Birds are dinosaurs

Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution.
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Lance Kennedy
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Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri May 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Traditionally, living reptiles are divided into four orders.
Crocodilian. Crocodiles, alligators and caimen.
Testudines. Turtles and tortoises.
Squamata. Snakes, lizards, and iguana.
Sphenodones. The tuatara.

But it has become clear in recent years that birds are the closest living relatives to dinosaurs and should probably be a fifth order of reptiles, instead of a separate class of vertebrates, and they have traditionally been seen. In fact, the closest relatives of birds are the fierce dinosaur hunters like Tyrannosaurus and Velociraptor.

Next time you see a sparrow hopping, re-imagine it as a small version of Tyrannosaurus rex.

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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by ElectricMonk » Fri May 11, 2018 8:33 pm

Sorry, but this isn't news.

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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri May 11, 2018 8:43 pm

Just ask the geese...
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by OlegTheBatty » Fri May 11, 2018 9:08 pm

Saying that birds are related to dinosaurs is like saying that apes are related to primates.

The avialae are the only surviving line of coelurosaurian theropods. The rest died out at the K-T boundary, along with a lot of other things, including most mammals. The other line of birdlike dinos, the enantiornitheans, (that little fledgling preserved in amber was one), died out around the same time, were in decline for a long time, and the most recent fossil is from 67 million years ago, so they may not have made it to the K-T.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri May 11, 2018 9:31 pm

Lance must be going thru his posting history and looking for dead horses. Where the branches break to form species is less debateable than when trunks separate to form Classes===========but its all definitional. Nothing changes by the label.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Lance Kennedy » Fri May 11, 2018 10:16 pm

This resulted from a discussion I had with a local friend. I did a little background reading and thought it was an interesting subject. If you disagree, just ignore the thread.

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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Cadmusteeth » Fri May 11, 2018 10:55 pm

Sounds good to me.

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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 12, 2018 3:20 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:This resulted from a discussion I had with a local friend. I did a little background reading and thought it was an interesting subject. If you disagree, just ignore the thread.
Lance must be ignoring your posting history to avoid the dead horses. Where the branches break to form species is less debateable than when trunks separate to form Classes===========but its all definitional. Nothing changes by the label.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Gord » Sat May 12, 2018 6:26 am

There are a couple of researchers, like Alan Feduccia and John Ruben, who still think modern birds descended directly from archosaurs rather than being descended from theropod dinosaurs. However, the scientific consensus remains that birds are, indeed, descended from theropod dinosaurs.

Here's a link to a paper by Alan Feduccia, if you're interested: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... urian_bird

Here's a book review of John Ruben's latest book (I think), Avian Evolution: The Fossil Record of Birds and Its Paleobiological Significance: http://americanornithologypubs.org/doi/ ... =coop-site

And here's an article by Ruben and Feduccia from 1997: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_of_Birds
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Gord » Sat May 12, 2018 6:32 am

...oh, and here's a link to a wikipedia section that talks about it a bit more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scansorio ... pretations

That adds two more names to the list, Stephen Czerkas and Chongxi Yuan. Also, here's a pdf of their paper: http://dinosaur-museum.org/featheredino ... ptoran.pdf
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat May 12, 2018 6:43 am

Just a side issue.......I've seen several pop culture articles on the notion that "all the information" is in the genes and this is "proven" by watching animals develop in utero. Upshot is: with certain genes turned on and off at different stages....it should be dead simple to breed a dinosaur chicken..... From time to time "birth defects" reveal this when chickens are born with tails or with teeth.

I'm sure someone would like a flock of dinosaur chickens?

Also....read the how and why chickens lay eggs every day. Fascinating observation and control of nature.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by landrew » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:39 am

Birds are dinosaurs like Studebakers are tractors. They are similar, but that doesn't make them alike.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:41 am

I think that analogy is wrong. Studebakers did not evolve from tractors....in fact, they came first. (cars over farm equipment).

Species differentiation is all definitional in the labeling. I like the observation by (I forget who perhaps Dawkins) that from dinosaurs to modern birds you could line the generations up one after another and barely perceive any change at all from parent to child and so forth....but over time one kiddie can no longer reproduce with its great greats and a new often totally different looking animal group exists. I'll add: and interestingly...but not if the original parent is still in the population....so evolution takes geographic isolation along with everything else.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:48 pm

"...geographic isolation..." from similar critters.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by landrew » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:52 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think that analogy is wrong. Studebakers did not evolve from tractors....in fact, they came first. (cars over farm equipment).

Species differentiation is all definitional in the labeling. I like the observation by (I forget who perhaps Dawkins) that from dinosaurs to modern birds you could line the generations up one after another and barely perceive any change at all from parent to child and so forth....but over time one kiddie can no longer reproduce with its great greats and a new often totally different looking animal group exists. I'll add: and interestingly...but not if the original parent is still in the population....so evolution takes geographic isolation along with everything else.
Tractors and Studebakers originated from the same roots, but one did not evolve directly from the other. Birds are hypothesized to have evolved from dinosaurs, but transitional forms are lacking. In fact, rare Archaeopteryx fossils have been discovered a long way down the tree from the end of the dinosaurs, 150 million years ago in the Jurassic.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:48 pm

Chachacha wrote:"Oh, thweet mythtery of wife, at waft I've found you!"
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:39 pm

Yes Landrew….that's what I said. Other than: applying evolution to man made objects is only an analogy and that is all I was commenting on. It hardly matters at all which group of dinosaurs birds evolved from.....the magic in the subject is that it happened from whatever group it did. The continuity of life.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by landrew » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Yes Landrew….that's what I said. Other than: applying evolution to man made objects is only an analogy and that is all I was commenting on. It hardly matters at all which group of dinosaurs birds evolved from.....the magic in the subject is that it happened from whatever group it did. The continuity of life.
The teleology of that analogy works perfectly. Nature evolves better forms over time, and so do humans through intelligent design. One analogy does not obviate the other.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:03 pm

".....and so do humans through intelligent design." //// Its usually what is cheapest and barely works. More about FRAUD than design although intelligence is always measured against its goals.
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Re: Birds are dinosaurs

Post by landrew » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:05 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:".....and so do humans through intelligent design." //// Its usually what is cheapest and barely works. More about FRAUD than design although intelligence is always measured against its goals.
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