A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Where no two people are likely to agree.
Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:48 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: I can see you have backed down from your hilarious claim "the CIA runs the world". :D
Tom Palven wrote:Please show me where I backed away from that opinion, Matthew.


Well Tom, you ran away from every simple question I asked you about your hilarious claim, you keep posting. Here let me show you running away again.

1) How does the CIA control China (if it controls the world)?
2) How does the CIA control Russia (if it controls the world)?
3) How does the CIA control India (if it controls the world)?
4) How does the CIA control Australia and New Zealand (if it controls the world)?


You can't answer any of those questions because you are simply here to spam your Russian scripted talk points without supplying any evidence.


Now here is a really really really easy one for you to run away from.
If Donald Trump appointed Mike Pompeo as director of the CIA. does that means the CIA controls the Trump governments and your spammed Russian talk points say, or that Trump government controls the CIA directors?

I know you are not allowed to answer any of these questions. Shall we talk about the flow of information from Moscow to the US Libertarian Party, via the IALP instead? ( You definitely aren't allowed to talk about that ) :lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:28 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: I can see you have backed down from your hilarious claim "the CIA runs the world". :D
Tom Palven wrote:Please show me where I backed away from that opinion, Matthew.


[color=#000080]Well Tom, you ran away from every simple question I asked you about your hilarious claim, you keep posting.



I simply continue to maintain that the Central Intelligence Agency runs the world (although it is losing its grip.), and have provided a multitude of reasons why I think so.

The monument to courage honors Snowden, Assange, and Manning,

I assume that you continue to maintain that they are traitors your beloved CIA and to the Fourth Reich that it controls.

You consider Snowden, Assange, and Manning to be your enemies, yes or no?

(I wouldn't mind adding MLK to that monument, and think that a good case could be made for adding John Lennon and Muhammed Ali, too.)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9552
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:46 pm

How about Trumpie?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:44 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I simply continue to maintain that the Central Intelligence Agency runs the world (although it is losing its grip.), and have provided a multitude of reasons why I think so.


You have provided no evidence that the CIA "runs the world".

You cannot even describe how your delusion works, : How does the CIA run China? India? Australia? Russia? the UK?

You are simply posting Russian talk points to discredit the CIA and FBI during their Trump investigation.


(Hey Tom? Are you still a paid up member of the Libertarian Party? Would that be the New Jersey or Moscow branch?) :lol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertari ... _of_Russia

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:50 pm

Tom Palven wrote: You consider Assange,to be your enemies, yes or no?

Yes.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:56 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: You consider Snowden, Assange, and Manning to be your enemies, yes or no?

Yes.



My heroes, your enemies.

Seems we hve some irreconcilable differences going on.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:16 am

Tom Palven wrote:Seems we hve some irreconcilable differences going on.
No Tom. It seems you have irreconcilable difference going on in your own posts.

You claim the CIA runs the world, but can't offer one iota of evidence to support that insane claim.

You claim the CIA runs the US government while simultaneously watching Trump's government appoint directors and management at the CIA.

You claim Assange is a hero, for releasing Democrat email information, the Russians actually released on their Wikileaks , to do maximum damage to the USA.

You wan't to disband the CIA and FBI because ....because......because....(in reality, they are getting to close to indicting Donald Trump, who Russia wants to keep in power).

Like a typical Russian talking points bot, You are good are pumping out scripted propaganda, but totally unable to answer any questions about the content, because you haven't got a clue what any of it actually means.
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Seems we hve some irreconcilable differences going on.
[color=#000080]No Tom. It seems you have irreconcilable difference going on in your own posts.

You claim the CIA runs the world, but can't offer one iota of evidence to support that insane claim.


Try reading a few books on the CIA such as Freeing the World to Death by William Blum and see if you can break away from your James Bond/Rambo/John Wayne Guys in Green and Red Berets and White Hats fantasies and acquire some new heroes.

THEN convince me that the Central Intelligence Agency apparatchiki don't run the US government (including the military and the MIC) which in turn controls, with carrots and sticks, NATO, the World Bank, and thus the world ( although this control is becoming more and more tenuous as the sun begins to set on the ethically and financially bankrupt US Empire after which a New Dawn may emerge in North America).
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9552
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Tom Palven wrote: ... THEN convince me that the Central Intelligence Agency apparatchiki don't run the US government ...


Well, stop right there Tom. We both know that Republicans run the US government, not the CIA.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:48 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: ... THEN convince me that the Central Intelligence Agency apparatchiki don't run the US government ...


Well, stop right there Tom. We both know that Republicans run the US government, not the CIA.


The fact that Republican politicians may influence the Deep State to some degree should be cited as evidence that the US is not only ethically and financially bankrupt, but also intellectually bankrupt.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2967
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:08 pm
Custom Title: Yes that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Tom Palven wrote: You consider Snowden, Assange, and Manning to be your enemies, yes or no?


I don't consider any of them to be my enemy, but only Snowden do I consider a good guy.

Assange and Manning are blackmailer and blackmailee, even if a case can be made for Assange doing some good along the way.

And MLK already has his own monument, sneer of cold command and all.
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2967
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:08 pm
Custom Title: Yes that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:15 pm

As for John Lennon and Muhammad Ali ...


:roll: and :lol: respectively.
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:As for John Lennon and Muhammad Ali ...


:roll: and :lol: respectively.


Muhammed Ali fought the draft, saying that the Vietnamese weren't his enemies, and was stripped of his boxing titles.

Lennon wasn't particularly courageous, but was an outstanding advocate for world peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennon_Wall

YHMV (Your Heroes May Vary) Tim Tebow, anyone? ;)

Oh, and yeah, I don't think that that statue captures MLK at all.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14685
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:11 pm

Seems to me EVERYONE would agree the noted personages were/are all REBELS. After that, hero status is gained or denied based on your politics.

Of the group, Muhammad Ali is a standout in my view. He actually "gave up" something dear to take the stand he did AND that stand arguably hurt no one but himself. Sadly, I don't think it helped much either, but it was at least another brick on the load the Pro-War types want everyone else to shoulder....

The most impactful is Assange with a close follow up if not tie by Snowden. Does it even matter which one was an agent of Russia etc if what was revealed is the truth?====I don't think so.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2967
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:08 pm
Custom Title: Yes that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:As for John Lennon and Muhammad Ali ...


:roll: and :lol: respectively.


Muhammed Ali fought the draft, saying that the Vietnamese weren't his enemies, and was stripped of his boxing titles.


Fair enough, but really all he did was flunk the IQ test.

Lennon wasn't particularly courageous, but was an outstanding advocate for world peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennon_Wall



Emphasis added.

You forgot the "scare quotes". :P
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14685
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:52 pm

AA: what's your point? Even if true (Haven't heard that one before) I thought flunking an IQ was a basic requirement to be a grunt? I think Ali showed smarts as a young man, linguistically and marketing clever. Kinda stupid to get caught up in religion, but then smart enough to weigh the pros and cons of fighting a white man's war.

Related: we all know, as Ali Showed, that getting boxed in the head is not good......and it only took 40 years for the same thing to finally get some notice in football.

The poor working class has always traded their physical health for a (sub) living wage. Its basic economics (of a sort) that the jobs no one wants pays the least. I always marveled at that as I pushed papers around my desk. I'd take a miners pay to keep my job and give my pay to the boxers...etc. course, with lots of bodies around, its not the physical demands that command the higher salaries.........a different set of economic rules apply.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:48 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:As for John Lennon and Muhammad Ali ...

Lennon wasn't particularly courageous, but was an outstanding advocate for world peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennon_Wall



Emphasis added.

You forgot the "scare quotes". :P


Imho John Lennon was the real deal and no scare quotes were needed.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=all+we+ar ... =QBRE&sp=3
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:40 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Try reading a few books on the CIA
I have read many books on the CIA and other intelligence services. That's why I know your claims are total crap and that you have no evidence "the CIA controls the world"

You didn't even know, basic stuff, like who the "Five eyes" are, which was just funny. :D


Tom Palven wrote:THEN convince me......
It's your claim that you can't provide any evidence for. I don't have to lift a finger. :lol:

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:44 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Lennon wasn't particularly courageous, but was an outstanding advocate for world peace.

His war films were good too. :D
john-lennon-how-i-won-the-war_07.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:48 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The most impactful is Assange with a close follow up if not tie by Snowden. Does it even matter which one was an agent of Russia etc if what was revealed is the truth?====I don't think so.


Well let's say, Wikileaks only released the Russian dirt on Hillary Clinton but not the Russian dirt on Trump.

As you are now probably aware Nigel Farage was handing Assange documents concerning Brexit, which Wikileaks also released. That's how Russia helped push the UK out of Europe.

Russia loves Wikileaks. Here's Sergey Naryshkin saying why Russia bought Wikileaks.
:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf22bddvLnc

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14685
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:56 pm

Matt: Great caption.

Re Russia and Brexit. we have our Nukes and such but Wikileaks and such show how cheaply a damaging blow to your adversaries can be cheaply delivered. Hmmmm....should I add this to my Hobbies Thread????

I love the hypocrisy re outrage over Russia's interference. We've been doing this for decades to them. Seems like turn around is fair dinkum?==>and can't wait for the cyber wars to start in earnest. Our real gripe: they are better at it than we are.......and they aren't even native English speakers. Kinda........embarrassing.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:07 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: I love the hypocrisy re outrage over Russia's interference. We've been doing this for decades to them.
That's why I laugh at "Wikileaks". Wikileaks is just another version of the old UK and USA intelligence scam of setting up international scientific journals so they can filter particular information to the Russians. We can also add "Radio Free Europe" to that class of scam. Radio Free Europe does tell the truth, but not all of the truth.

To me, old schemes and scams can be dressed up in new technology, but they are still the old 1917 scams of Felix Dzerzhinsky and the old KGB.

Wikileaks most reminds me of "The Trust" from 1919. The UK, French and US anti-Communists, supporting the White Russians in the Russian Civil War joined "the Trust" to pool resources. What they didn't know is that the Russian communists actually ran it and used "the Trust" to feed information back that the communists were winning, when they weren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trust

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2967
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:08 pm
Custom Title: Yes that one.
Location: Chicago

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:53 pm

Clarification: Ali flunked the IQ test on purpose.
Aldous Huxley wrote:A government with a comprehensive plan for the betterment of society is a government that uses torture.

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Lennon wasn't particularly courageous, but was an outstanding advocate for world peace.

His war films were good too.
john-lennon-how-i-won-the-war_07.jpg


It was an ANTI-war film.

How I Won the War
"...stylized World War II comedy ...and autherntic newsreel footage that lampoons the absurdity of war."-- Netflix
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:18 pm

Tom Palven wrote: It was an ANTI-war film.
It was a comedy by Richard Lester. You obviously have never watched it.

How I Won the War is a black comedy film directed and produced by Richard Lester, released in 1967, based on a novel of the same name by Patrick Ryan. The film stars Michael Crawford as bungling British Army Officer Lieutenant Earnest Goodbody, with John Lennon (in his only non-musical role, as Musketeer Gripweed), Jack MacGowran (Musketeer Juniper), Roy Kinnear (Musketeer Clapper) and Lee Montague (Sergeant Transom) as soldiers under his command. The film uses an inconsistent variety of styles—vignette, straight-to-camera, and, extensively, parody of the war film genre, docu-drama, and popular war literature—to tell the story of 3rd Troop, the 4th Musketeers (a fictional regiment reminiscent of the Royal Fusiliers) and their misadventures in the Second World War.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:35 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Try reading a few books on the CIA such as Freeing the World to Death by William Blum .......
As you claim this book has hard evidence that the CIA controls the world, how about you set out that evidence for us?

Unless of course there is no evidence in that book, that the CIA controls the world.
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:38 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I have read many books on the CIA and other intelligence services.


I'm sure that you have, and I bet that you read The Spy Who Loved Me more than once. :lol:
(You didn't ghost-write that for Ian Fleming, did you?)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:10 am

Tom Palven wrote:I'm sure that you have, and I bet that you read The Spy Who Loved Me more than once.
Nope. Spycatcher as our Prime minister was Peter Wright's barrister in the 90's against the UK government. That was about Soviet penetration of Mi5.......you wouldn't understand any of it because it's real history...... you should stick to Get Smart.

So, let's try again before you run away. You claim you have evidence the CIA runs the world and claimed Blum's book which, you lied and claimed has the evidence. No essay in the book says that at all.

So set out this so called evidence Tom? :lol:

(Tom desperately tries to change subject before running away again)
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: A Monument to Courage is Being Planned

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I'm sure that you have, and I bet that you read The Spy Who Loved Me more than once.
[color=#000080]Nope. Spycatcher as our Prime minister was Peter Wright's barrister in the 90's against the UK government. That was about Soviet penetration of Mi5.......you wouldn't understand any of it because it's real history.


As our self-acknowledged expert in world affairs, how about explaining to us all what is going on in Syria at the moment?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:46 am

Tom Palven wrote:As our self-acknowledged expert in world affairs, how about explaining to us all what is going on in Syria at the moment?
Yep......but before I do that :

You directly lied and faked a citation on a Skeptic forum. Freeing the World to Death by William Blum, does not mention the CIA ruling the world at all in any of its essays. You never read it. :lol:

You lied and pretended it did because your Russian talk point that "The CIA controls the world" is simply a crap Russian talk point, and has nothing to do with evidence or the real world.

Gee Tom......how much lower can you go? Faking citations and running away from any questions about your propaganda claims.

Why don't you join a religious forum, because you have no place spamming Russian propaganda on a skeptic forum.
:lol:

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:33 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:As our self-acknowledged expert in world affairs, how about explaining to us all what is going on in Syria at the moment?
Yep......but before I do that :

You directly lied and faked a citation on a Skeptic forum. Freeing the World to Death by William Blum, does not mention the CIA ruling the world at all in any of its essays. You never read it. :lol:

You lied and pretended it did because your Russian talk point that "The CIA controls the world" is simply a crap Russian talk point, and has nothing to do with evidence or the real world.

Gee Tom......how much lower can you go? Faking citations and running away from any questions about your propaganda claims.

Why don't you join a religious forum, because you have no place spamming Russian propaganda on a skeptic forum.
:lol:


Tell us what the CIA plans are for Syria.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:20 pm

Tom Palven wrote: Tell us what the CIA plans are for Syria.
No Tom. You cannot change the subject to avoid your previous lies. Either you have evidence, for your Russian talk point, "The CIA controls the world" or you don't. Show us your one best piece of evidence, that "The CIA runs the world".

What was that? You don't have any?
:lol:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14685
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Either you have evidence, for your Russian talk point, "The CIA controls the world" or you don't. Show us your one best piece of evidence, that "The CIA runs the world".

If they did/could...I'd guess it would be thru an indirect method...like world finance? The World Bank or thru something sneaky that no one knows about or understands like basic interbank credit mechanisms like Libor and such. EG: all the effort to keep the Dollar as the primary world exchange unit rather than some Chinese/Russian/Middle East denomination. Who knows what all that stuff means?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:52 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: "The CIA controls the world"
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:If they did/could...I'd guess it would be thru an indirect method...like world finance?
Well there is a couple problems with that.

Firstly, as the CIA was penetrated by Russian agents in the 80s, including the head of the counter Soviet desk, the CIA was very leaky and any financial manipulation would be known and exposed by the Russians.


However more pragmatically, investigating international money laundering is one of the main methods the CIA, SIS, BND, DSGE, ASIS and CSIS hunt down arms sales. If the CIA controlled the world why does it have no control over money laundering or illegal arms sales? (I admit that the Iran Contra affair and Air Vietnam did include illegal arms sales and drug sales, however this was in scenarios where the USA was at war with another country which is direct evidence the CIA does not control the world. The CIA dumped its Air America heroin in Australia, so we quit Vietnam in 1972 and left the Yanks on their own, which is more evidence the CIA doesn't control the world.

One of my biggest laughs is people who post talk points saying the USA should return to the Gold Standard. There isn't enough gold on the planet to back the current US economy and the biggest producer of gold is.....guess who? ....China and Australia......who already have an incredibly interwoven supply chain .

Let's see if Tom Palven wants to return to the gold standard.
:D

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: The CIA dumped its Air America heroin in Australia, so we quit Vietnam in 1972 and left the Yanks on their own, which is more evidence the CIA doesn't control the world.


That was a long time ago, Matt.

How about getting serious and telling us what the CIA plans are for Syria?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has No Life
Posts: 14685
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am
Custom Title: bobbo da existential pragmatist

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: If the CIA controlled the world why does it have no control over money laundering or illegal arms sales?
Good points...unless it is allowed so that the CIA can gain from it in some other way?....you did cover it most likely enough though. I can see that "control" is much too strong a concept. Finagle, dither, and "try". I can see a lot of that going on.......and if the World is too large.... then maybe for sure in the Western Hemisphere? Monroe Doctrine from pole to pole?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Tom Palven
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5372
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:29 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: If the CIA controlled the world why does it have no control over money laundering or illegal arms sales?
Good points...unless it is allowed so that the CIA can gain from it in some other way?


The CIA has long been up to its eyeballs in moneylaundering and both "legal" and "illegal" arms and drug sales.

What are its plans for Syria? Anybody's guess?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: The CIA dumped its Air America heroin in Australia, so we quit Vietnam in 1972 and left the Yanks on their own, which is more evidence the CIA doesn't control the world.


Tom Palven wrote:That was a long time ago, Matt.
.....and? Your hilarious claim, the CIA controls the world was complete crap then and complete crap now. :lol:

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:13 am

Tom Palven wrote: The CIA has long been up to its eyeballs in moneylaundering and both "legal" and "illegal" arms and drug sales.
Give us an example of all three, from the last ten years.

This is going to be hilarious, as you don't have a clue who the ISI is, or anything about arm sales, or anything about money laundering.
:lol:

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28559
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Tom tries to change the subject again

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: If the CIA controlled the world why does it have no control over money laundering or illegal arms sales?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: Good points...unless it is allowed so that the CIA can gain from it in some other way?


This brings up a good point, which I will call "For what purpose would you do that?"

An important aspect of non-passive intelligence work is to get the enemy to waste his resources. There is no point spending tens of millions of dollars to get into second hand Russian tank sales, on the arms market, if you can simply bribe one bloke $50,000 and find out where those tanks are being delivered and arrest all of them legally through the international end user certificate regime.


There is no point bribing individual Afghanistan farmers to not grow heroin poppies, if you can let corrupt Pakistani intelligence officers collect all the heroin and then bust them (and blow up their lavish homes on the Pakistan Afghanistan border as a deterrent to the next lot of corrupt Pakistani officers)

There is no point joining a civil war with your own troops and resources. if you can get internal enemies to wipe each other out, through some well placed propaganda.

What I'm suggesting is that every country's intelligence steering committee will state their end result goal and then the "back room boys" will work out the least costly, least dangerous and least politically exposed, plan.

The CIA setting up money laundering networks is very very expensive and simply silly if you aren't actually laundering any money for commissions. The CIA simply bribes already existing money launderers to tell the CIA what's going on.


Return to “Politics and Government”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest