Blind in the mind

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Dimebag
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Blind in the mind

Post by Dimebag » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:55 am

While listening to a podcast recently I came across the mental condition known as aphantasia, which roughly is defined as being unable to have any kind of mental imagery within ones mind, which is not part of ones visual experience of the external world.

Upon listening to the discussion within the podcast, I cast myself inwards, as I had always thought I could visualise rather easily within my "mind's eye" as they call it. Upon closer inspection, however, I found the task rather difficult to say the least. Now that's not to say that I would call myself an aphantasiac, I do experience imagery from time to time, however it is not very controllable, for example, if the task was to picture a red apple within my mental imagery I would have difficulty in conjuring up the image at will, although with enough time and some luck it might be possible.

It has been said that mental imagery exists on a scale, with some people being capable of picturing highly detailed scenes with vivid colours, being able to mentally rotate objects within ones own mind, but to name a few of the things which are possible. I do however, not feel impeded by finding it difficult to conjure this imagery, because although I may not be able to see a certain thing with ease, I still have access to all of the benefits of having such a skill.

I would be curious to hear about other people here and if you can produce mental imagery or not, and to what extent.

Thanks.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:02 pm

Have you ever read a book and imagined the scenes described?

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:28 pm

I've worked "photo interpretation" jobs and "revisualizing" the images was my favorite part.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Dimebag » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:36 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Have you ever read a book and imagined the scenes described?

Yes I have, and in fact from what is described in the podcast I listened to, people with aphantasia find written descriptions of a visual scene to be meaningless to them, and tend to skip over such descriptions. What I think is going on is, whether you have mental imagery or not is one variable, and a second variable is the degree to which the content can easily rise to conscious awareness. For some people they might only become aware of the knowledge component of such imagery, from a conceptual standpoint, and for others the knowledge component is also accompanied by varying degrees of consciously perceived imagery. Just a thought.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:01 pm

Most likely....you want a "watching tv experience" inside your eyelids. Its not that.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Dimebag » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:59 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Most likely....you want a "watching tv experience" inside your eyelids. Its not that.

Well, for me it's certainly not. I am not sure if I can imagine colour either, I don't think so. Furthermore, the imagery seems to occupy a space outside my field of vision, if that can be understood, it seems to appear just out of vision, above my typical field of vision. It usually results in the moving of my eyes up, not sure if they favour a particular side.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Dimebag wrote:While listening to a podcast recently I came across the mental condition known as aphantasia, which roughly is defined as being unable to have any kind of mental imagery within ones mind, which is not part of ones visual experience of the external world.

Upon listening to the discussion within the podcast, I cast myself inwards, as I had always thought I could visualise rather easily within my "mind's eye" as they call it. Upon closer inspection, however, I found the task rather difficult to say the least.


I may be incorrect, but I thought creating an image in one's "mind's eye" was always going to be a mixture of fresh brand new things mixed with already learned images or parts of those images. If I imagine a brick building and have experience of a brick wall. I will incorporate that known image of my brick wall into my fresh image.

Gawdzilla talked about photo interpretation. Constance Babington Smith talked about letting a variety of photo-interpreters to look at the same image, because it triggered different recognition patterns in different people. That sort of seems the same thing.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by TJrandom » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:24 pm

I have been spectacularly successful in mental imaging while having sex... :chip:

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:17 am

Dimebag wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Most likely....you want a "watching tv experience" inside your eyelids. Its not that.

Well, for me it's certainly not. I am not sure if I can imagine colour either, I don't think so. Furthermore, the imagery seems to occupy a space outside my field of vision, if that can be understood, it seems to appear just out of vision, above my typical field of vision. It usually results in the moving of my eyes up, not sure if they favour a particular side.

While we never know the mind/perception of anyone else......I suspect you are still stuck in the tv mode of expectation/appreciation/communication. There is no "vision" in the visual imaging that the MIND does. I'm sure some folks do that, but the term is more general as it applies to the general population. This subject really shows how limiting our vocabulary is. We have 10 words for snow, the Eskimos have 50+. The needs and experiences of the culture. For the minds eye, we have about zero words. New concepts are like that.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:40 am

I've been having trouble picturing things in my mind for the past 30 years. As an example, I have great difficulty planning a route when I travel.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:03 am

Gord wrote:I've been having trouble picturing things in my mind for the past 30 years. As an example, I have great difficulty planning a route when I travel.

Use the other side of your brain.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:21 pm

Dimebag wrote:While listening to a podcast recently I came across the mental condition known as aphantasia, which roughly is defined as being unable to have any kind of mental imagery within ones mind, which is not part of ones visual experience of the external world.
The other end of that scale must be Tesla. It's said he never built a 'Mark 1,' that he visualized the completed item and built the final product in one go.

At the same time, I don't know whether it's possible to formulate mental imagery 'from scratch,' without having the components of the imagery already existing as visual experiences in your memory. For example, I can easily form a mental image of what I want my kitchen to look like after the remodel, but that image is comprised of colors, shapes, textures, and objects that already exist in my memory because I've seen them. What I'm doing is assembling imagery, not creating it.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:53 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote: What I'm doing is assembling imagery, not creating it.

Thats it. Nice distinction.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:10 pm

Dimebag wrote:While listening to a podcast recently I came across the mental condition known as aphantasia, which roughly is defined as being unable to have any kind of mental imagery within ones mind, which is not part of ones visual experience of the external world.

Upon listening to the discussion within the podcast, I cast myself inwards, as I had always thought I could visualise rather easily within my "mind's eye" as they call it. Upon closer inspection, however, I found the task rather difficult to say the least. Now that's not to say that I would call myself an aphantasiac, I do experience imagery from time to time, however it is not very controllable, for example, if the task was to picture a red apple within my mental imagery I would have difficulty in conjuring up the image at will, although with enough time and some luck it might be possible.

It has been said that mental imagery exists on a scale, with some people being capable of picturing highly detailed scenes with vivid colours, being able to mentally rotate objects within ones own mind, but to name a few of the things which are possible. I do however, not feel impeded by finding it difficult to conjure this imagery, because although I may not be able to see a certain thing with ease, I still have access to all of the benefits of having such a skill.

I would be curious to hear about other people here and if you can produce mental imagery or not, and to what extent.

Thanks.
Hey Dimebag. I have often thought that my ability to visualize things was pretty much limited to very vague and hazy conceptualizations of things. I think I might be an aphantasiac too some extent. Can't know how good the visualization is for the people that can visualize things well. I always assumed it would be like hallucinating the thing.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:58 pm

Dimebag wrote:Upon listening to the discussion within the podcast, I cast myself inwards, as I had always thought I could visualise rather easily within my "mind's eye" as they call it. Upon closer inspection, however, I found the task rather difficult to say the least. Now that's not to say that I would call myself an aphantasiac, I do experience imagery from time to time, however it is not very controllable, for example, if the task was to picture a red apple within my mental imagery I would have difficulty in conjuring up the image at will, although with enough time and some luck it might be possible.
When I first began using visualization to help counter insomnia, the therapist gave me the image of an orange. I kept trying to visualize the orange, but my brain insisted on visualizing a Granny Smith apple instead. Since the image served the purpose, I didn't fight it and try to imagine the orange. Instead, I went with the apple.

I don't think this proved I lacked the ability to visualize an orange...just that I had more images of apples already in my memory, so it was easier for me to visualize it. At first, I was only able to imagine the Granny Smith's unique color, but my image lacked texture. Over time, it became the perfect Granny Smith, complete with texture. Eventually, I was able to add the tart/sweet scent and distinctive taste to the image.

Visualization is kind of like juggling; you start small and work your way to the more complex. Before you know it, you're juggling running chainsaws, vials of nitroglycerine, and rabid wolverines. :mrgreen: Like any other brain activity, it takes practice.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Dimebag » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:00 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
Dimebag wrote:Upon listening to the discussion within the podcast, I cast myself inwards, as I had always thought I could visualise rather easily within my "mind's eye" as they call it. Upon closer inspection, however, I found the task rather difficult to say the least. Now that's not to say that I would call myself an aphantasiac, I do experience imagery from time to time, however it is not very controllable, for example, if the task was to picture a red apple within my mental imagery I would have difficulty in conjuring up the image at will, although with enough time and some luck it might be possible.
When I first began using visualization to help counter insomnia, the therapist gave me the image of an orange. I kept trying to visualize the orange, but my brain insisted on visualizing a Granny Smith apple instead. Since the image served the purpose, I didn't fight it and try to imagine the orange. Instead, I went with the apple.

I don't think this proved I lacked the ability to visualize an orange...just that I had more images of apples already in my memory, so it was easier for me to visualize it. At first, I was only able to imagine the Granny Smith's unique color, but my image lacked texture. Over time, it became the perfect Granny Smith, complete with texture. Eventually, I was able to add the tart/sweet scent and distinctive taste to the image.

Visualization is kind of like juggling; you start small and work your way to the more complex. Before you know it, you're juggling running chainsaws, vials of nitroglycerine, and rabid wolverines. :mrgreen: Like any other brain activity, it takes practice.
Very interesting, thanks Nikki. When I try to imagine an orange I have some success, I seem to be able to visualise somewhat the porous texture of the skin, though no colour is present, I can imagine the dimpling as well as the slightly bland bitter taste of the white stringy material below the outer skin, and to some extent occasionally have a mild sense of the citrus scent,particularly when I imagine the skin itself being squeezed. I think my imagery seems to be related to the embodied nature of interacting with an orange, so that what I am experiencing is what my mind remembers of the orange manipulation experience, and what it expects to sense during that interaction.

What could be happening is the top down trickling of conceptual representations, and people are finding ways to trigger these systems, basically remembering and predicting future sensations. The more a person manipulates these circuits by deliberate willpower, the stronger and easier it is to do so, a distinct pathway becomes laid down. What I wonder is, does one become skilled for any kind of remembering/visualising, or only the specific things they visualise?

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:01 am

Interesting topic this. I've never heard of the expression aphantasia, but I certainly can bring images and colour etc to my mind.

Many of you would be familiar with the term/expression "Eidetic memory". In recent times this expression was used in The Big Bang TV series in describing Sheldon's ability to recall vivid memories of past experiences.

Now I'm no scholar in this phenomena, but I can describe events in my life back to when I was 4 or 5 years old. I'm not trying to say I'm special, but I have a very vivid memory recall. In respect to my Army years, I wish this wasn't true. But apparently some of us have this ability, or maybe, this curse. Don't know, but sometimes it scares the {!#%@} out of me.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Poodle » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:45 am

It's all very strange. I'm like you, Phoenix, in that I have very vivid visual (full colour) and aural memories back to very early childhood (pre-school), and I always thought this was run-of-the-mill. Apparently not. I cannot imagine what it would be NOT to be like that.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Aztexan » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:42 pm

You can't be blind in the mind but you can be
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by OlegTheBatty » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:30 pm

Poodle wrote:It's all very strange. I'm like you, Phoenix, in that I have very vivid visual (full colour) and aural memories back to very early childhood (pre-school), and I always thought this was run-of-the-mill. Apparently not. I cannot imagine what it would be NOT to be like that.
I'm surprised too. We moved from my first home 2 months before my 2nd birthday, yet I have 3 distinct, full colour memories from when we lived there. I also have memories of the place we stayed(for 2 months) while moving, and my first night/day in the new home, which would have been right around my 2nd birthday (which I don't remember).
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:44 am

Dimebag wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:When I first began using visualization to help counter insomnia, the therapist gave me the image of an orange. I kept trying to visualize the orange, but my brain insisted on visualizing a Granny Smith apple instead. Since the image served the purpose, I didn't fight it and try to imagine the orange. Instead, I went with the apple.

I don't think this proved I lacked the ability to visualize an orange...just that I had more images of apples already in my memory, so it was easier for me to visualize it. At first, I was only able to imagine the Granny Smith's unique color, but my image lacked texture. Over time, it became the perfect Granny Smith, complete with texture. Eventually, I was able to add the tart/sweet scent and distinctive taste to the image.

Visualization is kind of like juggling; you start small and work your way to the more complex. Before you know it, you're juggling running chainsaws, vials of nitroglycerine, and rabid wolverines. :mrgreen: Like any other brain activity, it takes practice.
Very interesting, thanks Nikki. When I try to imagine an orange I have some success, I seem to be able to visualise somewhat the porous texture of the skin, though no colour is present, I can imagine the dimpling as well as the slightly bland bitter taste of the white stringy material below the outer skin, and to some extent occasionally have a mild sense of the citrus scent,particularly when I imagine the skin itself being squeezed. I think my imagery seems to be related to the embodied nature of interacting with an orange, so that what I am experiencing is what my mind remembers of the orange manipulation experience, and what it expects to sense during that interaction.

What could be happening is the top down trickling of conceptual representations, and people are finding ways to trigger these systems, basically remembering and predicting future sensations. The more a person manipulates these circuits by deliberate willpower, the stronger and easier it is to do so, a distinct pathway becomes laid down. What I wonder is, does one become skilled for any kind of remembering/visualising, or only the specific things they visualise?
That makes sense on the principles of neural plasticity, a.k.a. "practice makes perfect." In my experience, over time, one does become more skilled at visualizing whatever is in one's memory, even taking multiple items from memory and combining them.

For example, a friend of mine has been teaching me to sew. It's not a skill my mom possessed, so I never learned. Often, while waiting to fall asleep, I'll visualize things I'd eventually like to create, and they're not ideas I've seen elsewhere. Obviously, though, I've seen all the elements of my designs elsewhere, just not put together the way I have. My brain takes my memories of, say, a coat with a fur lining and trim, medieval slashed bell sleeves, a hood, toggle fastenings, a corset back, a floor-length "skirt," and intricate appliqué and combines them into a single, unique coat.

You could probably do the same, if you don't already. I imagine that this process is familiar to inventors, musicians, artists, designers, architects, and anyone who creates something new. We have the memory of all the notes; we just rearrange them into a new composition.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 am

Phoenix76 wrote:Interesting topic this. I've never heard of the expression aphantasia, but I certainly can bring images and colour etc to my mind.

Many of you would be familiar with the term/expression "Eidetic memory". In recent times this expression was used in The Big Bang TV series in describing Sheldon's ability to recall vivid memories of past experiences.

Now I'm no scholar in this phenomena, but I can describe events in my life back to when I was 4 or 5 years old. I'm not trying to say I'm special, but I have a very vivid memory recall. In respect to my Army years, I wish this wasn't true. But apparently some of us have this ability, or maybe, this curse. Don't know, but sometimes it scares the {!#%@} out of me.
It's called Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory (HSAM). Unfortunately, I have the opposite: Severely Deficient Autobiographical Memory (SDAM).

I have a fantastic memory for things I've learned semantically, but I lack episodic (or experiential) memory, in that I can't relive experiences. Sometimes, I can get snippets of the experience, but I always view them as an observer, not a participant. I couldn't possibly relate the events of my 7th birthday party, my 4th grade field trip, my 10th Christmas, my high school graduation, etc.

I'm unsure whether those memories never got transferred to long-term storage or whether I simply can't access them, although I suspect the latter. And I honestly thought it was perfectly normal...until decades of friendship with someone with HSAM made me notice the difference. She'll talk about things we've done together, and it doesn't even ring a bell for me, to the extent that I'll ask, "Are you sure that was me?" She's sure, as she rattles off intricate details of the experience.

I finally did some research and found, among other information, this study:
Here we report data from three healthy, high functioning adults with the reverse pattern: lifelong severely deficient autobiographical memory (SDAM) with otherwise preserved cognitive function. Their self-reported selective inability to vividly recollect personally experienced events from a first-person perspective was corroborated by absence of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and event-related potential (ERP) biomarkers associated with naturalistic and laboratory episodic recollection, as well as by behavioral evidence of impaired episodic retrieval, particularly for visual information. Yet learning and memory were otherwise intact, as long as these tasks could be accomplished by non-episodic processes. Thus these individuals function normally in day-to-day life, even though their past is experienced in the absence of recollection. LINK
It's a fascinating study, even though the idea that I can't mentally travel back and relive things I've experienced is horribly creepy.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:06 am

Wow, thanks Nikki, that's very interesting. I guess there is always a balancing expression, ability, a knowledge. at times I curse my "ability" because either I don't want to remember, or I do remember, and it hurts like hell. Geez, i didn't even swear.

At times, Nikki, it is like a curse, yet for you, it seems that you wish you could have this recall ability. Apart from my childhood recalls, I sometimes wish I didn't have this ability, that the past would just fade into some nebulous past. Then again, when I am looking at my past life with my first wife, no matter how much it hurts, I don't want to give up the ability to recall lifelike experiences of our time together.

Then the recall with my best friend, a female person, but a very platonic relationship, very close to more at times, but never there.

I have to admit that these recalls hurt like hell. Can bring you to tears. But you would not give up this personal hurt for the world. Sometimes I wonder why I have been cursed with this "ability".

So thank you Nikki, I now understand HSAM, and SDAM. And all in all, I don't want to give up this ability to recall my past in such graphic detail. Just on of life's tribulations.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Dimebag » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:02 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Wow, thanks Nikki, that's very interesting. I guess there is always a balancing expression, ability, a knowledge. at times I curse my "ability" because either I don't want to remember, or I do remember, and it hurts like hell. Geez, i didn't even swear.

At times, Nikki, it is like a curse, yet for you, it seems that you wish you could have this recall ability. Apart from my childhood recalls, I sometimes wish I didn't have this ability, that the past would just fade into some nebulous past. Then again, when I am looking at my past life with my first wife, no matter how much it hurts, I don't want to give up the ability to recall lifelike experiences of our time together.

Then the recall with my best friend, a female person, but a very platonic relationship, very close to more at times, but never there.

I have to admit that these recalls hurt like hell. Can bring you to tears. But you would not give up this personal hurt for the world. Sometimes I wonder why I have been cursed with this "ability".

So thank you Nikki, I now understand HSAM, and SDAM. And all in all, I don't want to give up this ability to recall my past in such graphic detail. Just on of life's tribulations.
I find that my recall for memory tends to be related to the level of emotional content associated with that memory. I have certain vivid memories, from my past, making a life changing mistake as an example, which seem to have been indelibly etched into my mind. Not to the point where I can investigate a scene and be able to pick out great detail, but rather, certain parts of the memory, most likely those which caught my attention at the time, or which were the most surreal. And the recall of the memory still brings a small amount of anxiety, as well as other associated feelings of detachment and shock which I felt at the time, almost as a reminder to myself that such a situation should be avoided or bad things will happen.

We have to remember we don't feel these things for no reason, nature has programmed in these functions to ensure our survival, though they may plague us, the more we face them and confront them the less they will bother us, as such feelings which become repressed or unattended to tend to grow until they are the only thing we can hear, even though we might try to ignore them. If we give them their time in the light, allow them to be heard we may realise that's all they wanted, and will then quiet down.

As much as we would like to think it, our emotions are tied very tightly to everything we experience, and in our attempts to detach the emotions from the experiences we are just making them more angry.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Poodle » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:07 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:Hey Dimebag. I have often thought that my ability to visualize things was pretty much limited to very vague and hazy conceptualizations of things. I think I might be an aphantasiac too some extent. Can't know how good the visualization is for the people that can visualize things well. I always assumed it would be like hallucinating the thing.
And that, Steve, may inform our discussions in another thread.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:56 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Wow, thanks Nikki, that's very interesting. I guess there is always a balancing expression, ability, a knowledge. at times I curse my "ability" because either I don't want to remember, or I do remember, and it hurts like hell. Geez, i didn't even swear.

At times, Nikki, it is like a curse, yet for you, it seems that you wish you could have this recall ability. Apart from my childhood recalls, I sometimes wish I didn't have this ability, that the past would just fade into some nebulous past. Then again, when I am looking at my past life with my first wife, no matter how much it hurts, I don't want to give up the ability to recall lifelike experiences of our time together.

Then the recall with my best friend, a female person, but a very platonic relationship, very close to more at times, but never there.

I have to admit that these recalls hurt like hell. Can bring you to tears. But you would not give up this personal hurt for the world. Sometimes I wonder why I have been cursed with this "ability".

So thank you Nikki, I now understand HSAM, and SDAM. And all in all, I don't want to give up this ability to recall my past in such graphic detail. Just on of life's tribulations.
In rare instances, SDAM can be advantageous, since it includes an inability to relive trauma; my life has included quite a lot of trauma, unfortunately.

The disadvantages, though, outweigh the advantages, IMO. Our memories help form our identities...our sense of who we are and what our place is in the general scheme of things. Since I can't relive experiences, I have a limited window of time to learn from them before they're gone (except for the semantic knowledge that the experience occurred). And I can't relive positive experiences, which sucks.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:16 am

The trouble with an "Eidetic memory" is the vividness of the memory. Dictionary.com describes it as follows:
the ability to recall images with vividness bordering on actual visual perception; total recall; also called photographic memory. Eidetic memory, to use the clinical term, is the ability to recollect an image so vividly that it appears to be real.
And that is the problem I guess when the memories of personal events are so vivid and realistic. To a point even where you can just about reach out and touch somebody. The mention above of photographic memory is to my way of thinking, incorrect. The big difference is that you feel the actual emotion that came with the original happening. It is not just a matter of being able to describe something you have seen. This "ability" means that you also feel the emotion. For many people, emotions tend to fade over the years and just remain as either pleasant, or not, memories.

With these memories comes the feeling of love, hate, terror, excitement, the whole gamut of emotions. You can certainly describe the scene in minute detail as well. Unfortunately you cannot pick and choose between the nice memories and those you wish you could forget. But I suppose I can put up with the not so good ones, for the ability to re-live some of the most beautiful experiences of my life. Yeah, I would say that there have been more good ones than bad. Cheers

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:28 am

Eidetic memory: Of visual imagery of almost photographic accuracy. /// The emotional element coming forth as well probably "varies" just as does the clarity of the photograph? I looked it up because Wifey had what she called "almost" a photographic memory but just short and she called it eidetic. Just like in the movies: she could read a book by turning one page after another...with good recall. I didn't believe her, and tested it. She passed. No need for a notebook or phone book...all memorized as well as the city by city route we took on vacation 7 years earlier.

Ha,ha...she was kinda emotional..........and couldn't read a map. So, I won.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:29 am

Bobbo, your wife sounds like she has a speed reading ability. And how many people can read a map. I'm sure you can, I certainly can, but perhaps that comes with our history, perhaps in part.

This Eidetic Memory is a very strange ability. It is very hard to describe and I still do not accept the term photographic memory as a description. Mind you, having a photographic memory is a great asset, especially if you are a cop.

But Eidetic is very different, even strange or freakish. But you can virtually relive those moments in time. You can almost touch, certainly feel that emotion of touch without the physical contact. No wonder I'm a crazy bloke.

But perhaps you're lucky with your wife Bobbo, my wife has a terrible memory, or ability of recall, but whilst she admits that, she will still argue black and blue that she remembers something, yet there is no way it happened that way. So my friend, put up with her inability to read maps, and enjoy her ability to remember so much else.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Poodle » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:11 am

Hmmm - different things around, I think. I cannot at will recall any memory I choose. There are things other people are aware of of which I have no memory. But I do have a collection (quite large) of memories going back to early childhood which are vivid. I've checked with other people (including my mother - such as almost scribbling with wax crayon on her ration books - yes, I'm that old). For instance, I can call up - and have checked - a pre-school memory of me sitting on the top of a table with barley-twist legs (the table, not me) with a scarlet blanket wrapped around my shoulders, watching the sunlight creeping down a red-brick wall (so it's early morning) and my mother doing the washing-up in a large stone sink immediately in front of the window. She was wearing a blue floral apron and just about to rush across the room to switch off the radio which was playing Oh My Papa by Eddie Fisher which, in the UK, makes the year early 1954 and a small me aged two and a half. She hated that song.
I have no idea why that one would stick, but it has - and I have a lot more like it. Ask me what happened the next day and I have no idea.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:25 pm

Poodle, I don't believe we can recall any specific memory that we choose. I believe that it is just certain things that we can recall in such vivid detail. Maybe it is to do with memories of events that were important to you. Then again, I don't know why I can recall riding on a baby stroller, down a huge steep hill at Milson's Point in Sydney. My younger cousin was in the stroller behind me, but the recall doesn't induce any fear. My Mother was in control of the stroller (I hope),and I guess that as a youngster I had no fear of a mishap because I had never experienced a mishap. Like riding the roller coaster, no fear because you imagine it is safe. Well, maybe some do. By the way, I was a two year old.

So Poodle, I guess it is a very complex issue. And it very much will depend on the individual. But once I have recalled a certain event, I can them recall it at will. If you are a nostalgic, then it is a great ability. You can conjure up all the nostalgia that you want. But that in turn can bring on depression because you may not have achieved what you had set out to do.

Still, a fascinating subject. But if you don't have that inbuilt ability, you will not experience the wonder and (hopefully) joy of this total recall. But it is up to each of us, individually, just how much of this we try to chase down. Sweet dreams.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:47 pm

Off Topic / Disruptive Camouflage

Phoenix was a soldier. His life depended on him have thousands of stored memory images of Vietnamese weapons, hats and shapes stuck in his head. If Phoenix saw a outline of a NVA hat in a jungle scene for a nanosecond, one of those memories are triggered and Phoenix consciously thinks "That may be an enemy soldier." Steve doesn't have to assess the image over time and think about it, to work out what it is.

That suggests to me that all these memories are there and it doesn't matter if Phoenix can consciously bring up his memory of those different memory images of weapons, hats and shapes. Phoenix only has to consciously get the end bit of information to be effective. I think it is about conscious training to gather recognition skills that become sub conscious. Dad, a RAAF psychiatrist said this was part of military training called "over learning". It's the same thing as IDF artillery soldiers practising the same loading routine over an over again. Eventually there is no conscious thought required and one thing out of place (like a dud) is recognised in nano seconds by the subconscious.

That's why I love disruptive camouflage. Disruptive camouflage does not really fool the conscious brain. It tricks the subconscious memory to ignore memory triggers, by ruining the shape relationship between the camouflaged object in real life and the stored image memories.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:15 am

Phoenix76 wrote:And how many people can read a map. I'm sure you can, I certainly can, but perhaps that comes with our history, perhaps in part.
I have no problems reading maps, but if I'm using the map to get to a particular destination, and the location I'm currently at has nothing to identify it, then the map is useless. I have to continue driving until I find an intersection where both streets have street signs.

OTOH, I habitually chart out my own route if I'm driving to a new place. Google maps tends to provide the most straightforward route, and I've lived here so long that I have an internal map of shortcuts. :mrgreen: I also have a good sense of direction, and a warning bell goes off in my head when Google maps wants to send me in the wrong direction.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:01 am

Yeah Nikki, that is a problem with google maps. It only responds from its database so if that is wrong, its instructions are wrong. This is generally more of a problem in rural areas than cities, but it certainly happens in city areas.

I recall a few years back driving a vehicle that had one of those map gizzmos in it and it was not totally up to date. It would always tell me to turn left at a certain spot on the freeway. Well there was a road there, some 20 foot below where I was driving. I had to go a further half mile up the freeway and take a left turn that finally brought me down to the road where I wanted to go, but without the 20 foot drop.

Where I live is about 300k out of our state capital. I know many people who have become lost because of google maps. They read the roads that are on the master plan, but do not necessarily exist. I found this myself recently using a street directory to find the safest way to take an oversize load some 50k from there to here. I followed roads everywhere, but they ended up in the bloody bush. Other people have covered 150k to go 80k. They get direct by the shortest possible route, but that route could require a 4WD.

Ah, it's all fun.

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Nikki Nyx » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:39 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:Yeah Nikki, that is a problem with google maps. It only responds from its database so if that is wrong, its instructions are wrong. This is generally more of a problem in rural areas than cities, but it certainly happens in city areas.
It happened to me the first time I visited my friend. I needed to navigate to a "Fuller Road," but Google Maps kept sending me in the opposite direction. Turns out, the neighboring city also has a "Fuller Road." Even though I specified the city I wanted, it kept insisting I wanted the other one. :roll:
Phoenix76 wrote:I recall a few years back driving a vehicle that had one of those map gizzmos in it and it was not totally up to date. It would always tell me to turn left at a certain spot on the freeway. Well there was a road there, some 20 foot below where I was driving. I had to go a further half mile up the freeway and take a left turn that finally brought me down to the road where I wanted to go, but without the 20 foot drop.
:lol: It failed to take into account the third dimension.
Phoenix76 wrote:Where I live is about 300k out of our state capital. I know many people who have become lost because of google maps. They read the roads that are on the master plan, but do not necessarily exist. I found this myself recently using a street directory to find the safest way to take an oversize load some 50k from there to here. I followed roads everywhere, but they ended up in the bloody bush. Other people have covered 150k to go 80k. They get direct by the shortest possible route, but that route could require a 4WD.
There's a similar problem in my neck of the woods. In the nearby group of rural towns, some roads are closed in the winter because the town lacks funds to keep them free of snow. They just plow the main roads, but close off the mountain roads (which, for a reason I don't know, we call "goat roads"). Obviously, that's something a maps application wouldn't know. So the shortcut you used in July isn't valid in January.
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Phoenix76 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:38 pm

Yes "Goat Roads" - Navigable only by Mountain Goats. We have some of them also. :heh:

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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Angel » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:10 am

Ask yourself ~ are you looking at the darkness behind your eyelids or are you seeing ~ from your mind's eye or in your mind)?
The mind expands with imagination.
You wouldn't believe how far I can see
for a blind girl. <3
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Re: Blind in the mind

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:31 am

Angel wrote:You wouldn't believe how far I can see for a blind girl.
If you poke your own eyes out, I'll contribute $2 towards the experiment. At least it will stop you spamming your terrible poetry on the forum again.