Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

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Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Phoenix76 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:07 am

Perhaps the heading of this post is a little extreme, but this story clearly shows that the tomb of JC that resides in a shrine within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem could not be the tomb of JC.

The tomb that, according to legend, held the body of Jesus Christ dates back almost 1,700 years, scientific tests show.

"Tests using a technique called optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) of mortar from the limestone bed revealed when the quartz within the masonry was last exposed to light. The results showed that the bed was constructed around A.D. 345, during or shortly after the reign of Constantine the Great. The test results were released today (Nov. 28) by the National Geographic Society."

The above test refers to the testing of a bed of limestone within the coffin. So the coffin was made more than 300 years after the alleged death of JC. Interestingly, that coincides with the time when parts of the bible were written. But the 345 years certainly matches up with Constantine the Great, and his Mother, Helena, discovering the tomb in 327.

Worth a read for those interested in the subject. Just another nail in the coffin of religion, especially christianity. (Pun absolutely intended).

https://www.livescience.com/61043-tomb- ... 0171128-ls

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Aztexan » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:31 am

Optically stimulated luminescence schmoptically stimulated luminescence
So you're saying the signature of baby Jesus on the US Constitution was forged?
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:04 am

Phoenix76 wrote:The tomb that, according to legend, held the body of Jesus Christ dates back almost 1,700 years, scientific tests show.
Which seems about right. Helena, Constantine the Great's mother made up most of the artefacts when she went to Jerusalem, including the "spear of destiny" and "true cross". She dies in 330AD. She is the patron saint of new discoveries.
Helena.jpg
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by ElectricMonk » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:31 am

In his book "Foucault’s Pendulum", Umberto Eco has two of his characters ruminate about Jesus being fictional:

“Now that you mention it, let’s see. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are a bunch of practical jokers who meet somewhere and decide to have a contest. They invent a character, agree on a few basic facts, and then each one’s free to take it and run with it. At the end, they’ll see who’s done the best job.
The four stories are picked up by some friends who act as critics: Matthew is fairly realistic, but insists on that Messiah business too much; Mark isn’t bad, just a little sloppy; Luke is elegant, no denying that; and John takes the philosophy a little too far. Actually, though, the books have an appeal, they circulate, and when the four realize what’s happening, it’s too late. Paul has already met Jesus on the road to Damascus, Pliny begins his investigation ordered by the worried emperor, and a legion of apocryphal writers pretends also to know plenty…Toi, apo-cryphe lecteur, mon semblable, mon frere. It all goes to Peter’s head; he takes himself seriously. John threatens to tell the truth, Peter and Paul have him chained up on the island of Patmos. Soon the poor man is seeing things: Help, there are locusts all over my bed, make those trumpets stop, where’s all this blood coming from? The others say he’s drunk, or maybe it’s arteriosclerosis…Who knows, maybe it really happened that way.”
“It did happen that way. You should read some Feuerbach, instead of those junk books of yours.”


And in "Baudolino" we learn that it is not authenticity which makes a Relic real, but the belief in its authenticity - hence there is no problem with making fake relics if they help people believe.

Man, I love Eco's books.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Poodle » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:The tomb that, according to legend, held the body of Jesus Christ dates back almost 1,700 years, scientific tests show.
Which seems about right. Helena, Constantine the Great's mother made up most of the artefacts when she went to Jerusalem, including the "spear of destiny" and "true cross". She dies in 330AD. She is the patron saint of new discoveries.Helena.jpg

She could hardly have missed it. If you gathered together all the pieces of the True Cross which were claimed in English monasteries alone, the thing would have been between 300 and 400 feet high.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:04 am

"“Now that you mention it, let’s see. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are a bunch of practical jokers ............." //// Which later gave us Scientology and then Trump.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Phoenix76 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:05 am

Hey Bobbo, you're sharp. Right on the mark. Trump? Well I don't know your politics like you do. But accept your prognosis.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:42 am

Thanks P.....I was really going to the mechanism of "movements truly believed" starting out as jokes by the founders. No one, including Trump, thought his joke/move to enhance his name was going to win. But he did, and now we have true believers.

I've never read it regarding Scientology.....but as Bill Maher says: "I just know that its true......"
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by placid » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:37 pm

Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ.



Then we must debunk the name of every one that ever lived.

So who is actually living?

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:13 pm

placid wrote:Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ.



Then we must debunk the name of every one that ever lived.

So who is actually living?

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Mon May 14, 2018 1:55 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Perhaps the heading of this post is a little extreme, but this story clearly shows that the tomb of JC that resides in a shrine within the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem could not be the tomb of JC.
There are a couple of other arguments about why it couldn't be his tomb Phoenix:

1. The tomb's location was supposed to be within city walls, which conflicts with Jewish tomb traditions of burying the dead OUTSIDE of city walls.

2. There were no records of Christian veneration of JC's tomb and no record of Christian outrage when the Temple of Venus was built on top of it.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 14, 2018 4:14 pm

I make a distinction between the Myth of Jesus and the Tomb of Jesus. but, neither one exists..... so what's the point?
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Mon May 14, 2018 9:38 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I make a distinction between the Myth of Jesus and the Tomb of Jesus. but, neither one exists..... so what's the point?
I think the point is how Christians desperately need their Jesus to be at least thought of as an historical person. They also are known to venerate shrines. A historical person that important would have his place of burial firmly planted in the memories of the witnesses who saw all of the shenanigans and all of the people who were told about them. Yet there are at least 6 different tombs of Jesus where they venerate him. Including one in Japan.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 14, 2018 9:45 pm

And the Great Ark could be rebuilt from the pieces of "True Cross" on sale outside Lourdes and other shrines.

Bottom line, they're idiots.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue May 15, 2018 4:45 am

Something I have said before.

2,000 years ago, there was no such name as "Jesus ".
There was an Aramaic name "Yeshua ". If the character known as Jesus actually existed, as part of that culture, and as a son of Joseph, his Aramaic name would be Yeshua Ben Yosef.

As the account goes, the language of the intelligentsia of the time was Greek, and Yeshua was not a Greek name. So in the Greek texts, his name was written as Iesos. 'I' was pronounced like a Y. Then when the Greek texts was translated into English, it became Jesus. But at the time, the name Jesus did not even exist. Incidentally, the correct name 'Yeshua ' translates into English as Joshua. Which means the supposed messiah was actually good old Josh.

So if the translators could not even get the name of their most important character right, how many other mistakes did they make ?

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue May 15, 2018 4:48 am

Until someone can show me Jesus's long-form birth certificate, I have to assume he was born in Kenya.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Tue May 15, 2018 5:00 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And the Great Ark could be rebuilt from the pieces of "True Cross" on sale outside Lourdes and other shrines.

Bottom line, they're idiots.
My wife and I got to see something similar to Lourdes a couple of years ago when we visited Spain and Portugal. Part of the bus tour was a couple of hours at Fatima. It's a Catholic shrine where the Virgin Mary apparently "appeared" to 3 children. It was a packed house everywhere we looked including a K Mart-like Christian souvenir shop. Christians were getting ripped off in their thousands with everything from holy water to candles to 6 foot angels. We were told to watch out for pious Christians who crawled to the front of the church on their knees, some would be bleeding. One enterprising chap was renting out knee pads!

Now if there was really a verified tomb of Jesus, that would be the dominant shrine IMO. But I suppose that 6 made up shrines about a made up person makes a lot of people happy and keeps the indoctrination Kool-Aid flowing.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 15, 2018 9:44 am

SEG wrote: Yet there are at least 6 different tombs of Jesus where they venerate him. Including one in Japan.
Tell me you mean a shrine to Jesus and not the supposed burial site of jesus? Two different things.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Tue May 15, 2018 1:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
SEG wrote: Yet there are at least 6 different tombs of Jesus where they venerate him. Including one in Japan.
Tell me you mean a shrine to Jesus and not the supposed burial site of jesus? Two different things.
No, I meant tombs of Jesus. I looks like there are only 5 according to Wiki, but as they said, according to;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus
"The tomb of Jesus refers to any place where it is believed that Jesus was temporarily entombed for the three days before he was raised from the dead."

Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:

Jerusalem
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem.
The Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Others
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem.
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Jammu and Kashmir, India
Kirisuto no haka in Shingō, Japan
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 15, 2018 1:33 pm

thank you.......well, what else can you expect from any religion?? I think the key is "where it is believed...." I'd like to know who/how many believe such a silly thing......or have the spaceships already picked them up?
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Lausten » Tue May 15, 2018 5:54 pm

Back in the day, I saw someone with an "Archaeological" Bible. Curious, I flipped through it, lots of footnotes about various locations, some of them were accurate I'm sure. Knowing that it was Constantine's mother in law that went to Jerusalem looking for artifacts, and knowing she a completely amateur job of it, I looked at the end of one of the gospels. Sure enough, it spoke of her as if she was the inventor of archaeology.

Worse, PBS trots out their Jesus documentaries every year around Easter, and no matter how liberal they are, there's always one who makes some ridiculous claim. Last one I saw I had a guy mention some piece of the cross that is the "best piece of evidence" for Jesus. It's a piece of wood with Greek letters on it that has been shown to be a fraud more than once.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Aztexan » Tue May 15, 2018 7:24 pm

I have noodles in my pantry, which is the best piece of evidence that proves the existence of the FSM. I don't know how they got there or who put them there but they're there so...
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Wed May 16, 2018 1:01 pm

Aztexan wrote:I have noodles in my pantry, which is the best piece of evidence that proves the existence of the FSM. I don't know how they got there or who put them there but they're there so...
Hey, I'm a Pasta of the FSM! Maybe it was Immaculate Spagettion?
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Wed May 16, 2018 1:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:thank you.......well, what else can you expect from any religion?? I think the key is "where it is believed...." I'd like to know who/how many believe such a silly thing......or have the spaceships already picked them up?
Did you know that there are UFO cults today? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism

When you consider that the miracles of Christianity are against the laws of nature and part of what the Raëlian cosmologists believe is that the observable universe has no creator and is infinite in time and finite in size and surrounded by infinite space, - that makes it more credible!
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Wed May 16, 2018 2:08 pm

Lausten wrote:Back in the day, I saw someone with an "Archaeological" Bible. Curious, I flipped through it, lots of footnotes about various locations, some of them were accurate I'm sure. Knowing that it was Constantine's mother in law that went to Jerusalem looking for artifacts, and knowing she a completely amateur job of it, I looked at the end of one of the gospels. Sure enough, it spoke of her as if she was the inventor of archaeology.
It was his mother actually, Saint Helena.

Everywhere she went looking for signs of Jeebus, she amazingly found what she was looking for. How lucky eh? In Nazareth she found an old well. The locals told her that this was the very well that Joseph and Mary drew water from in their loving dwelling. Today it is known as Mary's well just below the Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation in modern-day Nazareth.
Worse, PBS trots out their Jesus documentaries every year around Easter, and no matter how liberal they are, there's always one who makes some ridiculous claim. Last one I saw I had a guy mention some piece of the cross that is the "best piece of evidence" for Jesus. It's a piece of wood with Greek letters on it that has been shown to be a fraud more than once.
How gullible can you get? I know a solicitor that was gushing on how she got to visit the very house that Jesus was born in Nazareth.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Gord » Wed May 16, 2018 5:08 pm

SEG wrote:Everywhere she went looking for signs of Jeebus, she amazingly found what she was looking for. How lucky eh? In Nazareth she found an old well. The locals told her that this was the very well that Joseph and Mary drew water from in their loving dwelling. Today it is known as Mary's well just below the Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation in modern-day Nazareth.
If she'd gone looking in San Francisco, she'd have found Jesus' Golden Gate Bridge.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Wed May 16, 2018 9:01 pm

Gord wrote:
SEG wrote:Everywhere she went looking for signs of Jeebus, she amazingly found what she was looking for. How lucky eh? In Nazareth she found an old well. The locals told her that this was the very well that Joseph and Mary drew water from in their loving dwelling. Today it is known as Mary's well just below the Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation in modern-day Nazareth.
If she'd gone looking in San Francisco, she'd have found Jesus' Golden Gate Bridge.
Yes, she was a lucky old thing. Have you read any of Rene Salm`s books, Gord?
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Gord » Thu May 17, 2018 1:42 am

No, but I've read Bart Ehrman. He disagrees with Rene Salm's claim that Nazareth didn't exist at the "time ofJeebus:

https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Thu May 17, 2018 8:30 am

Gord wrote:No, but I've read Bart Ehrman. He disagrees with Rene Salm's claim that Nazareth didn't exist at the "time ofJeebus:

https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
Bart is a brilliant scholar Gord, but I think that he missed the mark in disagreeing with Salm's claims that there is no viable evidence of Nazareth existing as a city or a town at the supposed time of JC. This is one of the first things he brought up when he had that dismal debate with Robert Price in October 2016. I reckon he tried to dismiss Salm's claim ASAP as it has a lot of good arguments.

I have enjoyed reading Ehrman's books in the past, but his "Did Jesus Exist" book was just terrible.

If you haven't seen it, this is a pretty good summary of what Salm brought to the table. He is not a nut job and doesn't make considered opinions on his own merits, he quotes experts in the field. As far as I know, his books haven't been thoroughly debunked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7PlmAfjDiY
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by TJrandom » Thu May 17, 2018 8:46 am

SEG wrote:... Yet there are at least 6 different tombs of Jesus where they venerate him. Including one in Japan.
First I had heard of this... a good read if anyone is interested.... It sounds to me like an attempt to foster tourism.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Thu May 17, 2018 10:04 am

TJrandom wrote:
SEG wrote:... Yet there are at least 6 different tombs of Jesus where they venerate him. Including one in Japan.
First I had heard of this... a good read if anyone is interested.... It sounds to me like an attempt to foster tourism.
Yes, probably, amongst other reasons. According to Wiki, this is what is written on his tomb:
The English text on the sign explaining the legend of the Tomb of Christ reads:

When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he came to Japan and pursued knowledge of divinity for 12 years. He went back to Judea at age 33 and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri casually took Christ's place and ended his life on the cross.

Christ, who escaped the crucifixion, went through the ups and downs of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106.

On this holy ground, there is dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri.

The above description was given in a testament by Jesus Christ.
It gets weirder than that though. A mormon friend of mine believes that Jesus was Quetzalcoatl (a feathered flying reptile god) that breathes fire and flew over to South America. Can't argue with that.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Gord » Thu May 17, 2018 10:27 pm

SEG wrote:
Gord wrote:No, but I've read Bart Ehrman. He disagrees with Rene Salm's claim that Nazareth didn't exist at the "time ofJeebus:

https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
https://ehrmanblog.org/rene-salm-at-the ... r-members/
Bart is a brilliant scholar Gord, but I think that he missed the mark in disagreeing with Salm's claims that there is no viable evidence of Nazareth existing as a city or a town at the supposed time of JC. This is one of the first things he brought up when he had that dismal debate with Robert Price in October 2016. I reckon he tried to dismiss Salm's claim ASAP as it has a lot of good arguments.
Nooooo, it seems people are quick to dismiss him because he has a lot of BAD arguments. His ideas are contrary to the evidence.
If you haven't seen it, this is a pretty good summary of what Salm brought to the table. He is not a nut job and doesn't make considered opinions on his own merits, he quotes experts in the field. As far as I know, his books haven't been thoroughly debunked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7PlmAfjDiY
I've "seen" that video, but I haven't watched it. It's over an hour long.

If you're anything like me, you probably get excited by an idea and latch onto it before finding out the real criticisms against it. It's hard not to cling to the things we want to believe in. But be careful! Sometimes we get drawn in by an Acharya S. or a Richard Carrier or a Rene Salm, and find ourselves trying to support the wrong side.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Fri May 18, 2018 12:35 am

Gord wrote:Nooooo, it seems people are quick to dismiss him because he has a lot of BAD arguments. His ideas are contrary to the evidence.
Let's cut to the chase - where is the verifiable evidence of a town existing at the time of Jesus? There is none. This probably deserves another thread, as I am pretty sure you haven't seen some convincing arguments against it existing.
If you haven't seen it, this is a pretty good summary of what Salm brought to the table. He is not a nut job and doesn't make considered opinions on his own merits, he quotes experts in the field. As far as I know, his books haven't been thoroughly debunked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7PlmAfjDiY
I've "seen" that video, but I haven't watched it. It's over an hour long.
Try converting it to MP3 and listen to it on a memory stick in your car. I use this converter: http://convert2mp3.net/en/
If you're anything like me, you probably get excited by an idea and latch onto it before finding out the real criticisms against it. It's hard not to cling to the things we want to believe in. But be careful! Sometimes we get drawn in by an Acharya S. or a Richard Carrier or a Rene Salm, and find ourselves trying to support the wrong side.
I appreciate your good advice mate. Yes it's easy to get caught up in something that is not true. Like religion for example :) I am probably also like you in that I like to research anything that I'm not that sure of. That's why I read both Bart Ehrman's book, "Did Jesus Exist?" and its thorough rebuttal,

Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth
by Richard Carrier Ph.D. (Author),‎ D.M. Murdock (Author),‎ René Salm (Author),‎ Earl Doherty (Author),‎ David Fitzgerald (Author),‎ Robert M. Price Ph.D. (Editor)

I like the way you didn't go for my throat on this, and offered me well-meaning advice. Let's both keep it civil and enjoy the discussion, mate!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 18, 2018 12:54 am

I didn't read anything to determine Jesus wasn't not the son of God.

I am still precocious that way.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Gord » Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 am

SEG wrote:
Gord wrote:Nooooo, it seems people are quick to dismiss him because he has a lot of BAD arguments. His ideas are contrary to the evidence.
Let's cut to the chase - where is the verifiable evidence of a town existing at the time of Jesus? There is none. This probably deserves another thread, as I am pretty sure you haven't seen some convincing arguments against it existing.
As far as I know, there's evidence of a town that's called Nazareth (I don't know if it was "the" Nazareth or not) , including the remains of a house, pottery sherds, coins, and farm terraces from roughly the proper time period, between the first century BC and the first century AD. The evidence doesn't seem to be disputed amongst archaeologists, but is denied by Salm and Carrier (for instance) who aren't archaeologists.

I've got another link to Ehrman, for what it's worth: https://ehrmanblog.org/did-nazareth-exist/

Also, I have no horse in this race. Whether or not Nazareth existed as a settlement at the "right time" doesn't matter to me. I don't know whether Jeebus was a "real boy" or just a made-up figure of pure myth, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was a little from column A and a little from column B. But the existence of Nazareth doesn't affect my opinion (well, more of a guess) on that one way or the other.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Fri May 18, 2018 4:38 am

SEG wrote:Let's cut to the chase - where is the verifiable evidence of a town existing at the time of Jesus? There is none. This probably deserves another thread, as I am pretty sure you haven't seen some convincing arguments against it existing.
SEG wrote:As far as I know, there's evidence of a town that's called Nazareth (I don't know if it was "the" Nazareth or not) , including the remains of a house, pottery sherds, coins, and farm terraces from roughly the proper time period, between the first century BC and the first century AD. The evidence doesn't seem to be disputed amongst archaeologists, but is denied by Salm and Carrier (for instance) who aren't archaeologists.
Let's not forget that Bart Erhman is not an archaeologist either. The annoying thing about Bart is that he constantly begs the question. He HAS got a horse in the race. He says in his book frequently that Jesus did exist, and at the end of that article he re-enforces it with "Jesus really came from there, as attested in multiple sources."

There is only one source, the bible.
I've got another link to Ehrman, for what it's worth: https://ehrmanblog.org/did-nazareth-exist/
Thanks I have seen this. The archaeology has been performed in that area for over a hundred years, mainly by religious types with one hand on the shovel and the other on a bible.
Also, I have no horse in this race. Whether or not Nazareth existed as a settlement at the "right time" doesn't matter to me. I don't know whether Jeebus was a "real boy" or just a made-up figure of pure myth, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was a little from column A and a little from column B.
Yes, me too. If it could ever be proven 100% Nazareth didn't exist (I don't think it can btw), it would become a major lie for the Christians to wonder about. If JESUS was proven not to exist (this is not very probable either) it would be a turning point for a load of Christians who would leave their faith in droves. Some would stay and believe in a celestial Jesus anyway.
Last edited by SEG on Fri May 18, 2018 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri May 18, 2018 5:19 am

Well, Nazareth certainly exists. If the original can't be found, it's the devil's doing. :-P
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Fri May 18, 2018 7:33 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Well, Nazareth certainly exists. If the original can't be found, it's the devil's doing. :-P
PMSL! Go the big hair and tight jeans!
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by Lausten » Wed May 23, 2018 2:49 pm

I don't like hearing Archarya and Carrier mentioned in the same breath. Carrier has made it a point to take apart most of the Archarya's arguments and state that people should stop using them if they want to remain credible. To see the state of the "consensus", click here https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/1794#22 and search for Avalos. You'll find the scholars who are seriously looking at Carrier's work. Which FYI, is not his work alone, he acknowledges the sources that led to his thesis.

The other thing to keep in mind is the current consensus is held up mostly by people who are paid to hold a certain faith. That is, if they question the consensus, they could lose their job. This is no way to form a consensus. It's the opposite of the scientific method.
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Re: Debunking the Myth of Jesus Christ

Post by SEG » Thu May 24, 2018 11:27 am

Lausten wrote:I don't like hearing Archarya and Carrier mentioned in the same breath. Carrier has made it a point to take apart most of the Archarya's arguments and state that people should stop using them if they want to remain credible.
I don't know about him taking apart MOST of her arguments, she had quite a few good ones as well as the terrible ones. Did you hear about the Penis Nose Controversy? This is where Ehrman mocked and defamed her and ended up getting some stick. He laughed at her in public and wrote this gem:

“Peter’ is not only ‘the rock’ but also ‘the cock’ or penis, as the word is used as slang to this day.” Here Acharya shows (her own?) hand drawing of a man with a rooster head but with a large erect penis instead of a nose, with this description: “Bronze sculpture hidden in the Vatican treasure [sic] of the Cock, symbol of St. Peter” (295). There is no penis-nosed statue of Peter the cock in the Vatican or anywhere else except in books like this, which love to make things up."
Here is a drawing of the cock statue that really WAS hidden in the Vatican museum (not "treasure");

Image
Raphael Lataster - the guy with a Ph.D. in religious studies from the University of Sydney has some very good arguments on the subject.
The other thing to keep in mind is the current consensus is held up mostly by people who are paid to hold a certain faith. That is, if they question the consensus, they could lose their job. This is no way to form a consensus. It's the opposite of the scientific method.
Correct. This reeks of Authority Bias and Appeal to authority. In a lot of the cases, it's not only a fear of losing their job or career path, it extends to losing their very Salvation. Or at least that is what they think that they are risking.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.