Las Vegas

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pm

xouper wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:. . . Xouper, though, has succombed to the propaganda put out by those who make megabucks selling guns.


For the record, that is an outright lie, and is yet another instance of a pattern of harassment and libel.

Shame on you, Lance.


You are not the only one, Xouper.

Millions of Americans fall for it.

Nothing new about it. Big Tobacco does it. Big Pharma does it. Big Oil does it. If you believe the gun makers do not, you are very, very naive.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:29 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
xouper wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:. . . Xouper, though, has succombed to the propaganda put out by those who make megabucks selling guns.


For the record, that is an outright lie, and is yet another instance of a pattern of harassment and libel.

Shame on you, Lance.


You are not the only one, Xouper.


Again, for the record, I am not doing that.

It is dishonorable to continue to falsely accuse me of doing that, especially after you have been put on notice that your accusation is not true.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Millions of Americans fall for it.

Nothing new about it. Big Tobacco does it. Big Pharma does it. Big Oil does it. If you believe the gun makers do not, you are very, very naive.


Let the record show Lance persists in a pattern of consistent harassment, personal attacks, and libel.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:17 pm

All personal attacks either stop in this discussion or it gets locked. After that if they continue, anyone posting a personal attack will have their posting privileges restricted.

In the event of legal actions brought against this forum because of anything posted here, I'll lock the accused's account and that of the accuser, because I won't have this forum dragged into what would be a very serious legal matter. I've done that before and I'll do it again.

Given the lack of bright-line rules on the nature of libel and slander on Internet forums, I will take the approach of protecting the forum and the organization over the posting privileges of the people involved.

Do not start arguing with me about freedom of speech in this situation. I can't be expected to work it both ways.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:18 pm

As a matter of fact, I'm locking this topic anyway, out of sheer irritation. Grow up.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:31 pm

I am a bit busy at the moment. When I am back online, I will move all posts that contain potentially libelous statements offline.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Pyrrho » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:29 pm

Restored and unlocked. I will not be splitting out posts with comments about other users. Too many.

Do not comment about other users. Stick to the topic. Personal attacks will result in a) the permanent locking of this topic and b) temporary lockout from this section of the forum. Leave your personal opinions about other users out of the discussion.

If that cannot be done, then I'll put this subforum on moderated status and all posts in topics here will be subject to my review and approval.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:38 pm

I am puzzled. I have seen others, on other threads, engaged in the most horrendous ad hom attacks and getting away with it. All I suggested was that Xouper had been convinced by propaganda. That is really just another way of saying someone is wrong. What is so dreadful about that ?

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:34 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I am puzzled. I have seen others, on other threads, engaged in the most horrendous ad hom attacks and getting away with it. All I suggested was that Xouper had been convinced by propaganda. That is really just another way of saying someone is wrong. What is so dreadful about that ?


No it's not the same.

It is within the bounds of civil discourse to express your opinion that my position is wrong.

It is NOT acceptable to make false allegations about my character.

Contrary to your assertion, they are not the same thing.

Fact: My position on guns is not based on propaganda.

You have been told that many times over the years and yet you persist in repeating that same lie.

Please stop.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:50 pm

Hmmm.

Xouper.
Many years ago, I was a high school teacher, teaching science and biology. I set and marked exams. Now and again, I would see two exam papers, written by two people sitting next to each other, in which the same thing was written in answer to many questions. Including silly mistakes. It was very clear that one person had copied the answers from the other. Cheated.

Now in my research on guns on the internet, I have read a number of the arguments presented by the NRA ( and other minions of the gun manufacturing industry.) You have faithfully reproduced those same arguments. I doubt that is coincidence. You may not appreciate what you are doing, of course, but the simple fact is that your arguments are copies of the arguments coming from the gun makers. I am not calling it cheating, since that is the result of literature research. But there is little doubt in my mind that many, if not most, of your arguments had their origin in the public relations departments of the gun manufacturing industries. Just as Big Oil has influenced global warming deniers, it appears that Big Murder has influenced you.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:39 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Now in my research on guns on the internet, I have read a number of the arguments presented by the NRA ( and other minions of the gun manufacturing industry.) You have faithfully reproduced those same arguments. I doubt that is coincidence. You may not appreciate what you are doing, of course, but the simple fact is that your arguments are copies of the arguments coming from the gun makers. I am not calling it cheating, since that is the result of literature research. But there is little doubt in my mind that many, if not most, of your arguments had their origin in the public relations departments of the gun manufacturing industries. Just as Big Oil has influenced global warming deniers, it appears that Big Murder has influenced you.


BS.

You are grossly mistaken in your unfounded interpretation that I have been influenced by propaganda from the gun industry or that I copied from them.

Just because they use arguments similar to what I use, it is not logically valid to infer I must have copied those arguments from them.

You have been told this numerous times, and yet you persist in repeating the same lie about where I got my arguments.

Please stop making those false accusations about my character.

I would suggest a far more likely explanation: Others use similar arguments as I do because the arguments themselves are derived logically from first principles and are logically sound arguments.

Secondly, your attempt to discredit an argument simply on the basis of who made it, is of course this fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem wrote:Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.


If you want to discredit the arguments made by me (or the gun industry), then the proper way to do it is to refute the merits of the argument, but not on the basis of who said it.

Here's an analogy of the shenanigans you seems to be trying to pull here:

Premise: Xouper has a dog.
Premise: Hitler had a dog.
Lance's invalid conclusion: Xouper is a despicable person like Hitler.

Here's the bottom line, Lance:

It is not a valid rebuttal to my arguments to say they are similar to the arguments used by someone else whom you don't like.

Furthermore, it is a false accusation about my character to say I copied my argument from someone else. You have zero evidence for that accusation. A coincidence is not evidence. So please stop making that accusation.
Last edited by xouper on Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:40 pm

Hey Lance: didja read the four posts before your own?

Smell the coffee. I post to YOU, as I do assume you can buy a clue.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:54 pm

TO avoid such influence would require an amazing degree of hermit existence.
Anyway, WHAT THE HELL.

You can deny it. I do not accept your denial. Let's move on.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 pm

There is very little "figuring it out yourself" that goes on in human understanding. Its 99% repeating what we hear/read. Failing to recognize that is 9/10th of being "unthinking"...........even as we argue logic and all the rest. Its not.

btw: very little of logic is logic. Its mostly analogy. Human don't think logically, we think by analogy. Its true: I heard that in college.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:08 pm

What you heard in college is very true, Bobbo.

There are people, known as skeptics, who are able to rise above that nonsense a lot of the time. Refusing to admit being influenced is probably a bad sign.

I know I have been strongly influenced. For example, I am opposed to those who pour scorn on nuclear power. I once agreed with them, until I came across a paper put out by the British Royal Society, which gave a very balanced view on nuclear power, and ended up with a positive conclusion. I was very influenced by that. My view of personal honesty includes admitting to myself what has influenced me.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm

I think I said this outright........that your arguments have swayed me........."factually".........but not my "value system." Problem is..........too much uncertaintly that there are NO STATISTICS for, no trend lines to mindlessly draw into the future.

EG: the centralized nature of large corporate controlled power plants making them targets of nature and terrorists. What is the value then of having a decentralized individually controlled green energy system?

Your turn....................be direct.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:21 pm

There is always risk, Bobbo. The risk of terrorism has to be countered by security systems, and nuclear power plants generally have very stringent security. So far, those systems have been enough.

On the other hand, what could terrorists do ? Create another Chernobyl and kill another 49 people ? Would that small death toll be sufficient ? They have lots of ways of causing more harm than that.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:28 pm

"On the other hand, what could terrorists do ?" //// I've been impressed by how incompetent the worlds terrorists are. I guess that is a lack of familiarity on my part with the terrorist minded recruit pool. But I thought the risk of terrorists was a China Syndrome? ie: not Chernobyl at all.

What'samatter you? Imagination. Its only limited by................ whatever limits it.
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:45 pm

Bobbo

One of the less well understood things about nuclear technology is the simple fact that it is quite difficult to use it to cause destruction. A bomb requires highly refined fissionable materials, and making that requires a hell of a lot of technical sophistication. A chemical bomb contaminated with radioactive materkals is easier, but why bother ? If really does not make the bomb much worse. A nuclear melt down in a power station would require an expert to instigate. The China Syndrome is fiction.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:57 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote: The China Syndrome is fiction.

So, what would happen if the cooling water resevoir was blown up so there was no water at all to cool a Nuke core?
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 pm

Melt down, but not China Syndrome.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby xouper » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:14 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TO avoid such influence would require an amazing degree of hermit existence.


BS.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Anyway, WHAT THE HELL.

You can deny it. I do not accept your denial. Let's move on.


It doesn't matter whether you accept my denial or not, that does not give you license to violate the rules of this forum and continue to make that false accusation about my character.

What you need to do is stop making such false accusations. Such as the following passive/aggressive personal attack:

Lance Kennedy wrote:. . . Refusing to admit being influenced is probably a bad sign.


For the record, that does not apply to me, even though from the context it is obvious you intended that as a backhanded reference to no one in this thread besides me.

That's like asking you to admit that you've stopped beating your wife.

Your personal attack assumes a false premise and thus is the fallacy of the loaded question.

Your false accusation that I have "succombed [sic] to the propaganda put out by those who make megabucks selling guns" is a clear attempt to smear my reputation here. You have been warned to stop doing that, and yet not only have you failed to retract your false accusation, you keep doing it. Are you really willing to risk having your account locked for that?

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:27 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown

China Syndrome...............ok............I agree. More myth and image than fact although the wiki doesn't actually explain the "real" risk of a steam explosion and release of radioactivity. Still not a good thing?
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Re: Las Vegas

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:06 am

Bobbo

We already know what meltdown, and associated explosives do, since Chernobyl.
Definitely not a good thing. But there are worse things, like Banqiao.

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Re: Las Vegas

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:16 am

We do? Oh.....ok. Glad thats been nailed down.
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