Original Sin is a lie.

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Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:56 am

I don’t know if this idea has been posted previously. (I'll be honest...I don't feel like scrolling through 17 pages.) If it has, feel free to delete the thread. If not, I think it’s excellent fodder for discussion. I’ve never heard anyone else put forth this conclusion.

The entire concept of original sin is a lie. Based on Genesis, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden because of God’s deliberate swindle. First, he set them up to fail a test they couldn’t possibly pass. Then, using that as a pretense, he ousted them to protect his own position. Hearken unto my evidence, yea verily.

The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” — Genesis 2:15-17 NET

At this point, Adam is completely innocent, with no knowledge of good and evil and, therefore, no basis for the concepts of right and wrong. He is literally amoral in the strictest sense of the word.

Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Is it really true that God said, ‘You must not eat from any tree of the orchard’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit from the trees of the orchard; but concerning the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the orchard God said, ‘You must not eat from it, and you must not touch it, or else you will die.’” The serpent said to the woman, “Surely you will not die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like divine beings who know good and evil.” — Genesis 3:1-5 NET

Like Adam, Eve is also completely innocent. She has no reason to conceal God’s instructions from the serpent. For its part, the serpent tells Eve the truth about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Unlike God, who lied to Adam and Eve.

When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. — Genesis 3:6 NET

Since Eve also had no basis for the concepts of right and wrong, she made her decision to eat of the tree based on selfish reasons, as amoral people tend to do.

Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. — Genesis 3:7 NET

Suddenly, both Adam and Eve possessed the knowledge of good and evil, and knew the difference between right and wrong. This distinction is important.

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God moving about in the orchard at the breezy time of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the orchard. But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” The man replied, “I heard you moving about in the orchard, and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid.” And the Lord God said, “Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” The man said, “The woman whom you gave me, she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it.” So the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman replied, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.” — Genesis 3:8-13 NET

Look how quickly they’ve learned! Adam blames Eve for giving him the fruit, and Eve blames the serpent for tricking her. Interestingly, neither one of them blames God for giving them a test they couldn’t pass. Human beings know enough not to expect amoral people to obey rules; wouldn’t a supposedly omniscient deity know that as well? Yet God expected Adam and Eve, with no concept of right and wrong, to understand that obeying him was right and disobeying him was wrong. Or did he?

God had to have known that Adam and Eve had no moral motivation for obeying what, to them, was a senseless rule. Since he’s allegedly omnipotent, he could have surrounded the tree with an unscalable fence and called it a day. Therefore, God set up the entire human race to fail…then blamed us for it by calling his own mistake “original sin.” But wait, there’s more.

And the Lord God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God expelled him from the orchard in Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. — Genesis 3:22-23 NET

As if it wasn’t enough to be blamed for God’s own mistake, he and his fellow deities—note the pronoun “us”—then acted out of fear and banished Adam and Eve before they could eat from the tree of life and complete the transformation into deities themselves. You see, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was only half the process.

This is why most Christian sects frown upon reading the Bible. Because it makes atheists. Once you see the manipulation written for all to see in black and white, why would you consider such a being worthy of worship? (That’s even before you read the plethora of other nastiness God perpetrates.)

So…comments?
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:06 am

Captain Obvious?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yYO-VdCx8




In the Bible, God pulls a lot of stuff like this, setting up no-win scenarios.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:50 am

Could it all be a lie? A made-up story?

EDIT: Irony flag is set.
Last edited by Poodle on Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:50 am

A made-up story, no doubt by men who also ate from the same tree... And now under scrutiny by-god, they will say anything to save their (fore)skins.

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:35 am

Short answer: It's all made-up BS.

Long answer: Original Sin(TM) is to insure that no person thinks they're not in need of salvation. Salvation is the intangible "product" of the churches, with zero production costs and no means of determining efficacy.

"What can we sell?"

"We have nothing!"

"Okay, sell that."

"Brilliant!"
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:06 pm

Actually original sin was invented to cover an obvious flaw in a religion that requires acceptance of a scripture: what about all the people who never got to see the Bible because of distance or because they lived to early?
Original sin gives (stupid) reason why they all go to hell.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:24 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Actually original sin was invented to cover an obvious flaw in a religion that requires acceptance of a scripture: what about all the people who never got to see the Bible because of distance or because they lived to early?
Original sin gives (stupid) reason why they all go to hell.

Actually, the idea is for those who have received the Word. The rationalization is that those who have never heard the Word but have lived a commendable life will still go to Heaven and there things will be explained to them, giving them the chance to accept Christ as their savior.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:28 pm

Nope -
which is why babies not baptized go straight to hell.

To soften the blow, some claim they go to limbo, but the Church has no definite view on the matter.
Be assured, and doubt not, that not only men who have attained the use of their reason, but also little children who have begun to live in their mothers' womb and have there died, or who, having been just born, have passed away from the world without the sacrament of holy baptism, administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, must be punished by the eternal torture of undying fire; for although they have committed no sin by their own will, they have nevertheless drawn with them the condemnation of original sin, by their carnal conception and nativity."
—Bishop St. Fulgentius,[
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:19 pm

Someone once "explained" to me that those who never heard the Word (for any reason) had been precondemned. There, that was easy...
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:21 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Nope -
which is why babies not baptized go straight to hell.

To soften the blow, some claim they go to limbo, but the Church has no definite view on the matter.
Be assured, and doubt not, that not only men who have attained the use of their reason, but also little children who have begun to live in their mothers' womb and have there died, or who, having been just born, have passed away from the world without the sacrament of holy baptism, administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, must be punished by the eternal torture of undying fire; for although they have committed no sin by their own will, they have nevertheless drawn with them the condemnation of original sin, by their carnal conception and nativity."
—Bishop St. Fulgentius,[

But those are Christian babies. The implied threat here is that if you don't do everything right with regard to your child, even when it's not born yet, it will go to Hell. So the Church is involved even before it's born.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:50 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:But those are Christian babies. The implied threat here is that if you don't do everything right with regard to your child, even when it's not born yet, it will go to Hell. So the Church is involved even before it's born.



well, since Jesus died for everyone's sin, it is possible for someone utterly ignorant of the existence of the catholic church to get to heaven, but only if they live their lives as if they were properly educated Christians.
Otherwise, it's pitchforks 24/7.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:02 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:But those are Christian babies. The implied threat here is that if you don't do everything right with regard to your child, even when it's not born yet, it will go to Hell. So the Church is involved even before it's born.



well, since Jesus died for everyone's sin, it is possible for someone utterly ignorant of the existence of the catholic church to get to heaven, but only if they live their lives as if they were properly educated Christians.
Otherwise, it's pitchforks 24/7.

I said that above.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:55 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Captain Obvious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71yYO-VdCx8

In the Bible, God pulls a lot of stuff like this, setting up no-win scenarios.

Great video! But I don't think it is that obvious to the overwhelming majority of people. Most don't consider the intrinsic properties of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the fact that Adam and Eve would have been innocently amoral until they ate from it and, therefore, couldn't be held responsible for their actions.

Yet bazillions of people throughout history have fallen for this scam, even though it's spelled out right there in Genesis. Quite aside from the fact that no religion is factual, this one doesn't even try to have a sensible foundation; its very basis is a transparent lie.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:58 pm

Poodle wrote:Could it all be a lie? A made-up story?

EDIT: Irony flag is set.

LOL. My point is that it's not even a well-written story. The first chapter has a plot hole several light years in diameter. A high school creative writing student could do better.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Short answer: It's all made-up BS.

Long answer: Original Sin(TM) is to insure that no person thinks they're not in need of salvation. Salvation is the intangible "product" of the churches, with zero production costs and no means of determining efficacy.

"What can we sell?"

"We have nothing!"

"Okay, sell that."

"Brilliant!"

Of course it's all made-up BS. But there are dozens of ways the story could have been tightened up to avoid the logical fallacy, even given the logical fallacy of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity. Maybe especially given that.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:09 pm

LunaNik wrote:... My point is that it's not even a well-written story. The first chapter has a plot hole several light years in diameter ...

It isn't and it has. However, given the age of the basic story, I often wonder if it was even vaguely possible for people of that time to come up with a better concept of 'The Beginning'. I have to admit to a fondness for the earlier bits of the OT, in a Listen With Mother kind of way.

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:13 pm

Poodle wrote:
LunaNik wrote:... My point is that it's not even a well-written story. The first chapter has a plot hole several light years in diameter ...

It isn't and it has. However, given the age of the basic story, I often wonder if it was even vaguely possible for people of that time to come up with a better concept of 'The Beginning'. I have to admit to a fondness for the earlier bits of the OT, in a Listen With Mother kind of way.

Some of it is interesting, although the endless begatting gets tedious and the smiting and wholesale murder will put you off your lunch.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:37 pm

If we consider the Flynn Effect, we see a rise of about 2 IQ points/decade.

That means that people at the time when Genesis was written had an average IQ of about -400, which could explain a lot.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:41 pm

LMAO! But they made up for it with centuries-long lifespans...lol.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:04 pm

Every Origin Story has a plot hole...................... even the real one.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Every Origin Story has a plot hole...................... even the real one.

Very true. Still, the current theory is still far more believable than any of the fairy tales.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:58 am

That something came from nothing? Yes.......very believable.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:04 am

LunaNik wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Short answer: It's all made-up BS.

Long answer: Original Sin(TM) is to insure that no person thinks they're not in need of salvation. Salvation is the intangible "product" of the churches, with zero production costs and no means of determining efficacy.

"What can we sell?"

"We have nothing!"

"Okay, sell that."

"Brilliant!"

Of course it's all made-up BS. But there are dozens of ways the story could have been tightened up to avoid the logical fallacy, even given the logical fallacy of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent deity. Maybe especially given that.

But I still wouldn't care.
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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:10 am

At the end of the day, me either. Worshipping isn't really in my wheelhouse. I mean, if there were a complaints department, that would be useful. No one will ever convince me that teeth constitutes "intelligent design."
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Confidencia » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:02 pm

The moment you open your mouth you are going to spout a lie, original, sin; or not makes no difference what you call it. Mental constructs based on verbal definitions have nothing to do with reality irrespective of the narratives they create.

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Gord » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:23 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:...the endless begatting gets tedious and the smiting and wholesale murder will put you off your lunch.

Those are my favourites parts!

Procreate, procreate, procreate, kill, kill, kill. Lunch!

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:00 pm

:laff:
God: "Hey, HG...what's on the schedule today?"

Holy Ghost: "Well, You've got some smiting to do in Smyrna, then You're supervising the raping and pillaging of Midian. After that, Archangel Michael has made a lovely matzo ball soup for lunch."

God: "Spectacular! How about after lunch?"

Holy Ghost: "You're free, unless You'd like to tune in to Your creations being fruitful and multiplying."

God: "Oh, my Me...pencil Me in an afternoon nap, will you?"
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: Original Sin is a lie.

Postby Monster » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:17 pm

“Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like, guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha". It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.'
'Why not?'
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