The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:08 pm

I thought we were talking about the invasion of bunny rabbits in Stat Mech’s yard.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:19 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:Tomorrow it's supposed to rain here. Bit worried the plants aren't getting enough water.Veggies seem okay. Anyway, the subject of classical music came up recently. I'm rather partial to the Boston Symphony Orchestra's recordings from the '80's.


This is even a more complex issue, and i think it will take at least 4 chapters to get through all of it!

Tomorrow it's supposed to rain here.....//////////// So you start by raising the issue of climate change which will be covered by chapter 1
"Bit worried the plants aren't getting enough water"......//////// the thematic of "drought" is some part of the world follows logically chapter 1 and will be covered by chapter 2
"Veggies seem okay.....//////////////////// I identify this as Monsanto's new slogan. Monsanto has been bought by the former Nazi firm Bayer...so it could take more than 1 chapter to get through it all...but i will try to make short.

Once it is done, we'll address the Nazi influence on the Boston Symphony Orchestra through its recording of Wagner's classic in the 80's.
Or maybe you should open a new thread??????????? :mrgreen:

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:21 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I thought we were talking about the invasion of bunny rabbits in Stat Mech’s yard.

Not an invasion, more a friendly visit: they sit amidst the ivy, look terribly nervous, munch on some plants. The rabbits are always welcome. The coyotes in the neighborhood are a different matter.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:42 pm

We get rabbits in our front yard and my kids think they are so cool.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Pros and cons to all we do, Jeffk. Pros and cons . . . :)
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I thought we were talking about the invasion of bunny rabbits in Stat Mech’s yard.

Not an invasion, more a friendly visit: they sit amidst the ivy, look terribly nervous, munch on some plants. The rabbits are always welcome. The coyotes in the neighborhood are a different matter.


Yes but the coyotes keep the rat population in check, so:

Pros and cons :roll:

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:09 pm

ROFL
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:53 pm

Chapter Four
Balsamo wrote: My personal remedy is to show the strength of a "democratic society" by showing tolerance until a certain point.
I can only give an example: in the mid 50's or 60's, there is a interview available on youtube (sound only) of a famous Jewish French journalist - Jacques Chancel - interviewing and debating with one of the most despicable French collaborator called Rebatet who was sentenced to life in prison but graced. The politeness of the interview was the most astonishing exhibition of strength of the present against (the French 5th Republic) against the past (the Vichy Regime, and worst in this case as Rebatet was an unrepentant Nazi). In International affairs, we call such power the "smart power", which is the one that fits with the ideals we are supposed to fight for).
But as i said, that is another debate, and took many occasion to express it on this forum in the past.

All sounds right. The issue is where that certain point is.

Balsamo wrote: Bobo:
No. Freedom is the freedom to do..... NOT to be free from the consequences of such decisions.


So you see your problem? you agree twice and then contradict yourself with such silly statement...
To make it clear, legal or political freedoms should not come with bad consequences. There is no freedom, even in principle, if you lose your job exercising your freedom...then it is not a freedom.
It is like saying to a slave "Ok you do not want to be slave, then go, but if we catch you we will kill you"...this kind of maxim should not be confused with freedom principles.
On a more personal mode, that was what my mother used to say when she did not agree with my choice: It always started with "You do what you want, BUT...." As far as freedom is concerned they should never be any "BUT".
On the other hand, to chose to become a "murderer" should not be the result of the exercise of any "right" even less inspired by "human rights".
Ha, ha........you are so DEMONSTRABLY WRONG..... its downright amusing: a definitional error so often made and pointed out that anyone with experience in the issue would not make. Might make it as a sloppy too quick post....but not as here after consderation. Lets add to everyones analytical armamentarium shall we? After "Pros and Cons to all we do." we can add: "The Sin of Conflation." FREEEEEEEEEDOM (Gee thats a third, but no time....touched on already, but save it for later) ......without consequences.....is a limitation on the gubment......not a general characteristic. I have the FREEEEEEEEEDOM to say I support changing the Constitution of the USA and clearly banning guns. I can say that FREEEEEEEEEELY and the gubment cannot punish me. but there are morons all over the place who will obstracize me for having such an opinion. Make fun of me, disagree. Call it Hate Speech. Put me on Ignore and tell everyone else to do it too. Then crow to all and sundry that that is what they have done, as a badge of honor. aka: NO freedom without consequences. Now....what was your closer example?===>"There is no freedom, even in principle, if you lose your job exercising your freedom...then it is not a freedom." and of course you are DEFINITIONALLY WRONG as freedom is understood in context of this discussion. There is NO Freedom to keep your job....absent a contract, union or otherwise...that would prohibit such action. There is freedom of speech: the GUBMENT can not stop you from speaking and advocating and associating with like minds. But free individuals, like most employers, can react to you as they wish absent breaking the law.

Balsamo wrote:And yes, we are in such a silly situation that today, at least in Europe, it is the Far rights or the Far left which have invested themselves in the defense of the "freedom of speech"...which is clearly insane...but this paradox is the result of the wrong choices that have been made for the last 18 years or so.
All this in a purely European perspective.
/// I don't know what you mean. Everyone should be invested in freedom of speech, so no paradox. You might be CONFLATING the issue of regulating hate speech? I just don't follow it.

Balsamo wrote:Bobo: Ahhhhhh.....you are conflating hate speech (the issue I advocate for a heavy bias in favor of FREE SPEECH) with hate incitement which IS AGAINST THE LAW in many jurisdictions. I support anti Hate Incitement laws.///////////////Hmmmmmm.......I may have that wrong by way of definition? Incitement is so close to a call for action.....which should be illegal, but you probably mean "the ideas" as inciting hatred? You know: as most religions do themselves?????? Yes, those are harder cases.

Absolutly not...This is why i made above the distinction between " I hate Jews" (hate speech) and "they should all be killed" (Hate incitment)...In Europe, and in the Western world, to take a contemporary example, it is why we make a distinction between "Muslims" and "Islamist", the first requesting their rights to follow their personal belief, the others calling for the annihilation of the infidels... (that is our western definition anyway)
Well put it that way: Unfortunately, i know someone who lost a close relative in the "attacks in Brussels" not so long ago...I would no even try to convince him that all Muslims are not guilty. In his personal awful perspective, they all are...I respect that somehow, and i won't judge him...I don't agree but i would never feel the right to judge him...But if had the next step for him been to publish call for punishing Muslims at every occasion...then i would lose all my initial compassion.
/// Not to quibble but you have correctly judged him. Its confronting him you don't want to do. You know the drill: Pros and Cons to all we do....... and don't do. The latter phrase added for emphasis from time to time.

Balsamo wrote:This is the best example of the difference between "freedom of opinion and belief" which is a right and "Hate incitement" which should never be considered as one.
[/quote] I don't know which of the several examples you are referring to, but I agree on the distinction with the open question still of where the point is....where speech crosses over to incitement.

We're done? ............... No epilogue.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:25 am

Frankly there are pros and cons of discussing both rabbits and coyotes.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:45 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Frankly there are pros and cons of discussing both rabbits and coyotes.


Nay even discussing the pros and cons of pros and cons.... :lol:

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:11 am

LOL
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:10 am

Yeah, pros and cons to everything we do, Stormy Daniels is performing, with a Trump impersonator, about 10-15 minutes from my house. But all 4 shows are sold out. Not that we would have gone. But we are all about FREEDOM, the FREEDOM to go if we wanted to. Without being ostracized. Or peed upon. Pros/cons.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:30 am

>"Not that we would have gone."

Not even to see her utter free speech (though not to see her exercise her rights under the "synonomous" First Amendment)."

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:27 am

".....♫..and a one, and a two...♫..."
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:36 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Chapter Four

We're done? ............... No epilogue.

Actually.....I've thought of a worthwhile epilogue. I know..............

"with the open question still of where the point is....where speech crosses over to incitement." I think we do all agree speech should be as free as possible. Its a hallmark of many democracies to various degrees and missing in all tyranical/strong man societies....to various degrees.

From this discussion: it appears to me there is a European Model and the American Model to choose from which shows an option for when Free Speech should be limited as when in European Model: when speech "crosses over to incitement", or the American model: when the speech calls for "“imminent lawless action.”

Now, emotions aside, I don't really care which model is adopted or thought best. I ONLY POINT OUT THE DIFFERENCE. The American Model is more protective of speech.....and its only arguable whether or not that makes society more or less protected as a result.....It all depends on what happens next, and no one can predict history.

In my understanding, the European Model finds certain speech illegal when it is utterly vile and incites hatred against some group? I think the American Model takes the exact same standard but adds an additional test: is the speech likely to result in harm to said groups "in the immediate foreseeable future"...ie, not potentially at some vague time in the future.

The racoons and skunks around here don't associate with each other or the cats. Whole lot of discrimination going on here in the natural world. Ruins my carrot lawn edging too...........Carry On.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:39 am

OK, bobbo is done here. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:44 am

Given I only respond to what I find interesting or challenging or new...........you are right.

................course,

........................................ I've already lowered my standards quite a bit.............
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:46 pm

Humid here today, but not too hot. Showers were predicted but they passed to the north and south. I'm taking a walk now, to a Scandinavian bakery that just opened in the neighborhood. Later this afternoon I think I'll head into downtown Chicago.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:03 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Humid here today, but not too hot. Showers were predicted but they passed to the north and south. I'm taking a walk now, to a Scandinavian bakery that just opened in the neighborhood. Later this afternoon I think I'll head into downtown Chicago.


So is it partly sunny... or partly cloudy.... or are those designations two ways of saying the same thing? Words are important.... sometimes they say more about you than anything else.... Partly sunny would seem to be a "pro" whilst "partly cloudy" would seem to be a "con", but that could say more about you depending which one you use... Pros and cons to everything!

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Humid here today, but not too hot. Showers were predicted but they passed to the north and south. I'm taking a walk now, to a Scandinavian bakery that just opened in the neighborhood. Later this afternoon I think I'll head into downtown Chicago.


It’s June in Oklahoma so it’s already hotter than hell out. Of course it’s nothing compared to what July and August will bring.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:23 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Humid here today, but not too hot. Showers were predicted but they passed to the north and south. I'm taking a walk now, to a Scandinavian bakery that just opened in the neighborhood. Later this afternoon I think I'll head into downtown Chicago.


So is it partly sunny... or partly cloudy.... or are those designations two ways of saying the same thing? Words are important.... sometimes they say more about you than anything else.... Partly sunny would seem to be a "pro" whilst "partly cloudy" would seem to be a "con", but that could say more about you depending which one you use... Pros and cons to everything!


Well, that all depends on whether or not philosophically you are a “partly cloudy” or “partly sunny” type of person. This is similar to the “glass half empty” or “glass half full” type of person. However, there are pros and cons in making that comparison.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:23 pm

Stormy Daniels abruptly left the club where she was performing last night, stiffing - so to speak - 75 "guests" who'd paid 20 bucks each for a photo and autograph.

Daniels and club management had been unable to resolve a conflict over Daniels' fees. Also, it was announced that Daniels' remaining 3 performances at the club were canceled.

A few hours after this sad announcement, however, club management said that Daniels would in fact appear at the club for the 3 performances scheduled this weekend and that the club "loves Stormy Daniels and her team and welcomes them as family back to the club."
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:49 pm

Balmoral95 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Humid here today, but not too hot. Showers were predicted but they passed to the north and south. I'm taking a walk now, to a Scandinavian bakery that just opened in the neighborhood. Later this afternoon I think I'll head into downtown Chicago.


So is it partly sunny... or partly cloudy.... or are those designations two ways of saying the same thing? Words are important.... sometimes they say more about you than anything else.... Partly sunny would seem to be a "pro" whilst "partly cloudy" would seem to be a "con", but that could say more about you depending which one you use... Pros and cons to everything!

http://wiki.wunderground.com/index.php/ ... tly_cloudy :mrgreen:
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:50 am

I've always thought the glass half full or half empty was useful for demonstrating another analytical tool: CONTEXT.

If you just come across the glass at 50% you can call it just that or half full/empty as you choose. All three say the same thing as we commonly use the terms. BUT, making language more precise we could ask "How did the glass come to be that way?" And I would vote for if the glass was being filled and then stopped, it would be half full. If the glass was being emptied, then it would be half empty. If those definitions were adopted then more information would be communicated when using those terms.

We think with words. Improve the words, and we improve our thinking.

................and, as always: I won't get upset if anyone disagrees with me or has a different idea. Humidity does that to me.....and its always humid unless we define the context.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:55 am

If I drink half a glass of water then it means it’s half full. If I finish it I’ll need to pee.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:47 am

Context: Some twot invades a forum like a rapidly aggressive annoying herpetic virus with repeated and meaningless musings about CONTEXT instead of going back to the forums wherein his musings are appreciated (as onerous a task as that may be).

Context: He stands on the precipice of making Gerdes really sound interesting for the first time in his life.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:20 am

So flexible and loving..........curious about different points of view........ open to the variety of ideas...... always willing to discuss.......

Recognize anyone?
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:35 am

Oooooh! Darn.....I missed a better shot.

Do you all know there are pros and cons to every idea? Experiencing something you don't like? Look for the Pros and cons. Try to make your life happier by ignoring the cons as much as possible, and enjoy the pros as much as possible. This evolves quite easily if you have any skill at all in compartmentalizing your ideas/emotions/life experiences/memories/imagination and so forth.

Its always better to try and manage yourself rather than anything/one else. Try it...........it could make your life better, and isn't that what life is all about????

THAT............plus don't be a constant douchebag.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:59 pm

Context: I was at a neighborhood gathering late yesterday, after people had gotten home from work. One man, who was convinced that he is a deep, critical thinker, droned on, repeating trite, tedious commonplaces. He wound up left to himself, convinced, I am sure, that those whom he bored had failed to understand, or were challenged by, his insights and profundity. He also had bad breath, which didn't help his case.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:14 pm

How about we make this a music thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5jtqCo43WM

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:34 pm

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:30 pm

“Today I saw one of those places, saw it in all of its horror, all its filth, all its death.”
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:03 am

We are all more the same than different.

I would rather talk substance than the puerile contest of name calling and swapping personal insults. But then...... would we have missed all the good tunes?

Choose who you are. Pros and Cons to all we do.
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:We are all more the same than different.

I would rather talk substance than the puerile contest of name calling and swapping personal insults. But then...... would we have missed all the good tunes?

Choose who you are. Pros and Cons to all we do.



The Oracle has spoken.

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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:20 am

Its also worth noting that in a thread that turned to free speech........I'm the only one posting that follows its precepts. All ideas open to discuss for their pros and cons.

You guys want to shut down, shun, and expel anyone who for whatever reason there is, for it has not been made clear, that you don't "like."

Oracle: An authoritative person who divines the future //// I don't devine the future: I do stress using words with their correct......... not near......meaning.

OTOH (see the analysis?): Oracle: A person considered to be a source of great authority //// I'm not a source of great authority. Knowing this...I welcomed the introduction of the UNDec of Human Rights.... read it...and posted about it.

We are blessed in finding an authority we can learn from...a function well performed by a group that doesn't turn elitist.

So.......who here have any good ideas what might resolve the I v P dispute? I say, non-Oraclely, non authoritatively that Israel continue what it is doing but openly admit to it and give PLO/HAMAS a time frame to react or: Israel will cointue to do what it is doing. I'd mention what that is....but will allow for individual prioritization.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Balsamo
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balsamo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:06 pm

Weather forcast for Israel for the next two weeks: Sunny with temperature between 18 and 33 celsius...
So whatever happens there between Israelis and Palestinians, it will be under a bright sunshiny day...

In an attempt to put this topic back on its tracks...step by step...


@Sergey: a good piece of music actually, thanks.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:04 am

Israel is mostly sunny most of the time.

http://www.travelmania.com/weather.asp

A loose thread from the discussion: the HD group has a deserved reputation throughout the Forum of having real expertise on that subject. I have noted and commented on that expertise. Its limitation: no oracle. Its fun to muse on what one actually does learn from History? History. so varied and open to interpretation it all too often appears to me to provide only the most common sensible notions or is only a source to pick and choose "facts" to support whatever position is desired. Kinda aggravating?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Balmoral95
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Re: The History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Postby Balmoral95 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:43 am

Back to music... :mrgreen:


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