How Guns could be outlawed in USA

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:32 am

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:48 am

3% just doesn't "sound" credible to me. I wonder if they really mean people with more than one gun or something like that? Plus.... its a thing I can see people lying about.

Still............its probably a minority of people, and thats a good thing except its part of the problem: MOST PEOPLE don't support gun rights but don't care that much about it. The active gun nut crowd however is totally bonkers on the issue and are a political force of consequence.

It will take larger more horribles........like Hurricanes........... to get enough political power for the MAJORITY to have their rights supported by the Supremes. I don't see politicians doing it at all.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:49 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Phoenix76 wrote:Bobbo, I was sorely tempted to have a go at you and your post, but commonsense prevailed and I decided you are just not worth the effort.
I so doubt that. What makes you so emotional and threatened with other people having different opinions?
That question assumes facts not in evidence. Shame on you. It's like asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

The problem is not differing opinions, but rather it is your incessant personal attacks that ruin the conversation and make it not worth paying any attention to your blatherings.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:22 am

X=Derp.

TRY to be engaged and substantive.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Phoenix76 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:06 am

Rack off Bobbo, you are bloody boring.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:09 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X=Derp.

TRY to be engaged and substantive.
So if I treat you the same way you treat others on this forum, that would be OK with you?

Let me give it try:

Bobbo, don't be so stupid.

I could get used to saying things like that.

What do you think, booboo? Should I be like you?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:49 am

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X=Derp.

TRY to be engaged and substantive.
So if I treat you the same way you treat others on this forum, that would be OK with you?

Let me give it try:

Bobbo, don't be so stupid.

I could get used to saying things like that.

What do you think, booboo? Should I be like you?
As I've said 15 times: be substantive. something you habitually fail to do.

Stop whining and tell me why I'm stupid. What is it I don't know????? (Specifically...... not just that I failed to understand what you meant!===>HAH!!!) Just like I do FOR you, and you blithely don't understand the pearls put at your snout.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:06 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X=Derp.

TRY to be engaged and substantive.
So if I treat you the same way you treat others on this forum, that would be OK with you?

Let me give it try:

Bobbo, don't be so stupid.

I could get used to saying things like that.

What do you think, booboo? Should I be like you?
As I've said 15 times: be substantive. something you habitually fail to do.

Stop whining and tell me why I'm stupid. What is it I don't know????? (Specifically...... not just that I failed to understand what you meant!===>HAH!!!) Just like I do FOR you, and you blithely don't understand the pearls put at your snout.
Hey look the pot is calling the kettle black. Again.

Get some new material. Some substantive  material.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:09 pm

X==you simply can't follow an argument. By design or by limitation.

OK..........I've had enough. Until you engage the argument presented rather than just repeat your own personal desires, you have made your position clear and there is no reason to discuss these issues further.

Now.......I very much do not like ignoring people.......so.......don't respond to me anymore. I'm just not up to what you mean to say.

Mmmmmmmm Kay?

.................................and to be fair, I'll try not to engage you.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:22 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:X==you simply can't follow an argument. By design or by limitation.

OK..........I've had enough. Until you engage the argument presented rather than just repeat your own personal desires, . . .
Hey look the pot is calling the kettle black. Again.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:. . . you have made your position clear and there is no reason to discuss these issues further.
I have expressed my opinions and you have expressed your opinions. That's good enough for me.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.................................and to be fair, I'll try not to engage you.
I'm not trying to shut you up on the issues. Just stop making personal insults. Is that too much to ask?

I don't mind that you sometimes have opposing opinions.

I don't mind when you challenge my arguments.

But please leave the insults out of it, mmkay??

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by JO 753 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:21 pm

This iznt Personal Attack Jeopardy, bobbo.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:53 pm

Image


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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:21 am

Turns out, I'm right again. Its 3% of people own HALF the guns in America. That makes very good sense.

Common sense: anyone that hoards guns and goes up to a Hotel room to fire on a crowd of people DOES HAVE mental issues.

Gob Smacking stupid, and consistent, that 95% of bobbleheads say "There is no explanation for what happened.....he's old, rich, no mental health problems..............." I did hear ONCE a commentator say the same thing slightly modified with ".....no HISTORY of mental health problems........" a totally different statement.

USA and Guns. A sad case study on how a society can be tragically flawed. My only curiosity: will we work out the OBVIOUS solution to Gun Violence in America before we are killed by AGW.........or will both get us???
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:34 am

If you are poor, you can be insane.
If you are rich, you can only be excentric.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:40 am

ElectricMonk wrote:If you are poor, you can be insane.
If you are rich, you can only be excentric.
You can be excentric and own a gun.......and even be Presnedent.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:55 am

And, apparently, Florida Man...
.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:11 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:And, apparently, Florida Man...
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:43 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And, apparently, Florida Man...
https://youtu.be/n78mlvPXLp8
When people use things illegally, they should be charged with a crime, as that fellow was.

What's your point?

Are you arguing that because some people sometimes use things illegally, those things should be taken away from everyone?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:31 pm

xouper wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And, apparently, Florida Man...
https://youtu.be/n78mlvPXLp8
When people use things illegally, they should be charged with a crime, as that fellow was.

What's your point?

Are you arguing that because some people sometimes use things illegally, those things should be taken away from everyone?
i have never used nukes illegally. Neither has anyone I know.
They all should have free access to WMDs.

This is your argument, Xouper, in a nutshell.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:41 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:And, apparently, Florida Man...
https://youtu.be/n78mlvPXLp8
When people use things illegally, they should be charged with a crime, as that fellow was.

What's your point?

Are you arguing that because some people sometimes use things illegally, those things should be taken away from everyone?
i have never used nukes illegally. Neither has anyone I know.
They all should have free access to WMDs.

This is your argument, Xouper, in a nutshell.
No, that is not my argument.

You made that erroneous inference all on your own.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Nope.

According to you, just because certain weapons are used illegally doesn't mean they should be taken away from everyone.
Why doesn't this apply to, say, explosives?
People might use them legally on their own land.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:14 pm

If we could get gun violence down to, for instance, the level of violent crimes committed with automobile or bassoons private ownership would not be the problem it is today.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:21 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:According to you, just because certain weapons are used illegally doesn't mean they should be taken away from everyone.
The context of the conversation was weapons that are protected by the Second Amendment.

At no time did I intend to imply that my argument included things that are not so protected, such as nuclear weapons.

I assumed that went without saying, but apparently not.

Perhaps this clarification will help: If a thing is generally legal to own, then it is not reasonable to take that thing away from everyone just to prevent a few people from using that thing illegally.

Is that better? Or do you need further clarification of what I am trying to say here?

If there is any ambiguity in how someone says something, the honorable thing to do is ask for clarification, and not put words in their mouth they did not intend to say. Is that too much to ask?

ElectricMonk wrote:Why doesn't this apply to, say, explosives?
People might use them legally on their own land.
Certain explosives are legal for private citizens to own and use under certain limited conditions. Nuclear weapons generally are not.

That is the flaw in your argument.

Example: Private ownership of hand grenades is prohibited under 26 U.S.C. § 5801. So I am not talking about hand grenades here, only those firearms that are protected by the Second Amendment. Arguing about other kinds of weapons is a red herring.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:43 pm

But the second amendment says nothing about banning machine guns or artillery. If you base your claim of legality of guns on this, there is no limit to the kind of firearm permitted.
In fact, we should argue that it explicitly permits weapons a militia would usually have access to.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:45 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:If we could get gun violence down to, for instance, the level of violent crimes committed with automobile or bassoons private ownership would not be the problem it is today.
The number of deaths caused by drunk drivers each year is similar to gun homicides.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:46 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:But the second amendment says nothing about banning machine guns or artillery. If you base your claim of legality of guns on this, there is no limit to the kind of firearm permitted.
In fact, we should argue that it explicitly permits weapons a militia would usually have access to.
...would have access to in the time of the writing, of course. No cannons, no warships, etc., just smooth bores and rifled muskets.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:30 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:But the second amendment says nothing about banning machine guns or artillery. If you base your claim of legality of guns on this, there is no limit to the kind of firearm permitted.
In fact, we should argue that it explicitly permits weapons a militia would usually have access to.
...would have access to in the time of the writing, of course. No cannons, no warships, etc., just smooth bores and rifled muskets.

I disagree.
A militia has to keep up-to-date with warfare technology. Because they are (para-) military units.
The context of the 2nd Amendment is only about war-related use of firearms. It says nothing about use for private protection.

So the literal interpretation is that citizens should have access to basically all kinds of weapons as long as they are part of a well-regulated militia.

But no one today, including Xouper, want this interpretation. So they can't use it to justify whatever they want using it. It is about militias and defence of the country in the absence of a standing army. Not about personal self-defence.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:49 pm

The militia is irrelevant today, so it doesn't matter what kind of weapons they have available.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:59 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:But the second amendment says nothing about banning machine guns or artillery. If you base your claim of legality of guns on this, there is no limit to the kind of firearm permitted.
In fact, we should argue that it explicitly permits weapons a militia would usually have access to.
...would have access to in the time of the writing, of course. No cannons, no warships, etc., just smooth bores and rifled muskets.
That's like arguing that the First Amendment freedom of speech does not apply to the internet or to any kind of video.

Faulty argument.


ElectricMonk wrote:So the literal interpretation is that citizens should have access to basically all kinds of weapons as long as they are part of a well-regulated militia.
Any kind of personal weapon that you can carry on your person and is of the kind that would be in common use in a militia, that should be protected by the Second Amendment.

That would include full auto M4s or 240Bs, for example:

Image

Although, to be honest, the M240 is a bit heavy and doesn't seem all that practical for personal self defense. I've never fired one, so I don't have first hand knowledge.

However, I am also willing to compromise and I do not generally argue for the legalization of fully automatic guns, even though in my ideal world they would be legal.

Is that what you are asking me?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The militia is irrelevant today,
Depends on who you ask.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-m ... ates-today

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:36 pm

xouper wrote:That's like arguing that the First Amendment freedom of speech does not apply to the internet or to any kind of video.
You mean: your constitutional rights have to be evaluated given the new technology? You mean the new technology that provides individuals with a greater kill power with more potential harm to society than the technology that was contemplated by the original intent of the framers? =========>Why yes, that is entirely correct and is rationale No 1 in the OP for how the previous Supremes got it wrong and how a future Supremes can get back to Original Intent with the original ratios of individual fire power and societal harm.
xouper wrote: Faulty argument.
We agree.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:07 pm

xouper wrote:
That's like arguing that the First Amendment freedom of speech does not apply to the internet or to any kind of video.

Faulty argument.
it doesn't, simply because the internet is based on private companies's servers and not run by the government. They can take down whatever they want.
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:So the literal interpretation is that citizens should have access to basically all kinds of weapons as long as they are part of a well-regulated militia.
Any kind of personal weapon that you can carry on your person and is of the kind that would be in common use in a militia, that should be protected by the Second Amendment.



That would include full auto M4s or 240Bs, for example:

Image

Although, to be honest, the M240 is a bit heavy and doesn't seem all that practical for personal self defense. I've never fired one, so I don't have first hand knowledge.
That is the point: the constitution doesn't mention self-defence ONCE.
xouper wrote: However, I am also willing to compromise and I do not generally argue for the legalization of fully automatic guns, even though in my ideal world they would be legal.
Is that what you are asking me?
If that is your position, you cannot use the 2nd Amendment to justify your position.
Current gun laws allow lots of weapons for hunting, sport and self-defence, even if their actual applicability for these uses is often dubious.
But what is even more dubious is to claim that it is the constitution that regulates what weapons people can and can't buy.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:00 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:That's like arguing that the First Amendment freedom of speech does not apply to the internet or to any kind of video. Faulty argument.
it doesn't, simply because the internet is based on private companies's servers and not run by the government. They can take down whatever they want.
Not relevant.

When the Constitution was written, the printing presses were also privately owned, not run by the government. The First Amendment protected those privately owned presses from government censorship.

Likewise with the internet. The point is that the First Amendment prohibits the government from censoring the internet, even though the internet is not ever once mentioned in the Constitution.

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:So the literal interpretation is that citizens should have access to basically all kinds of weapons as long as they are part of a well-regulated militia.
Any kind of personal weapon that you can carry on your person and is of the kind that would be in common use in a militia, that should be protected by the Second Amendment.

That would include full auto M4s or 240Bs, for example:

Although, to be honest, the M240 is a bit heavy and doesn't seem all that practical for personal self defense. I've never fired one, so I don't have first hand knowledge.
That is the point: the constitution doesn't mention self-defence ONCE.
Not relevant.

The Second Amendment doesn't put any restrictions on what a person might want to use his weapons for. The point of the Second Amendment is to put restrictions on the government, not the people.

In any case, many state constitutions (which were written around the same time) do mention self defense. At the time, it pretty much went without saying that people had the right to use guns for self defense. The historical and legal evidence is quite clear on that point.

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:However, I am also willing to compromise and I do not generally argue for the legalization of fully automatic guns, even though in my ideal world they would be legal. Is that what you are asking me?
If that is your position, you cannot use the 2nd Amendment to justify your position.
I don't.

The Constitution is there to protect my rights, not justify them.

Just like free speech, the right to own and carry arms preceded the Bill of Rights. Those rights are not granted by the Constitution, but are merely acknowledged by it. The Second Amendment is merely a restriction on the behavior of the government and is written down so that it has legal binding on the government, not on the people.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:04 pm

I forgot to add:

ElectricMonk wrote:. . . But what is even more dubious is to claim that it is the constitution that regulates what weapons people can and can't buy.
You are of course entitled to whatever form of dubiosity your heart desires.

Fortunately, that has no legal bearing on anything.

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:22 pm

Getting back to the title of this thread, I offer this snarky graphic for your enjoyment:

Image

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:37 am

Laws that are not enforced.......... usually don't work.
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by ElectricMonk » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:42 am

Xouper, when was the last time you got shot by drugs?

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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:18 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Xouper, when was the last time you got shot by drugs?
To resolve the objection implied in your question, change "doing drugs" to "driving drunk".
If we make guns illegal, then no one will get shot anymore.

That's how we stopped everybody from driving drunk.
So now your question should be, when was the last time you were the victim of a drunk driver?

Do you get the point now?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:38 pm

Ha, ha.................15th time: except thats NOT the point. You miss societal benefit.

And here is your response:
Spoiler:
Yeah I know....guns are a social benefit too. A mantra set in concrete, not disturbed by facts.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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xouper
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Re: How Guns could be outlawed in USA

Post by xouper » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Ha, ha.................15th time: except thats NOT the point. You miss societal benefit.

And here is your response:

Yeah I know....guns are a social benefit too. A mantra set in concrete, not disturbed by facts.
I have already posted many facts to support the society benefit of guns.

Actual facts, not concrete.

Your dislike of those facts is not a valid rebuttal of the societal benefit.

I'll repeat some of them here:
  • Fact: Guns are useful for self defense.
  • Fact: In the recent study commissioned by Obama, the CDC reports that the number of defensive uses of a gun is estimated in the hundreds of thousands each year. That number is difficult to estimate because there is no official tracking of that data.
  • Fact: Here's an example of self defense with a gun:
    The Chicago Tribune wrote:
    Uber driver, licensed to carry gun, shoots gunman in Logan Square

    Geoff Ziezulewicz, April 20, 2015

    Uber driver with licensed gun takes down man firing at crowd, prosecutors say.

    Authorities say no charges will be filed against an Uber driver who shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Logan Square over the weekend.

    The driver had a concealed-carry permit and acted in the defense of himself and others, Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn said in court Sunday. . . .