General Books/Reading Discussion

Holocaust denial and related subjects.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:08 pm

I thought so. Evans savaged Hett's Reichstag fire book, unfairly I think. I wasn't impressed with Kellerhoff's book, which Evans touts. Hett raises a number of points that Kellerhoff never looked into. That said, Hett's book didn't convince me, either (he suggests more or less a wildcat SA involvement).
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:13 pm

He brings that up in the beginning of this book.

It’s a good mix of the micro and macro events going on at the time.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:17 pm

I just did a casual search for the term "Fatherland" here and didn't come across the book by that title that I want to mention.

It may not belong on this particular thread, since it's an "alternate future" novel by Robert Harris from 1992, in which World War II ended with Russia knocked out and resorting to guerilla warfare against the Nazi occupiers, Britain defeated, and the USA stalemated. The Holocaust has been concealed, but is still suspected by many people. The novel is set in a fictional 1964 in which Kennedy is still alive and running for re-election and hoping to get détente with the Nazis. The author shows clear evidence of having at least read Hilberg's work and seen the Lantzmann videos. I found it a pretty good read. Plot synopsis: one honest former U-boat commander, now in the SS, stumbles across documents that detail the planning for the Holocaust. His loyalty to the Reich was already shaky, and it gets destroyed when he reads that the hair taken from women murdered in the camps is to be used to make socks for U-boat crews. It ends very realistically, given the unrealistic premise that Germany could have defeated Britain.
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:07 pm

Its not bad. Maybe on a par with Deighton's SS-GB...

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:29 pm

Upton_O_Goode wrote:I just did a casual search for the term "Fatherland" here and didn't come across the book by that title that I want to mention.

It may not belong on this particular thread, since it's an "alternate future" novel by Robert Harris from 1992, in which World War II ended with Russia knocked out and resorting to guerilla warfare against the Nazi occupiers, Britain defeated, and the USA stalemated. The Holocaust has been concealed, but is still suspected by many people. The novel is set in a fictional 1964 in which Kennedy is still alive and running for re-election and hoping to get détente with the Nazis. The author shows clear evidence of having at least read Hilberg's work and seen the Lantzmann videos. I found it a pretty good read. Plot synopsis: one honest former U-boat commander, now in the SS, stumbles across documents that detail the planning for the Holocaust. His loyalty to the Reich was already shaky, and it gets destroyed when he reads that the hair taken from women murdered in the camps is to be used to make socks for U-boat crews. It ends very realistically, given the unrealistic premise that Germany could have defeated Britain.


Wow, that one’s a blast from the past.

I read that a long, long time ago. I might still own that one. It was really good, I think HBO made a movie with Rutger Hauer as the lead character.

It was a very interesting premise. We discussed all that recently, I thought of ways Germany could have won the war. Naturally bobbo came along and wrecked the thread.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Darren Wilshak » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:48 am

Dystopian novels about Nazis winning and setting up Police states in the UK are pretty dull I think but not nearly as dull as the effort the BBC made of portraying SS GB...

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Upton_O_Goode » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:05 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:Dystopian novels about Nazis winning and setting up Police states in the UK are pretty dull I think but not nearly as dull as the effort the BBC made of portraying SS GB...


About SS GB, I agree with you. It's not nearly as good as "Fatherland." And, as you imply, history turned out as it did. That's why I'm turned off by the board games (which a close friend of mine loves) where the object is to refight the battle of Stalingrad, etc.
The Internet has democratized the old threat our teachers used to hold over us: "That goes on your permanent record." We knew that was a bluff. The only people whose misdeeds were recorded in indelible ink, back then, were husbands.

But now, thanks to Google, everybody really does have a permanent record. Thanks, Mark Zuckerberg!

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:07 pm

Finished with "Death of Democracy."
I liked it. My main issue with it was the lack of citations, other than that it was very good. It provided some new information and I will post some of that when I get a minute.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:31 am

I just finished re-reading Ordinary Men, the new version with the new afterword. It's a library loan so I give it up in a couple of days. Worth the read, before I send it back I'll try and post some items from it.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:18 am

On their way from Jeff Bezos to me:

* Friedrich Kellner, My Opposition: The Diary of Friedrich Kellner - A German against the Third Reich [SPD member]
* Wolf Gruner, German Reich, 1933 – 1937 [document collection, VEJ1]
* Philip Morgan, Hitler's Collaborators: Choosing between bad and worse in Nazi-occupied Western Europe
* Jeffrey S. Kopstein, Intimate Violence: Anti-Jewish Pogroms on the Eve of the Holocaust
* Claire Zalc, Microhistories of the Holocaust (War and Genocide)
* Christian Ingrao, The Promise of the East, Nazi Hopes and Genocide, 1939-43
* Anthony McElligott, The Last Transport: The Holocaust in the Eastern Aegean
* Jacques Semelin, The Survival of the Jews in France: 1940-44

I will be ordering the following when it gets closer to their publication dates:

* Annegret Schüle , Between Persecution and Participation: Biography of a Bookkeeper at J. A. Topf & Söhne
* Giorgos Antoniou, The Holocaust in Greece
* Johannes Dafinger, & Dieter Pohl A New Nationalist Europe Under Hitler: Concepts of Europe and Transnational Networks in the National Socialist Sphere of Influence, 1933–1945
* Sara Bender, In Enemy Land: The Jews of Kielce and the Region, 1939-1946

To fund these purchases I sold my Lambourghini and the vacation home in Izbica, and I also took out a half million dollar loan. After months of slow Holocaust-related publishing activity, I welcome the glut of new titles coming forth and the opportunity they provide to diminish the family nest egg close to zero.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:54 pm

LOL, I bet your wife is so happy....

I’m adding these titles to my reading list:

* Philip Morgan, Hitler's Collaborators: Choosing between bad and worse in Nazi-occupied Western Europe

* Christian Ingrao, The Promise of the East, Nazi Hopes and Genocide, 1939-43
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:12 pm

She is very happy considering the alternatives. For years I raced a formula car. In her eyes this is a vast improvement ;)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:09 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL

On EGs, I do recommend Alex Kay's book on Filbert and Hilary Earl's book on the NMT EG trial.


I’ll take a look. Right now I’m loaded down but I am considering buying “The Holocaust in the Soviet Union” by Lucjan Dobroszycki, “Hitler’s Police Battalions” by Edward Westermann and “Hitler’s Death Squads” by Helmut Langerbein. Those are for the future.


Browning mentions Westerman’s book in his updated version of “Ordinary Men.”
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:14 pm

My library picked up a Kindle copy of Laurence Rees’ “The Holocaust: A New History.” I put a hold on it. I figure it’s worth the read but I don’t want to buy it.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 pm

Taking a weird detour. I downloaded a copy of the Federalist Papers. Haven’t read it in decades and I thought it appropriate for this time.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm

My two cents is that "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" would be more fitting :)
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:58 pm

Anyone read this?
Max Wallace “In the Name of Humanity: The Secret Deal to End the Holocaust.”
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:00 am

Currently reading two books by Van Pelt:

The Evidence Room & Holocaust: A History
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:26 pm

I didn’t like Van Pelt and Dwork’s “Holocaust: A History.” Their Auschwitz book was much better.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:07 pm

the drugs, the whigs, the drugs

https://youtu.be/DyWhFB9ijzA
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Are you having an interesting reaction to your pharmaceuticals?
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:52 pm

LOL my son sent me this and told me I #1 had to listen to it and #2 had to go see them with Leon Bridges when they appear in my neighborhood this autumn. I like it quite a bit. I know why my son does - not because it is a bit psychedelic, but he's a drummer and bass player who loves and plays music from around the world, from classical Indian music to Lăutari bands to Afropop to surf guitar to grunge. Me, I like it for the drugged out sound :) So I went ahead and bought tickets to the show.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:24 pm

I did like it, very smooth. I admire good musicians because I can’t play anything.
I feel my next wave of midlife crisis coming and now I want to learn how to play guitar. My wife gave me a long suffering look when I told her that..... :D
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:49 pm

LOL I love music and listen to it nearly all day, when home, but I cannot play and cannot carry a tune. My son astonishes me, as he's quite a good musician. When he was in high school, his bands, however, had "difficult" names: one was, from a comment Buzz Osborne made about Kurt Cobain, Bordering on Retarded. Blowback was forthcoming so they changed the name to The Phalluses, which didn't go well either, and wound up performing as The Fallacies. The first time I saw them I couldn't believe it, they were actually good! My wife is as musically challenged as I am so we were simply in awe.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:03 pm

I go through periods where I listen to music a lot and then when I don’t. I have satellite radio in my car which is great for whatever mood I’m in. When I don’t want music I get comedy or sports. When I do I have everything from 50’s rock to metal.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:54 pm

I downloaded a copy of Laurence Rees’ “The Holocaust: A New History” from the library. I didn’t want to buy it but I figured it was worth it for free. Sometimes it’s good to get back to the general histories. Before this downloaded I was re-reading Cesarani’s “Final Solution” because I have library books on deck and didn’t want to start anything new.
I will let you know what I think.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:50 pm

Just got an email from Jeff Bezos informing me of the following regarding my order of Arad's The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: "We have good news! We now have delivery date(s) for your item(s) listed below. . . . Your new estimated delivery date is: Wednesday, July 25, 2018."
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:42 pm

Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom" in a local store. Will probably read it in a week or two.

Need to finish "A Shameful Act" by Taner Akcam.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:46 pm

>> Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom"

Interesting material on Majdanek in that book.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby landrew » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:21 am

Denying-History wrote:Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom" in a local store. Will probably read it in a week or two.

Need to finish "A Shameful Act" by Taner Akcam.

I don't read books, just reviews, so hurry up.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:29 am

Lol will do.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Denying-History » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:>> Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom"

Interesting material on Majdanek in that book.

I remember discussing this when David was here.
« Yes, that may surprise some people, including my colleagues. But have no illusions. I never compelled anybody to work for me, just as we didn't compel the German people. They themselves gave us the job to do. Why did you work with me? Now, you'll have your little throat cut...but the earth will shake when we leave the scene... »
- Joseph Goebbels

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:44 am

landrew wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom" in a local store. Will probably read it in a week or two.

Need to finish "A Shameful Act" by Taner Akcam.

I don't read books, just reviews, so hurry up.


Sounds like been-there from RODOH. He is fond of reviewing books he never read.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Just got an email from Jeff Bezos informing me of the following regarding my order of Arad's The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: "We have good news! We now have delivery date(s) for your item(s) listed below. . . . Your new estimated delivery date is: Wednesday, July 25, 2018."



Huh, I thought the paperback version was already released.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:15 am

I don't think so, unless Bezos is {!#%@} with me again - it is the paperback that I ordered, and on his website Bezos says that the pub date was yesterday.
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:16 pm

From what I can understand he can afford {!#%@} with you and everyone else who orders from Amazon..... :D

I haven’t ordered it yet, I wanted to get other books first.
When my son had his barmitzvah, and his wedding, there was no family whatsoever -that’s the way the second and third generation feel the Holocaust, they miss their family. My son hasn’t experienced a family life –having uncles, aunts, grandmothers, grandfathers. There is just that hole.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:38 pm

LOL yeah, that Jeff can pretty much do what he pleases, unfortunately - all in all, as I am so willing to part with my money, he's been nice to me
You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Postby landrew » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
landrew wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Found Donat's "The Holocaust Kingdom" in a local store. Will probably read it in a week or two.

Need to finish "A Shameful Act" by Taner Akcam.

I don't read books, just reviews, so hurry up.


Sounds like been-there from RODOH. He is fond of reviewing books he never read.

I don't review 'em. I leave that to those who have read it.
The job of a skeptic is to investigate the unexplained; not to explain the uninvestigated.


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