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:56 pm

Free Trade mostly benefits World Monopolies the providence of World Powers. It prevents competition from overseas upstarts.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5431
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Free Trade mostly benefits World Monopolies the providence of World Powers. It prevents competition from overseas upstarts.
If you don't want free trade you must want controlled trade, correct?

Who do you want to control it? Donnie? Congress?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:29 pm

TP: good point. the standard alternative is "Fair Trade" but both terms suffer the same malady of being too general. The next layer of analysis has to be looked at: who is being hurt vs helped by any set of regulations/ideas. Here: its the small nation startups that cannot compete in Free or Fair Trade situations, so they employ protectionists Tariffs to protect and grow their native industries. All start up countries do this: EG: the USA. Born on Tariffs, not Free Trade.

So......Free/Fair Trade once large enough to sign the treaties and so forth. I suppose laissez faire capitalism for those who choose not to sign said treaties.

Note: in General: I agree with Trumps recognition that having a domestic Steel and Aluminum (all strategic resources) IS REQUIRED to maintain first nation status. I doubt he has the details correct.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5431
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Tom Palven » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:59 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:TP: good point. the standard alternative is "Fair Trade" but both terms suffer the same malady of being too general. The next layer of analysis has to be looked at: who is being hurt vs helped by any set of regulations/ideas. Here: its the small nation startups that cannot compete in Free or Fair Trade situations, so they employ protectionists Tariffs to protect and grow their native industries. All start up countries do this: EG: the USA. Born on Tariffs, not Free Trade.

So......Free/Fair Trade once large enough to sign the treaties and so forth. I suppose laissez faire capitalism for those who choose not to sign said treaties.

Note: in General: I agree with Trumps recognition that having a domestic Steel and Aluminum (all strategic resources) IS REQUIRED to maintain first nation status. I doubt he has the details correct.
So, in answer to my quewtion, you want Donnie to control trade.

I don't think that Adam Smith woould have thought that this is a good idea.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:29 pm

Not to quibble, but no one controls trade. You make your input and stimulate different responses. As Trump shows: put a Tariff on Germany Steel and you drive the EU into the arms of Russia and China. But accepting your terms: yes. Trade is not the Primary Interest over all other subjects. National War Making/Defense takes priority over trade. True for USA...and all other countries to. Are you "controlling trade" when you put a tariff on two specific products? Why don't the Free Trade agreements have exceptions for such products??? Do we know they don't????? Why do I keep hearing that xyz country has a Tariff on USA goods, but the USA does not reciprocate...and doesn't even sue in the WTO to punish those third world countries that do that?..........and so on.

Adam Smith as stated was for what benefited England. Free Trade is just a better label for tyrannizing your less capable colonies. Wake up.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:41 pm

The US wants to sell goods, especially weapons,to the rest of the world. By starting a trade war, it drives potential buyers towards the EU and Russia.

User avatar
Poodle
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9669
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm
Custom Title: Regular sleeper
Location: NE corner of my living room

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Poodle » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:28 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Not to quibble, but no one controls trade. You make your input and stimulate different responses. As Trump shows: put a Tariff on Germany Steel and you drive the EU into the arms of Russia and China. But accepting your terms: yes. Trade is not the Primary Interest over all other subjects. National War Making/Defense takes priority over trade. True for USA...and all other countries to. Are you "controlling trade" when you put a tariff on two specific products? Why don't the Free Trade agreements have exceptions for such products??? Do we know they don't????? Why do I keep hearing that xyz country has a Tariff on USA goods, but the USA does not reciprocate...and doesn't even sue in the WTO to punish those third world countries that do that?..........and so on.

Adam Smith as stated was for what benefited England. Free Trade is just a better label for tyrannizing your less capable colonies. Wake up.
No one 'controls' trade - but there are a lot of entities who can influence it. A US tariff on steel imports does not drive the EU anywhere except away from the US - the EU and US GDPs are approximately equal. Trump's tariffs isolate the US. The rest of the world adjusts. US tariffs mean that China, Europe, Russia, Australasia, Indonesia - all huge markets - trade amongst themselves and it is Trump's US which ends up isolated. The man is as thick as two short planks.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:31 pm

The main "problem" in this analysis, as I understand it, which is defective and partial at best, is that "basically" most if not all other nations do have tariffs by one name or another. VAT in EU for instance.

So, I think, absent the propaganda: trade like all other national interests proceed according to every participants view of their own best interests. Which may or may not have various kinds of impact on the USA.

Again because I think it is relevant: ALL nations have a legitimate interest in maintain core abilities to support their national defense. If its a choice between National Defense and "trade"....I don't think the answer is so obvious. Just to start with, if a limited tariff is going to drive the EU to Russia & China...it looks like it is going to drive trade closer between the USA and the UK?.........who knows?????.......and what "is" best for the world?

Same as it always was.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28749
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:54 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:The US wants to sell goods, especially weapons,to the rest of the world. By starting a trade war, it drives potential buyers towards the EU and Russia.
Yep.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28749
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:07 pm

Free trade is the only way to go. The basic tenant of capitalism is that Laissez-faire economics forces competition and only efficient production survives.

What Trump's tariffs do, is allow for inefficient USA and steel and aluminium manufacturers to survive in the short term. It simply shifts an inefficiency to the long term and will hurt the USA's internal production in the long run. This is basic economics.

I remember a economics lecture from a Vietnamese communist economist who was making fun that Communist Russia was feeding loaves of bread to cows, because it had a controlled economy and could not become efficient.

That being said, the USA does have higher man-hour costs and either it goes for more robots, has more innovate products or lowers its standard of living, to remain competitive in manufacture.


As for Adam Smith, he is also the patron saint of taxation law. :D
http://economicsconcepts.com/canons_of_taxation.htm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:13 pm

Trump just signed the Tariff while exempting Canada and Mexico.

Free Trade vs whatever else: "Its the only Way to Go." Sorry. Its not as there are other ways implicit in the very formulation. Only way to go ........................FOR WHAT? And note, that WHAT is not the only important value to pursue.

What about National Security?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11240
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:38 pm

Lets see now - - - build a wall on the Mexican border for national security - - - exempt Mexican steel from tariffs for national security - - - :dizzy:
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11638
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:48 am

Trump is an economic traitor to the USA. He is setting up structures to sabotage the American economy. You cannot run a healthy and competitive economy while surrounding it with cotton wool to 'protect ' it from outside competition . What suffers in the long run is American wealth generation.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:21 am

So politically correct you are Lance. No pros and cons in your mind? Free Trade is all Pros and No Cons??? There is no issue touching on National Security resources/capability???

You don't even make an argument. Just a statement of faith and then endless repetition.

"Sad."
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:11 am

Free Trade is the most efficient way highly developed and specialized countries can deal with each other.
It is devastating to nascent industries in smaller, poorer, less developed countries.

Sheltering your economy through tariffs (and better yet, regulating the flow of money in and out of the country) is the only way to lift a pre-industrial country out of poverty and into the role of a player of the global market.

So instituting tariffs is the admission that your companies can't cut it on their own on the open market. Which is fine, as long as you use the money generated by the tariffs to make your sheltered companies more competitive, so that after a set time the tariffs can be lifted. Otherwise, tariffs are worse than a costly publicity stunt: they actively weaken your economy.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:26 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Free Trade is the most efficient way highly developed and specialized countries can deal with each other.
Countries is a legal construct. Its actually individuals within countries who are maximizing their positions.

IN EVERY SUBJECT: there are winners and losers. Who benefits and who is hurt? The balance: vested interests.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:30 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
IN EVERY SUBJECT: there are winners and losers. Who benefits and who is hurt? The balance: vested interests.

If you think so, you haven't understood the Theory of comparative advantage.
Admittedly, it only works under certain circumstance (between highly industrialized and specialized actors), but it does create a win-win situation.
Think about it: if trade was a win-lose activity, the world economy would never increase in size, since everything one side gains the other loses.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5431
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:40 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Free Trade is the most efficient way highly developed and specialized countries can deal with each other.
It is devastating to nascent industries in smaller, poorer, less developed countries.
I don't think that this is true.

For example, the Pakistani government has complained for years that it doesn't want more US weaponry and other military aid; that what it wants is a reduction in the tariffs on cottom fabrics and clothing. Pakistan is a less-developed country, although textiles are not a nascent industry there. Can you provide examples for your statement?

I agree with your next post that free trade is, as Adam Smith explained, a win-win proposition.
Last edited by Tom Palven on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:41 am

EM: you are still using an over generalized gloss on a subject with many sparkles. "Someone" is hurt in every win-win situation. On some "macro" level....its win win, but burrow down and you will find hurt hurt as well. But summing up IS a valid exercise..........just don't forget the more detailed view.

for instance: free trade win win situations often totally screw over subsistence farmers. They then move to the cities. Then some revolt.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:14 am

Every economic success story is an example:

Great Britain built its industry by preventing India and the America colonies from competing via tariffs - which was the reason for the American Revolution in the first place.
The US did the same and is still doing in with its patent laws.
The EU, Japan and the US are all shielding their agriculture and ranching business from the open market.
The South Korea success story is one of shielding its industries, especially car making and electronics, for almost three decades before they became powerful enough to compete.
And of course the rise of China is one of 100% government shielded growth through stringent control of money flows.
Meanwhile, the IMF and WTO have forbidden African countries from regulating its markets, which is why they never got out of the resource curse.

Show me any case in which a newcomer managed to compete on an already established market without outside help.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:29 am

EM--the only "message" i get from your post is: There is no such thing as free trade. On that, we agree.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:EM--the only "message" i get from your post is: There is no such thing as free trade. On that, we agree.
no, that is not the message.
Comparative advantage means that both sides of an agreement benefit if each side focuses on what they do best instead of competing with each other. It is wasteful if each actor tries to do everything themselves.
However, Free Trade is only sustainable if the partners have a more or less balanced import/export ratio.

Otherwise, the net importer is better of using tariffs and other means to balance the value of the transfer of goods.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:03 am

EM---I do agree comparative advantage is a very real thing. But as always: what are the Pros and Cons? A famous example of CA is Egypt growing wheat. Takes too much water...so cheaper to import wheat from Russia. Result: cheaper more efficient wheat but Russian gets pissed off and stops shipping wheat. Egypt is screwed.

Same with all other "basic necessities." Taking advantge of World Trade is fine...until world trade takes off in some other direction.

TRADE IS NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL OF WHAT LIFE/NATIONAL PURPOSE is all about.

People are so attracted to dogma.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:18 am

You are right, of course, that trade isn't the be-all and end-all of international cooperation. If trade isn't balanced, it might actually destabilize the world more than no trade would.

A major problem is the lack of long-term thinking, both in the winners and the losers of the current global economy.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5431
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:21 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Every economic success story is an example:

Great Britain built its industry by preventing India and the America colonies from competing via tariffs - which was the reason for the American Revolution in the first place.
Benjamin Disraeli, as mentioned in the OP, thought that England prospered because it ended protectionism after the American Revolution, which coincided with the publication of Adam Smith's book in 1776.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:36 am

Tom Palven wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Every economic success story is an example:

Great Britain built its industry by preventing India and the America colonies from competing via tariffs - which was the reason for the American Revolution in the first place.
Benjamin Disraeli, as mentioned in the OP, thought that England prospered because it ended protectionism after the American Revolution, which coincided with the publication of Adam Smith's book in 1776.
Too bad that the facts disagree. Britain forced other markets to open (see Opium wars), but it never opened its own market.
Same thing with the US or Europe talking about free markets, which means: do what we say, not what we do.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:48 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:You are right, of course, that trade isn't the be-all and end-all of international cooperation. If trade isn't balanced, it might actually destabilize the world more than no trade would.

A major problem is the lack of long-term thinking, both in the winners and the losers of the current global economy.
Ha, ha........"thanks"........at first blush, I agree. Then I look closer and find you have said nothing that is correct.

1. Trade is never balanced whatever that even means. ie: Every country in the world (I guess) is in net import/export balance. Countries are indeed in ascension or decline....based on many factors.

2. So...trade is not balanced and the world is destablized whatever that means in detail sufficient to give it meaning...

3. No trade? A hypothetical void of import as it could not exist.

4. There is lot's of short term and longer term thinking.......but the goal is NOT to achieve any balance but rather to maximize one's own personal position. Lots of the "harm" you might be thinking of is exactly brought on by the most effective/achieved long term thinking.

AGAIN: IT IS ALWAYS A MIX OF WHO GAIN AND WHO LOSES. Balance/Free/Fair is just rhetorical propaganda for other outcomes desired.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11240
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:12 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Every economic success story is an example:


Show me any case in which a newcomer managed to compete on an already established market without outside help.
Botswana
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:19 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Every economic success story is an example:


Show me any case in which a newcomer managed to compete on an already established market without outside help.
Botswana
I agree that Botswana is a success story compared to many other African countries - but it hasn't gotten beyond selling its resources yet: no significant value-adding industry that would be a test for competition on the global market.
So I won't take this as an example of an economic success story under Free Market conditions.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11240
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Every economic success story is an example:


Show me any case in which a newcomer managed to compete on an already established market without outside help.
Botswana
I agree that Botswana is a success story compared to many other African countries - but it hasn't gotten beyond selling its resources yet: no significant value-adding industry that would be a test for competition on the global market.
So I won't take this as an example of an economic success story under Free Market conditions.
Uh-huh
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:39 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: Uh-huh
So....the story of Botswana will remain a mystery?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11638
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:06 pm

My country is an example. In 1984, we had a major problem. High debt levels and major economic problems. A new government came into power and entirely removed protection. Our farmers and industries had to survive in open competition with the rest of the world. The result has been steady economic growth, and a very sound economy developed.

There was TV item last night about Trumps tariffs. From memory, (the exact numbers may be slightly different) it said that 150,000 steel workers may benefit, but 5 million workers in industries dependent on cheap steel will suffer.

User avatar
OlegTheBatty
Has No Life
Posts: 11240
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 pm
Custom Title: Uppity Atheist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:23 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote: Uh-huh
So....the story of Botswana will remain a mystery?
Not to people with googlefu.

But to summarize:

The region of southern Africa inhabited by the Tswana, a few smaller tribes, plus the Kalahari Desert was ignored by the Colonials because it was deemed worthless. The Voortrekkers might have settled had there been enough of them to penetrate much beyond Johannesburg, but there weren't.
The Tswana et al were left to their own devices.

~ 1905, German incursions from Southwest Afrika alarmed the Tswana sufficiently to apply to the British government for assistance. Several years later, the British sent a military contingent (I'm not sure how big, probably about a regiment) whose sole purpose was to prevent the Germans from infiltrating the "Bechuanaland Protectorate". Governing was left to the Tswana chiefs. There was never any colonial presence. AFAIK, it's the only part of Africa.

1965, independence and the creation of Botswana, with a government on the British Parliamentary model, very similar to Canada's. Very stable. Botswana is the only country in Africa that has never had any kind of coup, military takeover, or other kind of non-elected government. Legal elections every time. But dirt poor. Literally. Subsistence level agriculture.

In the early '70's diamonds were discovered in the west. The government owns 51% of the shares in the corporations, the rest in the private sector. They pay good wages, and used the profits to build up the infrastructure - schools, roads, hospitals. Botswana now has one of the best standards of living in Africa.

Mistakes they did not make:

Letting the private sector have all the resources - Botswana gets its share.*
Militarizing
Borrowing from the IMF

EM is correct to the extent that Botswana does not have a manufacturing economy, but that is far from all there is to it.

*Very innovative for the early '70's. Still not copied much, although it seems to me that Morales in Bolivia is trying to. Compare to the 'success' of free enterprise in the rest of Africa.
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:05 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote: EM is correct to the extent that Botswana does not have a manufacturing economy, but that is far from all there is to it.
Good on Botswana. Not manufacturing, but still allowing for agriculture and resource trading. Diamonds are a totally controlled commodity...not allowed to be freely traded. Kept in stockpiles to manipulate the price and so forth.

To me.........just another example that Free Trade is not the be all and end all as is pushed on the public all the time.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11638
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:39 pm

Bobbo

Monopolies, as opposed to free trade, when effective will enrich the minority. Diamonds are a case in point, since they are produced by a very small part of the world. Thus it is possible to make an effective monopoly and enrich those behind the monopoly. A very selfish approach.

My view is wider. I am not interested in making a small number of people very rich at the expense of most people. Free trade is to the benefit of the majority. Admittedly, fair trade is also needed.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14771
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:53 pm

Lance

the point being made was that Botswana is an example of Free Trade. So far, all they offer the world is Diamonds. So, you and I agree: that is not free trade.

How long do you think we will share the same side?

As I'm banned from the Climate Discussion............we never had a fuller discussion on the idea of "oversizing" the solar plant and storing the excess of power as Hydrogen and by happy coincidence taking advantage of the oil infrastructure that is readily adaptive to a Hydrogen Economy. I hear this opportunity rarely touched on. Seems like a natural to me........one that Botswana could benefit from.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has No Life
Posts: 11638
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:03 pm

Bobbo

There is an easy, though expensive, way of making solar energy practical. Simply hook the world together as a distribution network. There are deserts baking in sunshine, ideal for generating solar power, in the southern USA, and in South America, as well as the Sahara, Namib desert, Kalahari, Gobi desert, and Australia. The potential for 24 hour a day generation of electicity in vast amounts. All that is needed is the cables to distribute the power. Technically possible, but probably impossible due to idiot politics.

However, there are other ways of making electricity which are fully practical. The world need never run out of power as long as those in power can think rationally.

Hell, we are in trouble !

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4273
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: The Baby-eating Bishop

Re: Trump's Tariffs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:15 pm

If diamonds were freely traded, they would cost less than cultured pearls.