It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:55 pm

With that, Judge Wood adjourns. I take from the live-tweeting that the judge's concern with the Cohen-Trump request is that appointing a special master will slow the process, according to the prosecution's reasoning, that the special master would receive overly broad privilege assertions from Cohen and Trump and have to deal with each: "They are going to start by bidding high in the amount of privileged material." She seemed unimpressed with the defense concerns about fairness but perplexingly sensitive to the defense argument about the perception of fairness.

Adds TPM, the process for now is that
both sides will go though the documents for privileged material. The government can’t look at the substance of the materials, beyond the narrow search. The judge did not rule out appointing a special master to look through the materials, but said she’d decide at a future hearing.

I don't like where Judge Wood got because 1) the taint/filter team is the recognized (in fact, prescribed) way to deal with the fairness concerns and 2) her hesitation is solely based on Trump conspiracy theorizing about politicization and witch hunting and thus takes the "atmosphere" created by the defense as a reason to consider the defense's concerns about that very atmosphere.

Oh well.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:20 pm

Gord wrote:Give him time!

Do I have to? Or do you mean like, he should do time? In that case, happily.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:40 pm

This piece on the afternoon's courtroom drama in NYC basically takes the same view as I do, that the politicized hysterics of which the Cohen-Trump complain are those created by the Cohen-Trump team.

Great line: "She [Judge Wood] proposed a plan to how to designate such a person efficiently, but Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas McKay called the consideration unnecessary, telling Wood that Cohen has more attorneys than he has clients."
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:43 pm

It seems that Comey has some free time now. Maybe he could be that master. :mrgreen:
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:44 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I don't like where Judge Wood got because 1) the taint/filter team is the recognized (in fact, prescribed) way to deal with the fairness concerns
Recognized by the FBI as internal protocol and accepted as "routine" except when it isn't? Broaden your context.

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I don't like where Judge Wood got because ..... 2) her hesitation is solely based on Trump conspiracy theorizing about politicization and witch hunting and thus takes the "atmosphere" created by the defense as a reason to consider the defense's concerns about that very atmosphere.
aka: an opposing brief that points out possible conflicts: in this case quite reasonable that you have FBI taint teams reviewing FBI claims of lack of privilege. Who can legitimately argue against a neutral third party?

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Oh well.
Yes.....in a land under the operation of "law" the judge has made an INDEPENDENT EVALUATION: JUST as it should be. You really have no articulated objection.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:56 pm

TJrandom wrote:It seems that Comey has some free time now. Maybe he could be that master. :mrgreen:

LOL

I checked the US Attorneys Manual to see what it says about these situations:
Conducting the Search. The search warrant should be drawn as specifically as possible, consistent with the requirements of the investigation, to minimize the need to search and review privileged material to which no exception applies.

While every effort should be made to avoid viewing privileged material, the search may require limited review of arguably privileged material to ascertain whether the material is covered by the warrant. Therefore, to protect the attorney-client privilege and to ensure that the investigation is not compromised by exposure to privileged material relating to the investigation or to defense strategy, a "privilege team" should be designated, consisting of agents and lawyers not involved in the underlying investigation.

. . . Privilege team lawyers should be available either on or off-site, to advise the agents during the course of the search, but should not participate in the search itself.

The affidavit in support of the search warrant may attach any written instructions or, at a minimum, should generally state the government's intention to employ procedures designed to ensure that attorney-client privileges are not violated.

As it does not appear from the proceedings that the prosecution failed to follow any of these guidelines, Judge Wood's ruling is hard to understand except as a result of orchestrated political pressure, indirect as it may be.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: As it does not appear from the proceedings that the prosecution failed to follow any of these guidelines, Judge Wood's ruling is hard to understand except as a result of orchestrated political pressure, indirect as it may be.

You appear to be captured by the notion that a FREAKING FEDERAL JUDGE is obligated to follow internal DOJ guidelines? Ha, ha.......something worse than naivete.

I challenge you: NAME the orchestrated political pressure. aka: you don't have a kazoo to your name.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:04 pm

Adam Davidson on Trump's business dealings, and the Cohen matter: "Michael Cohen and the End Stage of the Trump Presidency"
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:34 pm

Last update on today's Cohen hearing, this one quoting Renato Marriotti:
. . . 8/ Judge Wood said that she isn’t convinced a special master is necessary and that she trusts the integrity of the federal prosecutors and the “taint team” procedure. That’s not surprising, given that taint teams are typically used in situations like these.

9/ In the meantime, the documents are in the hands of the “taint team” until the judge rules. At most, what Cohen and Trump have accomplished is forcing the prosecution to reveal details about their investigation (including search warrants on Cohen’s email accounts).

10/ One point to note is that the search of an attorney’s office or home is not “unprecedented” or problematic. However, the request by Cohen and Trump is without precedent that I’m aware of, and is problematic. Their actions are far more unusual than the prosecution’s. /end

If we didn't live in such a weird environment, one could even say that to the extent that she accedes to the unusual requests of Cohen-Trump, Judge Wood makes their eventual predicament worse. But, of course, we do live in a weird environment: any special master, we will learn, will be the brother of a guy who married a woman who once voted Democratic . . . and the deep state strikes again!

What I'm very interested in is what Sean Hannity is so worried about in these materials.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:48 pm

Ari Melber eviscerated Comey's case for himself tonight.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:21 pm

Loving it:

Sean Hannity wrote:I wanted his input and perspective. I assumed those conversations were attorney-client confidential.


For anybody who got out of kindergarten without cheating on the comprehensive exam, it would be inconceivable that a conversation with an attorney, for which no fees were charged was "attorney-client confidential." Still, with Hannity, that is ALMOST believable. Sean, baby, to be a CLIENT, you have to PAY the attorney.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:24 pm

My head is spinning. Is Nikki Haley now on the chopping block? She announced very confidently on Sunday that new sanctions were coming against Russia. Today, Trump threw her under the bus. If she has any self-respect, she'll resign after such an affront from her boss. But Trump's people are utterly without any sense of their own worth, so she'll stay. They live for the approval of Iosif Vissarionovich Trump
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

But now, thanks to Google, everybody really does have a permanent record. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:25 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Loving it:

Sean Hannity wrote:I wanted his input and perspective. I assumed those conversations were attorney-client confidential.


For anybody who got out of kindergarten without cheating on the comprehensive exam, it would be inconceivable that a conversation with an attorney, for which no fees were charged was "attorney-client confidential." Still, with Hannity, that is ALMOST believable. Sean, baby, to be a CLIENT, you have to PAY the attorney.

I don't think payment s required, actually. It is hard to understand, though, what legal advice Hannity needed that didn't involve third parties. He later said, er, "real estate."

Hannity clearly didn't want his name coming out. He could have prevented today's outing by waiving privilege. But that would have made his communications subject to search. Which he obviously didn't want either. What a tangled web . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:26 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:My head is spinning. Is Nikki Haley now on the chopping block? She announced very confidently on Sunday that new sanctions were coming against Russia. Today, Trump threw her under the bus. If she has any self-respect, she'll resign after such an affront from her boss. But Trump's people are utterly without any sense of their own worth, so she'll stay. They live for the approval of Iosif Vissarionovich Trump

She works for Trump so self-respect likely doesn't enter into it. I take it that she did as instructed, then got whacked when Trump realized what the sanctions implied. But I for sure don't know.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Adam Davidson on Trump's business dealings, and the Cohen matter: "Michael Cohen and the End Stage of the Trump Presidency"


MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN! We've finally gotten past the tipping point. Even if Mueller gets cold-cocked, Trump is toast.
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

But now, thanks to Google, everybody really does have a permanent record. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Upton_O_Goode wrote:Loving it:

Sean Hannity wrote:I wanted his input and perspective. I assumed those conversations were attorney-client confidential.


For anybody who got out of kindergarten without cheating on the comprehensive exam, it would be inconceivable that a conversation with an attorney, for which no fees were charged was "attorney-client confidential." Still, with Hannity, that is ALMOST believable. Sean, baby, to be a CLIENT, you have to PAY the attorney.

I don't think payment s required, actually. It is hard to understand, though, what legal advice Hannity needed that didn't involve third parties. He later said, er, "real estate."

Hannity clearly didn't want his name coming out. He could have prevented today's outing by waiving privilege. But that would have made his communications subject to search. Which he obviously didn't want either. What a tangled web . . .


Hmm, I think Hannity is grasping at straws here. Why would Cohen be the person of choice to go to for advice on real estate? You want to buy a condo? Try 21st Century.
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

But now, thanks to Google, everybody really does have a permanent record. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:37 pm

:hmm: For the special deals ala Trump. ;)


Statistical Mechanic wrote:...
What I'm very interested in is what Sean Hannity is so worried about in these materials.

We might find out eventually, as it seems Cohen's counsel will go down as the person who says "Say what?" (I'm making that up) and then revealing the name/identity of client number three - after having been offered to simply write it down and hand it to the judge. :lol:


Edit: The initial account given was a little misleading. He was ordered to disclose by the judge. Carry on...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:38 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:Hmm, I think Hannity is grasping at straws here. Why would Cohen be the person of choice to go to for advice on real estate? You want to buy a condo? Try 21st Century.

Yup. Ain't it wonderful though?
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Last update on today's Cohen hearing, this one quoting Renato Marriotti:
. . . 8/ Judge Wood said that she isn’t convinced a special master is necessary and that she trusts the integrity of the federal prosecutors and the “taint team” procedure. That’s not surprising, given that taint teams are typically used in situations like these.

9/ In the meantime, the documents are in the hands of the “taint team” until the judge rules. At most, what Cohen and Trump have accomplished is forcing the prosecution to reveal details about their investigation (including search warrants on Cohen’s email accounts).

10/ One point to note is that the search of an attorney’s office or home is not “unprecedented” or problematic. However, the request by Cohen and Trump is without precedent that I’m aware of, and is problematic. Their actions are far more unusual than the prosecution’s. /end

If we didn't live in such a weird environment, one could even say that to the extent that she accedes to the unusual requests of Cohen-Trump, Judge Wood makes their eventual predicament worse. But, of course, we do live in a weird environment: any special master, we will learn, will be the brother of a guy who married a woman who once voted Democratic . . . and the deep state strikes again!

What I'm very interested in is what Sean Hannity is so worried about in these materials.


Legal precedent for this decision eludes me.

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:59 am

Agreed. The Cohen-Trump people couldn't muster one. The course Judge Wood has gone down takes this case outside the usual practices. When the prosecution has acted, by the judge's own description, scrupulously and has followed standard practice, generally accepted by courts, to a T - why does she want to make an exception? It would be less convoluted, more straightforward, and in keeping with past practice simply to tell Cohen-Trump that the "filter team" process is to be followed.

OTOH Cohen and Trump will in the end not wriggle out of this: they will not get to choose documents to feed to the prosecution.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:28 am

Ari Melber on how Comey still doesn't get it: https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/c/ari-m ... vp-AAvXuBv
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:35 am


"New Arizona Poll Shows Another Special Election Upset Is a Possibility":
Maybe not. A new poll of district voters by Emerson College shows Democrat Hiral Tipirneni leading Republican state senator Debbie Lesko by a 46-45 margin.

The only two previous public polls of this race showed Lesko leading by double digits. But the early polling in Pennsylvania’s 18th showed the Republican leading, too; it was Emerson College, as it happens, that first showed the Democratic winner Conor Lamb taking the lead.

No way. But . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:52 am

See, if that happens if will be a beautiful thing.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:26 am

I'm with ya, both on the status of the race - and the long shot "beautiful thing."
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:12 am

attacks on Judge Kimba Wood starting up - Sen Gorka: Bill Clinton's choice for AG, should therefore recuse . . . Mike Cernovich: officiated at George Soros' wedding . . .
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:attacks on Judge Kimba Wood starting up - Sen Gorka: Bill Clinton's choice for AG, should therefore recuse . . . Mike Cernovich: officiated at George Soros' wedding . . .


Surprised that bullfrog chorus didn't start when the case was assigned to her....

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:29 am

Pruitt's "soundproof SCIF" doesn't seem to be exactly that. Is it possible that expensive remodel was done because he is afraid of...... a changing climate? :-P
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:58 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Pruitt's "soundproof SCIF" doesn't seem to be exactly that. Is it possible that expensive remodel was done because he is afraid of...... a changing climate? :-P



He’s afraid of acid rain.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Balmoral95 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:10 am


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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby TJrandom » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:19 am

Balmoral95 wrote:https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-colbert-donald-trump-lawyer_us_5ad551bde4b016a07e9fb8ec


Lol...
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:11 am

Balmoral95 wrote:https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-colbert-donald-trump-lawyer_us_5ad551bde4b016a07e9fb8ec


Satire is dead in this country. TheOnion and others might as well go out of business, since they can't compete with the news of the day.
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

But now, thanks to Google, everybody really does have a permanent record. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg!

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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:13 am

1. Hannity's interest is not looking like an idiot. I know: hard to avoid. The legally sensitive information wanting to be kept secret by extending the Attorney/Client privilege is information created by Cohen that somehow is in Hannity's file.

2. Payment of money for attorney advice is not required. Its just the easiest to show that a relationship was established.

3. The legal precedent is exactly as stated: long standing internal federal provisions for using a taint team. Judges can use "judicial notice" and use these.....or not...as they deem appropriate.

4. Swamp critters: no matter how rich they are, they still want to steal more.....and if they can't steal it, they will waste it. Its almost as if the majesty of the office they have been given means nothing to them.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am

Cohen doesn't understand attorney-client privilege: he thinks he can keep his clients off the books and still protect his communications with them.
Reality check: he can't.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:38 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Cohen doesn't understand attorney-client privilege: he thinks he can keep his clients off the books and still protect his communications with them.
Reality check: he can't.

The privilege stands or falls based on the legitimate expectations of the client.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:54 am

Is this infrastructure week?
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:04 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Cohen doesn't understand attorney-client privilege: he thinks he can keep his clients off the books and still protect his communications with them.
Reality check: he can't.

Yeah but he is really strong on consigliere-client privilege. It's sacred, part of what makes America great again. Stomping on this sacrosanct right is something right out of the Gestapo playbook.

My money is on the government in this, it's likely that the vast majority of Mr Cohen's interactions with his clients fall outside the scope of the privilege. Mr Cohen, OTOH, is a highly sought-after legal mind whose law degree is from Thomas Cooley Law School (WMU).

Hannity would seem to have nothing to worry about if he only had some random chats with Mr Cohen: for the investigators to find anything problematic, there would have to be a document or digital record of some sort, which Sean assured himself doesn't exist.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Monster » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Donald Trump said this on April 16, 2018. This looks to me like it's legally actionable. Like Trump can be sued for saying this.

Comey drafted the Crooked Hillary exoneration long before he talked to her (lied in Congress to Senator G), then based his decisions on her poll numbers. Disgruntled, he, McCabe, and the others, committed many crimes!
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:15 pm

The legal action is NOT ABOUT Hannity....but rather Trump...with the Feds after Cohen to get him to turn.

Don't get distracted.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:42 pm

Monster wrote:Donald Trump said this on April 16, 2018. This looks to me like it's legally actionable. Like Trump can be sued for saying this.

Comey drafted the Crooked Hillary exoneration long before he talked to her (lied in Congress to Senator G), then based his decisions on her poll numbers. Disgruntled, he, McCabe, and the others, committed many crimes!


Comey agrees with you. This is slander/libel, and it is actionable.
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Re: It's the Donnydämmerung! (new Trump thread)

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:01 pm

Disparaging someone in their business or professional life is slander "per se" meaning that no actual damages (lost income usually) is required to be proved. Defense: proof. Exception; Public Figures.

Too many balls to juggle.
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