It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:10 pm

Because rich guy prisons are so very expensive to run? But, who knows, with that increase of privatization... hey, if he has any money left (or if he keeps being supported by whomever seems to do so), he could buy himself something nice in jail. :-P



Odd that not even such a hardened criminal is as willing as a certain California senator to throw his wife/family under the bus...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:47 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:AFAIK, in 'Fear', Trump's former lawyer John Dowd told him that he would end up in a jumpsuit if he had an interview with Mueller. Supposedly he also told Trump that he had no attorney-client privilege with Ty Cobb when it comes to illegal stuff.
This sounds to me that Dowd believed that Trump was guilty as hell of some serious stuff, and that only the GOP Senators could safe him by burying the Mueller report and stop any attempt at impeachment.
You're right. He did say those things. That's not about collusion, though. It's about a coverup, where there is ample PUBLIC information that he tried to interfere with an investigation. That's where his real danger lies, not in whatever happened in 2016.

But it will get interesting. This is an EXPENSIVE lesson for Manafort. It's going to cost him $46,000,000 in fines, plus jail time. And it looks like he'll have to plead guilty to some crimes that are both state and federal. I wonder if the Fourth Amendment applies here, so the states can't try him if he pleads guilty and Trump pardons him. I would think it doesn't apply. Violation of a state law is legally a different thing from violation of a federal statute, so it wouldn't be the same crime, even though the overt act might be the same in both cases. Well, let law students argue about that. Get out the popcorn and watch the show.
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:49 pm

Gee Upton: what was being covered up?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:01 pm

I feel so sorry for him... his legal fees, his fines, and hopefully his time behind bars... (Reminder to self: Don`t be mean spirited. 8-) )

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:28 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote: I wonder if the Fourth Amendment applies here, so the states can't try him if he pleads guilty and Trump pardons him. I would think it doesn't apply. Violation of a state law is legally a different thing from violation of a federal statute, so it wouldn't be the same crime, even though the overt act might be the same in both cases. Well, let law students argue about that. Get out the popcorn and watch the show.
The Fourth applies but as you note, its two different laws. Its a gotcha that makes several movie plots hard to watch....on par with thinking you can be found not guilty of killing your missing spouse in a trial today, so next week you go out and kill them for real. Same charge, but the date of the supposed crime is different.

The Fed vs State Crime can be considered "unfair" in certain finely scripted scenarios...…….but then...….they're criminals, so who cares?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Manafort made a deal, admitting to Conspiracy with a foreign government and agreeing to extensive cooperation with Mueller.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/ ... eal-823882

Trump must be thrilled by the success of his DoJ.
Ya'll watched his lawyer repeatedly "washing his hands" while making the announcement (and speaking of the safety of Manafort's family)? What was that all about?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by ElectricMonk » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:36 am

I think Manafort, and possibly his lawyers, too, might have gotten death threats from henchmen of Russian Oligarchs Manafort and Trump helped move billions of assets into the US - all of which might get seized by the Treasury if Manafort sings. No wonder they are nervous.
I expect a lot of the Plea deal to involve physical protection.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:23 am

I think extra protection was being mentioned as being part of it on the news. Team Trump must also be not very happy with the apparent fact that Mueller now can get information about that special agreement/conract between their lawyers.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by TJrandom » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:45 am

If only the plea agreement required Manafort to reject any pardon...

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:15 am

TJrandom wrote:If only the plea agreement required Manafort to reject any pardon...
I don't think that could be legally effective. If so, it would be a limitation on the power/authority of the President. All a con can do is reject terms of pardon or parole if and when such things exist....ie they do for most paroles, but AFAIK none for a pardon.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:04 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote: I wonder if the Fourth Amendment applies here, so the states can't try him if he pleads guilty and Trump pardons him. I would think it doesn't apply. Violation of a state law is legally a different thing from violation of a federal statute, so it wouldn't be the same crime, even though the overt act might be the same in both cases. Well, let law students argue about that. Get out the popcorn and watch the show.
The Fourth applies but as you note, its two different laws. Its a gotcha that makes several movie plots hard to watch....on par with thinking you can be found not guilty of killing your missing spouse in a trial today, so next week you go out and kill them for real. Same charge, but the date of the supposed crime is different.

The Fed vs State Crime can be considered "unfair" in certain finely scripted scenarios...…….but then...….they're criminals, so who cares?
Thanks for the information. As to your previous question ("What did Trump cover up?"), I guess I'd have to ask Mueller. If there really wasn't anything to cover up, he could still be in trouble for "corrupt intent" in asking Comey to go easy on Flynn, in firing Comey to shut down the investigation (as he boasted to Putin), in composing a false press release about the Trump Tower meeting, etc. Even though none of the acts was illegal per se, they add up to an effort to obstruct justice.

But there's still, as far as I know, a law against accepting campaign donations from foreigners, and those donations can be "in kind," not necessarily cash. He's already admitted that any campaign likes to get dirt on the opposition, so he can't claim the dirt on Hillary was not a donation. All that needs to be shown is that he knew about the donation. The best evidence for that is his first use of the figure 30,000 emails, which came at exactly the time Veselnitskaya gave that number to the Trumpettes.
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:07 am

ElectricMonk wrote:I think Manafort, and possibly his lawyers, too, might have gotten death threats from henchmen of Russian Oligarchs Manafort and Trump helped move billions of assets into the US - all of which might get seized by the Treasury if Manafort sings. No wonder they are nervous.

I expect a lot of the Plea deal to involve physical protection.

:gp: :gp: :gp:
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:26 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:If only the plea agreement required Manafort to reject any pardon...
I don't think that could be legally effective. If so, it would be a limitation on the power/authority of the President. All a con can do is reject terms of pardon or parole if and when such things exist....ie they do for most paroles, but AFAIK none for a pardon.
Tha newz sed that the way is was done, it's (nearly?) pardon-proof, and that no matter what, team Mueller will have what they wanted.

Someone must be getting old. It's kinda surprising that a reportedly excellent former KGB would get himself into such a situation...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:21 pm

Now even Dershowitz folds and flips? :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:49 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:If only the plea agreement required Manafort to reject any pardon...
I don't think that could be legally effective. If so, it would be a limitation on the power/authority of the President. All a con can do is reject terms of pardon or parole if and when such things exist....ie they do for most paroles, but AFAIK none for a pardon.
Tha newz sed that the way is was done, it's (nearly?) pardon-proof, and that no matter what, team Mueller will have what they wanted.

Someone must be getting old. It's kinda surprising that a reportedly excellent former KGB would get himself into such a situation...
I assume by "pardon proof" what they mean is that if pardoned, there are State Charges that could not be touched. Not pardon proof at all....as pardons only go to Federal Charges.

As to Manafort....I've never heard he was former KGB==just working closely with them?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:54 pm

Manafort? Nooooo... not him. The guy they all worked for in the end. :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 pm

I thought that was the "correct" reference...but it wasn't set up that way.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:44 pm

It could be a little ambiguous - I guess it never occurred to me that one of the (currently) most famous KGBers involved in all this wouldn't come to mind immediately - and stay. Goes to show the difference between my cells, your cells, and everybody else's cells. And neurons. :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:01 pm

Well....Putin came to my mind first....but it conflicted with what I read. The CONTEXT was Manafort.

I've been criticized for being too structured/rigid in my thinking many times. Its why I lash out here.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:19 pm

I didn't know you were into fly fishing. :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:08 am

Other than "A River Runs Through It"....I'm drawing a blank. Someone who relishes being on their own in a meaningless pursuit matching wits with a fish? ……………..I was thinking something else?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:14 am

Nah, I was simply referring to the throwing motion of a fly fisher (which is similar to that of handling a long whip). And perhaps wishing to stand on some serene river's edge, rather than to try figuring out just what the heck the other person meant. :lol:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:22 am

Still dealing with Fish Brains then?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:28 am

Nah, I used to go fishing. With others. But never actually fished. Just enjoyed the early morning hours on a still fog-blanketed lake, caressed by the timid rays of the same awakening sun that ate away said blanket. Or beside a busy, chattering and/or mumbling creek. The only thing that was talking at those times...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:31 am

I very much enjoy being on the river/lake before the swimmers and ski boaters arrive. Have a six pack for breakfast and hot dogs for a chaser. Don't need to dangle a hook in the water at all...…...will gladly cut bait, or spear worms AND pay my share of the gas.

Thats what I call fishing.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:45 am

Sounds idyllic, you guys. I love fishing, but having grown up in the Midwest, my choice is bass fishing on a large lake, preferably in Minnesota or Wisconsin, and using a lure, not a fly. Cast the lure, reel it in, cast the lure, reel it in... I never caught much, but it's still a happy memory.
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:51 am

One of my fondest memories as a kiddie was going fishing at a stocked pond. A bare hook could catch fish after fish. Staff would clean and filet the fish for you and then you would grill them as desired. Not so much fishing....as just being outside with good fresh food. Would steal a sip of beer from dear old Dad as he and friends played baseball.

Very good times.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:55 am

For catching trout, one needs no more than a little creek, yer sturdy feet and yer two hands. :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:58 am

I'm still talking about my trip to New Zealand. Forget where we were but there was a standard black top basketball court in a schoolyard with a drainage ditch about 8 inches wide that emptied into the ocean 200 feet away. It was filled with 18 inch salmon. Easy to catch with your cooking pot. I don't think they were the smartest salmon in the sea.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:43 am

Heard today an usually rather nice but staunch Repugnant supporter and apologist blurt out when asked about the shameful remarks made by Dump about the deaths in Puerto Rico and other happenings and shortcomings (paraphrased), "We don't care about his personal issues, it's about the policies.", totally ignoring that those "personal issues" revolve around campaign and other violations (and also trying to push through what seems to be an utterly unqualified judge to the soon to be Supine Court), all very unbecoming of a First public servant.

They're not even trying to maintain the thin facade of their moral hypocrisy anymore.


While Stephen Miller runs the White House.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:02 am

since at least Bill Clinton, it has been conservative gospel that policies and character are inseparable.

I think the self-delusion goes as follows: if your guy does it, it's either an extreme outlier or No True Scotsman: on average, it's all fine.
if the opponents are see doing something bad, it's typical behavior, the norm for them, and if left unchecked will lead to much worse.
hence the same behavior in Dems and Reps should not be compared.

in other words: morons, the lot.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Poodle » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I'm still talking about my trip to New Zealand. Forget where we were but there was a standard black top basketball court in a schoolyard with a drainage ditch about 8 inches wide that emptied into the ocean 200 feet away. It was filled with 18 inch salmon. Easy to catch with your cooking pot. I don't think they were the smartest salmon in the sea.
They weren't in the sea. They were in a drainage ditch, I bet they were the smartest salmon in the drainage ditch.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:50 am

ElectricMonk wrote:since at least Bill Clinton, it has been conservative gospel that policies and character are inseparable.

I think the self-delusion goes as follows: if your guy does it, it's either an extreme outlier or No True Scotsman: on average, it's all fine.
if the opponents are see doing something bad, it's typical behavior, the norm for them, and if left unchecked will lead to much worse.
hence the same behavior in Dems and Reps should not be compared.

in other words: morons, the lot.
Yup, that's the evolution of the species, easily marked by the growth rings around Rash Limpjaw's waistline. Back in 1992, when I listened to him regularly, he told his audience day after day that "character matters." Bill Clinton's lies were unforgivable because "words have meaning," and we just couldn't have a President who made money in the corrupt Whitewater mode. And Ken Starr was to be given as many years as needed to trap him on some technicality. When impeachment was voted, he assured everyone this wouldn't be disruptive, since it was a Constitutional procedure.

I haven't heard him lately except in snatches quoted in the news, but I gather that now it's "character matters not at all" and words don't necessarily mean anything. Trump's lies are simply to be passed over in silence, and the way he made his money is nobody else's business. And Mueller has already had far too much time to carry out this investigation, which is a fishing expedition anyway. And the country couldn't possibly stand the trauma of an impeachment, which is only a smoke screen for trying to overturn a lost election.
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:52 pm

Ho hum! Yet one more couple of economic doomsayers. If they are right, please let this happen exactly two years from now, when Trump is trying to get re-elected.
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:00 pm

The thing about economic predictions is: they all come true. ((Eventually.))
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by landrew » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:12 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The thing about economic predictions is: they all come true. ((Eventually.))
And a broken clock has the correct time twice a day.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:43 pm

Yeah....I came close to getting fired at a well remembered board meeting one time. High price Stock Adviser came in and made a total BS presentation treating past history as if he had totally predicted it while taking fees at each step of the process. Used by about half our board members. After I pointed out his tom foolery, it was "I" who got hammered and the Board apologized to the over priced huckster.

I still don't know which board member prevented me from being fired, but the consulting firm (Arthur Anderson I think) was not renewed the next year.

I've always taken the path of preferring to be fired for being right, than for going along and keeping my mouth shut. //// Nothing much has changed.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by ElectricMonk » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:00 pm

landrew wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The thing about economic predictions is: they all come true. ((Eventually.))
And a broken clock has the correct time twice a day.
no.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:47 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yeah....I came close to getting fired at a well remembered board meeting one time. High price Stock Adviser came in and made a total BS presentation treating past history as if he had totally predicted it while taking fees at each step of the process. Used by about half our board members. After I pointed out his tom foolery, it was "I" who got hammered and the Board apologized to the over priced huckster.

I still don't know which board member prevented me from being fired, but the consulting firm (Arthur Anderson I think) was not renewed the next year.

I've always taken the path of preferring to be fired for being right, than for going along and keeping my mouth shut. //// Nothing much has changed.
Soo....you get fired a lot, do you? :mrgreen:
"We survivors did not seek death. We did not take to the streets when our Jewish friends were taken away. We didn’t raise an outcry until we ourselves were being annihilated. We preferred to remain alive, with the flimsy though accurate excuse that our death would not have helped. We are guilty of being alive."

Karl Jaspers (1883–1968), at the re-opening of Heidelberg University, 1945

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:12 pm

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