Sutherland shooting

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:53 am

I guess not. I will fix it in the morning.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Test Dummy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:06 am

Test.
Ayup.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:06 am

Okay, that worked. Good night.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:11 am

Re: gun-free zones:
[url=http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=456550#p456550]long ago in another thread[/url], xouper wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/doctor-fired-back ... 24705.html
Doctor fired back at gunman in hospital attack
Associated Press, July 24, 2014 8:01 PM

DARBY, Pa. (AP) — A psychiatrist who was grazed by gunfire from a patient at a suburban Philadelphia hospital Thursday helped stop the gunman by apparently using his own weapon to shoot and wound him, but not before a caseworker was killed, authorities said.

A patient opened fire after entering the doctor's office at Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital with the caseworker, District Attorney Jack Whelan said. Witnesses reported hearing yelling before the gunshots.

... the psychiatrist, "from all accounts, would have acted in self-defense," Whelan said.

The doctor, who suffered a wound to his head, "faced a situation where his life was in jeopardy," Whelan said. He was expected to be interviewed by detectives late Thursday.

The hospital has a policy barring anyone except on-duty law enforcement officers from carrying a weapon anywhere on its campus, a spokeswoman for the Mercy Health System said.

But Yeadon Police Chief Donald Molineux said that "without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives."

"Without that firearm, this guy (the patient) could have went out in the hallway and just walked down the offices until he ran out of ammunition," the chief said. ...
This is an example of how a so-called "gun free zone" would have been a "defenseless victim zone" had the doctor not been carrying his gun that day.

Shannon Watts, founder of Moms Demand Action, has said that a (civilian) good guy with a gun has never stopped a bad guy shooter in public facilities.

What planet does she live on??
If the doctor had not had his gun, in clear violation of the gun-free zone rules, he would likely be dead.

For those who think such gun-free zones are a good idea, is his death a preferable outcome to you?

Can you look his widow in the eye and say, it's a good thing he wasn't allowed to have a gun to defend himself?

Seriously? Because I can't.


Edited to re-enable the bbcodes.
Last edited by xouper on Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by TJrandom » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:50 am

Imagine? Imagine a US without assault weapons in the hands of civilians... Imagine a US without personal arsenals... Imagine a US that implemented laws to address the ills that inflict it... Imagine a US that worked diligently to limit gun ownership to those in need and/or those who will only use them responsibly...

Lots to imagine there Xouper – as have several countries which have mostly solved their prior gun problems.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:20 pm

Hmm. Moderation status appears to be breaking bbcodes.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Test Dummy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:41 pm

Testing. onetwothree.
Ayup.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:42 pm

Okay, that fixed the problem. Carry on.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Aztexan » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Xouper xays
Can you look his widow in the eye and say, it's a good thing he wasn't allowed to have a gun to defend himself?

Seriously? Because I can't.
But we're supposed to say to the family of the caseworker that was killed that our right to own guns is more important than that person's right to live?

I'm glad that doctor had a gun and I agree he did save lives but the whole "good guy with a gun" argument only works if the only fatality was the bad guy with a gun.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:55 pm

Anybody remember why this thread has me thinking about Hornblower?
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:13 pm

I will not be contributing to this thread any more. My rights to free speech have been curtailed.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:57 pm

Aztexan wrote:
xouper wrote:Can you look his widow in the eye and say, it's a good thing he wasn't allowed to have a gun to defend himself?

Seriously? Because I can't.
But we're supposed to say to the family of the caseworker that was killed that our right to own guns is more important than that person's right to live?
I can do that. I have done that.

I can look the survivors in the eye and tell them that the right to freedom is more important than the right to safety from people who do evil. I have absolutely no moral qualms about taking that position.

Yes, I have done that.

But what I cannot do is tell someone they should not have had a gun to defend themselves. I cannot say, "Sorry, Mrs Victim, but your husband's death was an unfortunate consequence of my right to be safe in the hospital. He should not be allowed to carry a gun in a hospital to prevent his own death."

I'm sorry, but I cannot say that. Such a thing makes my stomach turn. It goes against my deepest moral convictions to let evil people have more rights than the rest of us.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:02 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I will not be contributing to this thread any more. My rights to free speech have been curtailed.
No, they haven't. Everyone's posting privileges have been curtailed because my requests were ignored. I am not the government. I am a forum administrator and I was obliged to respond to complaints.

If anyone thinks I might be angry about my requests being ignored, they would be correct. I do not give a damn about anyone's inconvenience.

This restriction will remain in place until Saturday. If folks can engage in civil discourse by then, I'll remove the restrictions.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:17 pm

xouper wrote:For those who think such gun-free zones are a good idea, is his death a preferable outcome to you?

Can you look his widow in the eye and say, it's a good thing he wasn't allowed to have a gun to defend himself?

Seriously? Because I can't.
Ha, ha.......nice set up. Not exactly....but this is a "variation" on the Prisoner's Dilemma. What is "best" for an individual is NOT BEST for the rest of society AND ON POINT: not in the long term what is best for the widow as well. Point Being: all of the World should be a gun free zone.

A parallel construct: before being a widow....the wifey takes hubbies gun and shoots whoever knocks on the front door. Works out perfectly if the person she shoots is the sniper or gangster. But ..........thats not how society/statistics work even though the exceptions "feel" compelling.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:02 am

I've decided that I'm not going to spend the rest of my vacation doing the censorship thing, and I am not comfortable with interfering with what I consider to be an important topic, and I've seen much worse in other parts of the forum, so I've removed the restrictions.

Good night.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:24 am

Yeah.........I felt bad for YOU Pyrrho. Plus....your action was a bit ambiguous? What was posted that was "so" offensive or "libelous?" Management of people would be fun, it it didn't take time and involve people...............

I'm actually curious as to what words/ideas hit your unacceptable filter.....because i didn't see it. An alternative to general moderating: highlight the unacceptable language, one warning. Highlight the second offense with a small ban. See what gives. This educates the masses. You could become a saint.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:19 am

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:X, what is the point of pedestrian zones?
of non-smoking zones?
of signs asking people to wear a shirt or trousers in a restaurant?
If you have a point to make about gun-free zones, then make it. I am not going to play your guessing games.
come on, Xouper! You probably walk past a non-smoking zone every day, and you never asked yourself what they are for?

Is it because non-smoking zone stop misanthropic smokers from smoking?

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:16 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:X, what is the point of pedestrian zones?
of non-smoking zones?
of signs asking people to wear a shirt or trousers in a restaurant?
If you have a point to make about gun-free zones, then make it. I am not going to play your guessing games.
come on, Xouper! You probably walk past a non-smoking zone every day, and you never asked yourself what they are for?

Is it because non-smoking zone stop misanthropic smokers from smoking?
I know full well what non-smoking zones are for, and all the other zones you mentioned.

If you have a point to make about gun-free zones, then make it. I am not going to play your guessing games.

I clearly stated my argument about the flaw of gun-free zones.

So far, you have offered nothing other than insults or riddles.

If you have a point to make about gun-free zones, then make it. I am not going to play your guessing games.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:13 am

The flaw of gun-free zones is exactly the same as for non-smoking zones.
Do you consider those pointless?`
Do you think the only way to stop a bad guy with a cigarette is a good guy with a cigarette?

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:50 am

ElectricMonk wrote:The flaw of gun-free zones is exactly the same as for non-smoking zones.
Do you consider those pointless?`
Do you think the only way to stop a bad guy with a cigarette is a good guy with a cigarette?
When you have something intelligent to say, let me know.

If you have an actual point to make about gun-free zones, then make it. I am not going to play your guessing games.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by ElectricMonk » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:25 am

I am pointing out that you are unwilling to actually think about the topic of gun-free zones and are instead just regurgitating far-right talking points.
I gave clear analogies that illustrate the issue;
the fact that you can't bring yourself to contemplate the implications is very telling.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:33 am

ElectricMonk wrote:I am pointing out that you are unwilling to actually think about the topic of gun-free zones and are instead just regurgitating far-right talking points.
BS.

I have presented a well thought out argument.

It is a fallacy to try to discredit my argument with name calling.

Accusing me of "regurgitating far-right talking points" is not a valid rebuttal, but is merely name calling. Your pathetic accusation is merely the last resort of someone who has no argument.

ElectricMonk wrote:I gave clear analogies that illustrate the issue;
the fact that you can't bring yourself to contemplate the implications is very telling.
You haven't even stated any implications.

You have said nothing at all that comes even close to actually addressing my argument.

All you have posted is riddles and insults. Pathetic.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:57 am

I go to a gun-free zone regularly. It's a VA hospital.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:03 am

I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:16 am

People think a gun can be used in self-defence. To be precise it can only be used to offer reciprocal violence. You can't parry a blow with it. You can't hide behind it. You can just try to kill the other person first. Meanwhile, lead is flying around your home.

One of the people I served with at my last command woke up when she heard someone moving around in her house. She slipped out of her bedroom and locked the door to keep the baby safe, then she went hunting. The police were impressed. So was the coroner. She didn't need a gun.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:31 am

BTW, she was actually one inch shorter than the minimum height for females to join the Navy. She was also a very angry mommy.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:18 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:People think a gun can be used in self-defence. To be precise it can only be used to offer reciprocal violence. You can't parry a blow with it. You can't hide behind it. You can just try to kill the other person first. Meanwhile, lead is flying around your home.
No one is fooled by your word games.

The legal definition of self defense is: "The protection of one's person or property against some injury attempted by another."

Guns can and have been used successfully for self defense. There's an entire thread full of such examples.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=25360

Trying to inject your own personal definition into the discussion is pointless, especially when we already have a perfectly workable definition that most people understand.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:20 pm

TJrandom wrote:I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.
That's not relevant to the discussion of the kind of gun-free zones we have in the US.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:31 pm

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.
That's not relevant to the discussion of the kind of gun-free zones we have in the US.
Of course it is - it is a perfect example of the great benefits of gun free zones. Safe, far fewer shootings, even fewer deaths...

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:20 pm

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.
That's not relevant to the discussion of the kind of gun-free zones we have in the US.
Of course it is - it is a perfect example of the great benefits of gun free zones. Safe, far fewer shootings, even fewer deaths...
The fundamental difference between Japan's gun free zone and those in the US, is that in the US, it is trivially easy for someone to bring a gun in and do evil. This is because gun free zones have no barrier between them and the gun zones.

That is not the case in your gun free zone, therefore, that is the distinction that makes your example not relevant to the US.

Unless you are claiming that the entire US should be a gun free zone, but that's an different argument, which we've had before and you already know my position on that.

Fact: Most mass shootings in the US happen in a gun-free zone.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:29 pm

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.
That's not relevant to the discussion of the kind of gun-free zones we have in the US.
Of course it is - it is a perfect example of the great benefits of gun free zones. Safe, far fewer shootings, even fewer deaths...
The fundamental difference between Japan's gun free zone and those in the US, is that in the US, it is trivially easy for someone to bring a gun in and do evil. This is because gun free zones have no barrier between them and the gun zones.

That is not the case in your gun free zone, therefore, that is the distinction that makes your example not relevant to the US.

Unless you are claiming that the entire US should be a gun free zone, but that's an different argument, which we've had before and you already know my position on that.

Fact: Most mass shootings in the US happen in a gun-free zone.
Lol... sort of puts your Chicago meme in perspective and shows how ridiculous it is.

Of course the US should be a gun free zone - at least for assault weapons, and eventually for more if it is found to be needed to stop the killings.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:34 pm

TJrandom wrote:Lol... sort of puts your Chicago meme in perspective and shows how ridiculous it is.
What "meme" are you referring to? Please be more specific.

TJrandom wrote:Of course the US should be a gun free zone - at least for assault weapons, and eventually for more if it is found to be needed to stop the killings.
We have already had that conversation. I do not agree with your opinion.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:12 pm

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Lol... sort of puts your Chicago meme in perspective and shows how ridiculous it is.
What "meme" are you referring to? Please be more specific.

TJrandom wrote:Of course the US should be a gun free zone - at least for assault weapons, and eventually for more if it is found to be needed to stop the killings.
We have already had that conversation. I do not agree with your opinion.
The meme that gun laws don`t work in Chicago. But yet in the following quote, you acknowledge that the reason gun free zones don`t work, and by extension – that strict Chicago laws don`t work, is because guns can easily be brought in from outside.
The fundamental difference between Japan's gun free zone and those in the US, is that in the US, it is trivially easy for someone to bring a gun in and do evil. This is because gun free zones have no barrier between them and the gun zones.
And while you can disagree all you want – it is the perfect solution to a rather nasty problem that the NRA and gun lobby has foisted upon the US.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:People think a gun can be used in self-defence.
I tried to find comparison statistics between the FBI's USA data and Australia for self defence with a firearm against an intended crime. I couldn't find one example from Australia other than normal armed police.

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:00 am

Guns CAN BE used in self defense and save lives. Its the Pro in the list of Pros and Cons that need to be evaluated and understood. Add them up: lives saved by guns, lives lost to guns.

then outlaw them as inherently dangerous.....and causing a net loss of life and safety......... Statistics/Truth is like that....not pure on either side.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:01 am

TJrandom wrote:I live in a gun free zone - quite happily.
As Gawdzilla rightly pointed out there are many gun free zones or controlled gun zones that defy the constitution in the USA. State laws concerning Courthouses are a great example.

Xouper should start a campaign on another forum, to force courts to accept concealed weapons in courts so citizens can protect themselves in case a court officer "goes postal".
:D

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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:21 am

I saw a guy removed from a hospital once for having a gun.

Well, he was shouting that he was going to shoot his wife.

She was in labor with some other guy's kid.

But still, it was an outrageous violation of his rights.
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:22 am

I had not thought about gun bans in courtrooms. did the google. Looks like basically "all" Federal Properties outlaw guns.....maybe not military bases????

Easy to find the laws prohibiting guns in courtrooms but a bit more google shows it goes both ways. "Evidently" the Supremes have not taken up this song.

this is what crazy looks like.

https://www.google.com/search?q=supreme ... 8&oe=utf-8
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:20 am

xouper wrote:The fundamental difference between Japan's gun free zone and those in the US, is that in the US, it is trivially easy for someone to bring a gun in and do evil. This is because gun free zones have no barrier between them and the gun zones.
TJrandom wrote:Lol... sort of puts your Chicago meme in perspective and shows how ridiculous it is.
xouper wrote:What "meme" are you referring to? Please be more specific.
TJrandom wrote:The meme that gun laws don`t work in Chicago.
It's a well known fact  that gun laws don't work in Chicago to reduce the gun murder rate.

Whether it's the gun laws in Chicago or a gun free zone (for example, in a hospital), they both have the same flaw. They do nothing to keep illegal guns out of those areas. All they accomplish is to make defenseless victims out of law abiding citizens.

Where is your claimed "ridiculousness"?

TJrandom wrote:Of course the US should be a gun free zone - at least for assault weapons, and eventually for more if it is found to be needed to stop the killings.
xouper wrote:We have already had that conversation. I do not agree with your opinion.
TJrandom wrote:And while you can disagree all you want – it is the perfect solution to a rather nasty problem that the NRA and gun lobby has foisted upon the US.
That is factually incorrect on two counts:

1. Contrary to your assertion, this so-called "nasty problem" was not foisted on us by the NRA or the gun lobby. We have had the right to own and carry guns since before the US was even founded.

2. Contrary to your assertion, it is not a perfect solution. Your solution infringes the rights of millions of law abiding citizens to have a gun for self defense or for any other lawful use.

We have had this conversation before. It does not seem likely you and I will ever agree on this issue.

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xouper
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Re: Sutherland shooting

Post by xouper » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I saw a guy removed from a hospital once for having a gun.

Well, he was shouting that he was going to shoot his wife.

She was in labor with some other guy's kid.

But still, it was an outrageous violation of his rights.
Except that no one has the right to use a gun to commit murder.

Even if the hospital was not a gun free zone, he could have been removed and charged with attempted murder.

Given the facts you stated, there was no violation of his rights.