American guns on dark web.

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American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:04 pm

Reference: New Scientist, 29 July 2017, page 12

And I quote :

"Lax gun laws in the US are undermining stricter laws elsewhere."

The dark web is a source for guns in places where they are restricted, such as Europe. Criminals, though, can buy them on the dark web. More than half of those guns are sourced in the USA,

It appears that the USA, with its disgustingly lax gun laws, and it's even more disgustingly high murder rate, is exporting firearms crime to places with sane gun laws, where security from irresponsible gun use should be taken for granted.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm actually surprised there isn't MORE gun violence here in GOUSA than there is. .......Like the Bundy Ranch stand-off actually becoming violent. There hasn't been a fully engaged militia vs militarized police stand-off as far as I know.

Why not? Certainly been enough time and enough issues.

Its more than "lax gun laws.".........Its our POLICY to sell as many guns/weapons to as many ..........(other people?) ..... as possible. We don't want to be subplanted by France or Israel........or everyone else on Earth that would take that money.

............"Silly Hoomans."===>just doesn't quite cover the subject.

................................. Is there a news coverage black out under National Security that I'm not aware of?.........Maybe the Dark Net could tell us??
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:07 am

I do get your point, Bobbo. But despite my cynicism, I doubt that it is American government policy (despite their general corruption and insanity) to sell guns to criminals in Europe. But that is what is happening.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:52 am

Has anyone checked the LDS websites? IIRC correctly, they used to sell guns like used lawnmowers a while ago. :lol:
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:54 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Reference: New Scientist, 29 July 2017, page 12

And I quote :

"Lax gun laws in the US are undermining stricter laws elsewhere."

The dark web is a source for guns in places where they are restricted, such as Europe. Criminals, though, can buy them on the dark web. More than half of those guns are sourced in the USA,

It appears that the USA, with its disgustingly lax gun laws, and it's even more disgustingly high murder rate, is exporting firearms crime to places with sane gun laws, where security from irresponsible gun use should be taken for granted.


Is this the article you cited?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2141260-how-the-dark-webs-gunrunners-covertly-ship-us-weapons-to-europe/

I agree that gun sales from the US to other countries that are in violation of the law should be prosecuted.

If the problem is with the "dark web" as the article seems to be saying, then my preferred solution is to fix that rather than further restricting gun sales to Americans.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:45 am

xouper wrote:....If the problem is with the "dark web" as the article seems to be saying, then my preferred solution is to fix that rather than further restricting gun sales to Americans.

Ummmm.....just what restrictions are there?.............at all?????
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:30 am

If not the dark web, there would be other ways to move the guns.
It's not like gunrunners waited for the rise of the internet to start their business.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:43 am

ElectricMonk wrote:If not the dark web, there would be other ways to move the guns.
It's not like gunrunners waited for the rise of the internet to start their business.


Good point.

Allow me to revise my previous comment.

Find and punish the bad guys who move guns illegally. No need to punish the law abiding gun owners or otherwise infringe their civil liberties.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:54 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:....If the problem is with the "dark web" as the article seems to be saying, then my preferred solution is to fix that rather than further restricting gun sales to Americans.

Ummmm.....just what restrictions are there?.............at all?????


I could write a whole book enumerating the restrictions that are currently in place in the US, both federally and state level restrictions.

Would you like me to start with California, for example?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_California

Here's a huge example: Regarding conceal carry of handguns, California has what is called a "may issue" law (as opposed to "shall issue"), meaning you must convince the state you should be given permission to carry. In practice, the state of California routinely denies permission for applicants who want to carry for reasons of self defense, saying that is not a good enough reason. California's law is currently being challenged in court as unconstitutional.

Compare that to certain other states that do not require law abiding citizens to get government permission to carry concealed. Vermont, for example.

Does that answer your question?

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:05 am

Xouper

Laws mean absolutely nothing if they cannot be policed. Because guns are widely available, and small enough to be hidden, having state laws restricting them is going to do nothing. The nasty bastard simply crosses the state line, buys all the guns and ammo he wants and returns with guns hidden. The only state that is effectively able to restrict guns is Hawaii, because of its isolation. It has strong gun laws, and it has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership in the USA.. By no coincidence, it has one of the lowest levels of gun crime in the USA.

If Americans wanted a more secure society, there would need to be strong gun laws at federal level, and with strong nation wide enforcement. Then the homicide rate would drop, dramatically.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Xouper

Laws mean absolutely nothing if they cannot be policed. Because guns are widely available, and small enough to be hidden, having state laws restricting them is going to do nothing. The nasty bastard simply crosses the state line, buys all the guns and ammo he wants and returns with guns hidden. The only state that is effectively able to restrict guns is Hawaii, because of its isolation. It has strong gun laws, and it has one of the lowest rates of gun ownership in the USA.. By no coincidence, it has one of the lowest levels of gun crime in the USA.

If Americans wanted a more secure society, there would need to be strong gun laws at federal level, and with strong nation wide enforcement. Then the homicide rate would drop, dramatically.


You are of course entitled to your opinion.

As you know, I have a differing opinion.

Reasonable people can disagree on these matters.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:04 am

Opinion is one thing, Xouper. Data rises above opinion. Data shows that the USA, which is the only western nation with lax gun laws, has the highest per capita gun crimes and the highest per capita gun murders and suicides.

More data.
The western nation with the tightest gun laws is Japan. It has the lowest rate of gun crime and gun murders.
The second most lax western nation in terms of gun laws after the USA, is Finland. Guess what ? It also has the second highest rate of gun crime and gun murders.

In fact, if you take the 25 odd western nations and their gun murder rate versus gun ownership (which I have done, since that data is freely available on the internet), you get a very clear cut correlation between gun ownership and gun murders.

Harvard University has done the relationship between gun ownership and gun murders across the 50 American states. Guess what ? A very clear cut positive correlation.

More guns means more gun murders. It is just that simple.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Opinion is one thkng, Xouper. Data rises above opinion.


Yes of course. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was commenting on your subjective opinions about the data.

However, the data can be misused or misinterpreted, etc, so one must be mindful of that.

Secondly, what the data mean and what to do about the data is indeed a matter of subjective opinion.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Data shows that the USA, which is the only western nation with lax gun laws, has the highest per capita gun crimes and the highest per capita gun murders and suicides.


That's simply not true.

We have been over this point many times.

Secondly, even if it were true, so what. The question what should be done about it is matter of opinion.

Thirdly, it has not been shown that rate of gun ownership is the cause of the rate of gun crime. We have had that argument before. gun ownership has been steadily rising and gun crime has been steadily decreasing, the very opposite of what should happen if there was a causal link.

We have been over all this before Lance. Many times. It is a waste of our time to rehash this yet again. You will say the same things you've said before and I will say the same things I've said before and nothing will get resolved. So why bother. If you want to talk about something new, like what's in the opening post, then we can do that.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:More guns means more gun murders. It is just that simple.


Wrong.

We have been over this many times. And you are still wrong on that point.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby KevinLevites » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:50 am

If people want guns, they'll get guns.

Anyone with a modicum of mechanical talent can make a gun. 3D printers are used to make guns from scratch. A British Sten gun can be made in any machine shop with about $50.00 worth of common, unregulated raw materials.

I wish I had a constructive suggestion to offer, but I don't.

Maybe the answer lies in some form of well-managed socialized medicine that treats crazy people instead of putting them unsupported on the streets.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:21 am

Xouper

The idea of gun ownership rising as gun crime falls is utterly misleading. Harvard University did the work and found that the number of guns per owner was increasing, but the percentage of Americans owning guns was falling. So total guns goes up, but so WHAT? A murderer only needs one gun to kill someone. Those sick people tend to own more than one gun, sometimes up to several hundred. But the number of gun OWNERS is falling. And gun crimes depend ln the number of people with guns.

This is the sickness of the gun nutter. When Obama was suggesting tighter gun control, gun sales soared. But almost every extra gun sale was to someone who already owned guns. The American pathology. Insanity. Why would anyone want to own 100 guns ? But some people do. An example of mental illness.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:31 am

Yes, a highly motivated individual can get his/her hands on a firearm.
But the rarer weapons are in a society, the more costly and risky it is to obtain a weapon, which makes it more likely that people will find other, less lethal ways, to deal with their issues.
Making it difficult for everyone not in law enforcement to get a weapon is beneficial for a society that has sufficient police presence and oversight.
Especially for organized crime, it makes a tremendous difference if the cost of a weapon is on the order of $10, $100, $1000 or even $10.000. It completely changes the approach to violence, as can be observed by the difference in crime-related assaults in the Americas and in Europe or most of Asia.

The argument that if you can't prevent every bad person from having a gun, you might as well not try to stop any is childish nonsense.
Strict background checks, proofs of proficiency and safe storage location would cause many law-abiding citizens to refrain from buying guns - which shows that they didn't want them that much in the first place.
Last edited by ElectricMonk on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:41 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Xouper

The idea of gun ownership rising as gun crime falls is utterly misleading. Harvard University did the work and found that the number of guns per owner was increasing, but the percentage of Americans owning guns was falling. So total guns goes up, but so WHAT? A murderer only needs one gun to kill someone. Those sick people tend to own more than one gun, sometimes up to several hundred. But the number of gun OWNERS is falling. And gun crimes depend ln the number of people with guns.

This is the sickness of the gun nutter. When Obama was suggesting tighter gun control, gun sales soared. But almost every extra gun sale was to someone who already owned guns. The American pathology. Insanity. Why would anyone want to own 100 guns ? But some people do. An example of mental illness.


I have repeatedly refuted your assertions in previous threads. Your facts are incorrect. Your conclusions are incorrect. And I do not agree with your opinions about what should be done about any of it.

Now, do you want to keep playing that same old borken record, or do you want to move on to something new?

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:46 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Yes, a highly motivated individual can get his/her hands on a firearm.
But the rarer weapons are in a society, the more costly and risky it is to obtain a weapon, which makes it more likely that people will find other, less lethal ways, to deal with their issues.
Making it difficult for everyone not in law enforcement to get a weapon is beneficial for a society that has sufficient police presence and oversight.
Especially for organized crime, it makes a tremendous difference if the cost of a weapon is on the order of $10, $100, $1000 or even $10.000. It completely changes the approach to violence, as can be observed by the difference in crime-related assaults in the Americas and in Europe or most of Asia.


All of that is irrelevant to the right of the (American) people to keep and bear arms.


ElectricMonk wrote:The argument that if you can't prevent every bad person from having a gun, you might as well not try to stop any is childish nonsense.


Since I have not made that argument, I guess it's safe to assume you were not referring to me. :D

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:49 am

xouper wrote:All of that is irrelevant to the right of the (American) people to keep and bear arms.


no, it isn't.
The constitution can be changed, as it has in the past.
If the gun culture in the US changes, so will the gun laws .
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:11 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
xouper wrote:All of that is irrelevant to the right of the (American) people to keep and bear arms.


no, it isn't.


As a voter, it's irrelevant to me. :D

By that I mean, those arguments are insufficient to persuade me to change my core beliefs.


ElectricMonk wrote:The constitution can be changed, as it has in the past.
If the gun culture in the US changes, so will the gun laws .


The entire Constitution can be thrown out if that's what enough voters want.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:39 pm

xouper wrote: Compare that to certain other states that do not require law abiding citizens to get government permission to carry concealed. Vermont, for example.

Does that answer your question?

Yes.......and right in line with my thought: no restriction on owning a gun AT ALL...........just a restriction on whether you can carry it concealed from the public. A close but not the same issue.

Yes, I'm quibbling in the context of Large Question.........but not at all at the detailed level. I do have a few examples in mind.

Let's take convicted felons or those under suicide watch and assume they aren't allow to have guns. Are those "restrictions" in your mind?.............or as I might dissembled and say rather they are qualifications not restrictions?

Or not. If you think your freedom to own a gun is being restricted because you can't carry it concealed......................
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:51 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:I do get your point, Bobbo. But despite my cynicism, I doubt that it is American government policy (despite their general corruption and insanity) to sell guns to criminals in Europe. But that is what is happening.

Actually, I wasn't thinking the private sales are made indirectly by the USAGubment, but rather than the Gubment sales of arms all over the world just sets a tone in the culture making the independent civilian gun culture all that more entrenched. USA uses guns to solve international problems.......why shouldn't civilians in daily life?

..........but as you made a closer association, I could change my mind. I often read we (USA Gubment) won't supply arms to this and that factions for fear they will be used against allied gubments. So.... who will ultimately get weapons distributed by the USA is reviewed and when such sales are made, the risk or leakage is deemed justified or warranted?

I am reminded of that Clint Eastwood movie where he uses some kind of military cannon to shoot open the safe at a bank. ............. for some reasons, buying ground to air stingers seems to be a popular thing for the underworld types to have the capability of doing........but not so much of that in real life. I keep wondering if such themes will "entrap" the criminal class thereby excusing greater invasion of all our civil rights. Ironic no?===>guns being the cause of our loss of rights rather than their protector===which has always been a crock.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:14 pm

xouper wrote:

I have repeatedly refuted your assertions in previous threads. Your facts are incorrect. Your conclusions are incorrect. And I do not agree with your opinions about what should be done about any of it.

Now, do you want to keep playing that same old borken record, or do you want to move on to something new?


The existence of the Harvard study is fact. You may choose to accuse respectable Harvard University researchers of being liars, but such an accusation is not going to help your case.

The total number of guns in private hands in the USA is estimated to be over 300 million . The total number of gun owners is estimated to be less than 100 million. That means that gun owners on average, own more than 3 guns each. Some gun owners have admitted owning se eral hjndred guns, sk it varies widely. The increase in gun numbers over the past 20 odd years is due to gun owners increasing the number of guns, not more people owning guns. Americans can be grouped into two lots. Gun nutters, and those who are rational and sensible. (There is a smaller, third group which is gun owners who have a legitimate use for them. The nutters are those who own guns for the sick sense of power it gives them.)

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:39 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
xouper wrote:I have repeatedly refuted your assertions in previous threads. Your facts are incorrect. Your conclusions are incorrect. And I do not agree with your opinions about what should be done about any of it.

Now, do you want to keep playing that same old borken record, or do you want to move on to something new?


The existence of the Harvard study is fact.


Yes, I agree that particular Harvard study exists. I did not dispute that. However, the so-called "facts" in the Harvard study have been debunked by other credible studies, as I have already shown in previous posts.


Lance Kennedy wrote:The total number of guns in private hands in the USA is estimated to be over 300 million . The total number of gun owners is estimated to be less than 100 million.


That second number is in dispute. It is not an established fact, as I have already shown repeatedly in previous posts.


Lance Kennedy wrote:That means that gun owners on average, own more than 3 guns each. Some gun owners have admitted owning se eral hjndred guns, sk it varies widely. The increase in gun numbers over the past 20 odd years is due to gun owners increasing the number of guns, not more people owning guns.


That is factually incorrect.

As I have shown repeatedly in previous posts, the number of new owners has been increasing. The Harvard study got that detail wrong, according to other studies.


Lance Kennedy wrote: Americans can be grouped into two lots. Gun nutters, and those who are rational and sensible. (There is a smaller, third group which is gun owners who have a legitimate use for them. The nutters are those who own guns for the sick sense of power it gives them.)


That is your personal opinion, not a fact. And it's not relevant to the topic of this thread.


xouper wrote:I have repeatedly refuted your assertions in previous threads. Your facts are incorrect. Your conclusions are incorrect. And I do not agree with your opinions about what should be done about any of it.

Now, do you want to keep playing that same old borken record, or do you want to move on to something new?


Let the record show you have chosen to play the same old broken record. You have not said anything that I have already debunked a long time ago.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote: Compare that to certain other states that do not require law abiding citizens to get government permission to carry concealed. Vermont, for example.

Does that answer your question?

Yes.......and right in line with my thought: no restriction on owning a gun AT ALL...........just a restriction on whether you can carry it concealed from the public. A close but not the same issue.

Yes, I'm quibbling in the context of Large Question.........but not at all at the detailed level. I do have a few examples in mind.

Let's take convicted felons or those under suicide watch and assume they aren't allow to have guns. Are those "restrictions" in your mind?.............or as I might dissembled and say rather they are qualifications not restrictions?

Or not. If you think your freedom to own a gun is being restricted because you can't carry it concealed......................


The Second Amendment is explicit that the right to carry shall not be infringed.

Fortunately for me, I am not in California. But those people's rights are being infringed. I did indeed given an example of restrictions, as you asked.

If you also want restrictions on owning, I can give you examples of those too.

It is a fact that in the US there are currently many infringements of the Second Amendment, especially at the state and local levels.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:57 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The idea of gun ownership rising as gun crime falls is utterly misleading.


You said:

In a previous post, Lance Kennedy wrote:More guns means more gun murders. It is just that simple.


Fact: In the US, the number of guns has been going up.

Fact: In the US, the gun murder rate has been going down.

You said more guns means more gun murders. You said it's just that simple.

Except the two facts I just cited, which you have not disputed, clearly contradict your simple claim.

Now, if you wish to retract that simple claim and replace it with something else, then I am willing to accept that.

But as it stands, the exact claim you made is false.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:37 am

xouper wrote:
Now, if you wish to retract that simple claim and replace it with something else, then I am willing to accept that.

But as it stands, the exact claim you made is false.


The simple fact is that the relationship of guns to murder by guns rate is not simple as in simple and direct BECAUSE there are many other factors that can be used to confuse the issue.

But heres a simple undeniable fact: no guns will result in a zero murder by guns rate. A cold hard fact. After that..... you get spin.

The many factors issue (such as Higher gun ownership in Switzerland yet lower murder by guns rates) can be factored out by looking at the same country before and after guns are taken away. The famous England and Australian examples.

The simple fact is, the gun nuts want their guns and they assume they are safe (enough) from the murder rate that such gun availability causes. In the main, this is often correct. The moose hunter in Idaho has little to fear from the 40 murdered every weekend in Chicago.......but the former does cause the latter.

Guns........are not muskets. Something that some day the Supremes will no longer deny with their activist rulings.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:Now, if you wish to retract that simple claim and replace it with something else, then I am willing to accept that. But as it stands, the exact claim you made is false.


The simple fact is that the relationship of guns to murder by guns rate is not simple as in simple and direct BECAUSE there are many other factors that can be used to confuse the issue.


I agree.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make to Lance, that it is not simply "more guns means more gun murders."


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:But heres a simple undeniable fact: no guns will result in a zero murder by guns rate. A cold hard fact.


I agree.

And if there are no cars, then there will be no deaths caused by drunk drivers.

And if there are no swimming pools, then there will be no children drowning in them.

And if there are no knives, then the number of deaths by knife will drop to zero.

I can play that game all day long. ;)


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The many factors issue (such as Higher gun ownership in Switzerland yet lower murder by guns rates) can be factored out by looking at the same country before and after guns are taken away. The famous England and Australian examples.


Agreed. So let's look at what happened in England:

Image


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The simple fact is, the gun nuts want their guns and they assume they are safe (enough) from the murder rate that such gun availability causes. In the main, this is often correct. The moose hunter in Idaho has little to fear from the 40 murdered every weekend in Chicago.......but the former does cause the latter.


I disagree with your conclusion (in yellow).


bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Guns........are not muskets. Something that some day the Supremes will no longer deny with their activist rulings.


If you want to argue that the Second Amendment does not apply to new technologies such as the AR-15, then you must also argue that the First Amendment does not apply to television, radio, ebooks, computers, or the internet.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:08 am

Yes, the statement that more guns means more gun murders is an over simplification. More accurately, more people with guns means more gun murders.

Your graph of gun murders in the UK is a widely used bull-shit device used by the NRA and the arseholes who make money by selling guns and killing people. What they do not admit is that hand guns kill almost nobody in the UK, making that graph utterly meaningless.

Get more people with guns, and you get more gun murders. There is a very good reason why the USA has five times the per capita murder rate of my country, and why two thirds of those excessively large numbers of murders are done with firearms.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:27 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Yes, the statement that more guns means more gun murders is an over simplification. More accurately, more people with guns means more gun murders.


Even that revision is false.

I have already posted counter-examples to that claim in previous threads.

You will have to revise it again.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Your graph of gun murders in the UK is a widely used bull-shit device used by the NRA and the arseholes who make money by selling guns and killing people. What they do not admit is that hand guns kill almost nobody in the UK, making that graph utterly meaningless.


I notice you do not dispute the numbers in that graph. You merely try to dismiss it on emotional grounds. Nice try, but no cigar.

The claim was that gun murders will go down after guns are banned. The data, as shown in that graph, proves the claim to be false. Nothing you've said refutes that.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Get more people with guns, and you get more gun murders. There is a very good reason why the USA has five times the per capita murder rate of my country, and why two thirds of those excessively large numbers of murders are done with firearms.


There is a reason, yes, but it is not because more people have guns.

We have already been over all this before, Lance. You have not said anything new that I haven't already debunked in a previous thread. More than once.

Instead of playing the same old broken record and boring everyone to death, try bringing something new to the discussion.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:23 pm

The England experience chart comes from http://www.qando.net/2012/12/24/england ... effective/ . Of interest, there is no discussion on how the chart was created or sourced except it was found on another blog.

I recall reading "something" that the homicide by gun rate in England did go up but never a chart or explanation, .... so this is good. IIRC--the notion that banning guns actually does work was more specifically about preventing Mass Murders defined as 4 or more people at a time?

Lance: you say the chart is defective. How so?/Link??
Grouper: by inference, are you agreeing the gun murder rate did go down in Australia??

xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
The simple fact is, the gun nuts want their guns and they assume they are safe (enough) from the murder rate that such gun availability causes. In the main, this is often correct. The moose hunter in Idaho has little to fear from the 40 murdered every weekend in Chicago.......but the former does cause the latter.


I disagree with your conclusion (in yellow).


Gun policy is a combo of national vs local policies. When the Gun Nuts in Idaho fund the NRA to campaign against effective gun laws in Chicago, they are one source of the problem. Your disagreement is spin.


xouper wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Guns........are not muskets. Something that some day the Supremes will no longer deny with their activist rulings.


If you want to argue that the Second Amendment does not apply to new technologies such as the AR-15, then you must also argue that the First Amendment does not apply to television, radio, ebooks, computers, or the internet.


You spin again, this time less understandably. The Second Amendment "applies" to all issues. The relevant analysis ALL THE TIME is the benefits and burdens of all proposed rules in light of ALL OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. I agree that "modern advances" in technology have to be recognized and dealt with by the Supremes otherwise the Const becomes a dead document. But what has CLEARLY happened with the 2nd Amendment is that the new tech has been applied WITHOUT CONSIDERATION of the increased harm to public and individual safety that such new tech provides. Its a thought experiment....but in 1783, would the Founding Fathers have authorized private citizens to carry the Weapons of Mass Destruction that we have today? I don't think so....just as the majority of people think not today. Of note: proponents of an invasive information gathering protective government do argue that increased harm associated with computers and internet have not been appreciated by the privacy advocates. The same analysis is not made when it comes to guns...... yet. But, when the Supremes finally decide to exercise some freaking common sense, that will be the argument used. Yes......all our rights appropriately balanced with modern realities applied.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:There hasn't been a fully engaged militia vs militarized police stand-off as far as I know.


Altho the Branch Davidianz were a relijus cult, they had enuf hardware to qualify az a militia Waco standoff.

I think Uncle Sam learned a lesson from that and haz a polisy to just wait out the uppity gun wako gatheringz.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:44 pm

Thanks Jo......I thought about them. They had lots of guns but weren't really gun nuts and they tried to "hole up" rather than "attack" the gubment. It is somewhat DARKLY ironic that a black man going for his wallet after told to do so will be shot by cops who are "afraid" but armed white militia drawing a bead on law enforcement will be "waited out."

Heh, heh.......almost makes you think North Korea is ..........right.
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:18 pm

The Kim Jong dynasty arent the 1st. I credit the Ayatola Komeni with hiz declaration that America iz "the great Satan", but I'm sure further resurch coud turn up previous notable obzerverz.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Xouper

The British graph.

The murders run from 40 to 100. But of all those murders, the ones done with hand guns average and always have averaged, less than one per year. As data goes, you are trying to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sows ear. Less than one hand gun murder per year is totally submerged in the random variation of the data. In other words, that graph is meaningless. Like all your other arguments.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:13 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Xouper

The British graph.

The murders run from 40 to 100. But of all those murders, the ones done with hand guns average and always have averaged, less than one per year.

Are you saying then that of the 40 or 60 or 100 firearm deaths noted, only one was a handgun and the rest were long rifles or shotguns..............crossbows?

..........and that reminds me, I think I did read somewhere that the "stats went up" because they changed what was being measured. EG: before it was murder by handguns and after as this chart may or may not show it was "violations of the new ban on hand gun law."....or maybe as Lance says they included long arms thereafter.

Hard to say yea or nay without an explanation of the chart. I see the Science Denying data perverts may have spread their evil?
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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:56 am

Bobbo

Britain is not the USA. Hand guns have always been restricted, and most murders are done with other means. That is why that graph tells you nothing.

It would be very different in the USA. Hand guns are so easily come by that people tend to carry them concealed, whether legally or otherwise. That means that when disputes arise, a hand gun is often available and someone dies. There are 4,000 homicides per year in the USA when two guys are in an argument which gets vicious, and one pulls out a hand gun and killed the other. There are another 4,000 hand gun murders each year in the USA mostly stemming from different kinds of disputes. Long gun murders in the USA are a fraction of the hand gun murders.

Xouper apparently believes that this has nothing to do with hand gun availability. Yes. And an invisible pink unicorn follows me everywhere also.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:45 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Xouper

The British graph.

The murders run from 40 to 100. But of all those murders, the ones done with hand guns average and always have averaged, less than one per year. As data goes, you are trying to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sows ear. Less than one hand gun murder per year is totally submerged in the random variation of the data. In other words, that graph is meaningless. Like all your other arguments.


Not so.

The claim was that more guns means more gun murders and that the UK gun ban is evidence of that.

The UK data contradict that claim as stated.

It does not matter how small or big the numbers are, since the original claim did not make that distinction.

Secondly, if you are going to dismiss the UK data, then you can no longer use the UK as an example of how a gun ban decreases gun murders.

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Re: American guns on dark web.

Postby xouper » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

Britain is not the USA. Hand guns have always been restricted, and most murders are done with other means. That is why that graph tells you nothing.


Then you agree the UK handgun ban cannot be used as evidence that banning handguns in the US will reduce handgun murders in the US.


Lance Kennedy wrote:It would be very different in the USA.


Then you agree it is not valid to compare the UK with the USA.


Lance Kennedy wrote:Hand guns are so easily come by that people tend to carry them concealed, whether legally or otherwise. That means that when disputes arise, a hand gun is often available and someone dies. There are 4,000 homicides per year in the USA when two guys are in an argument which gets vicious, and one pulls out a hand gun and killed the other. There are another 4,000 hand gun murders each year in the USA mostly stemming from different kinds of disputes. Long gun murders in the USA are a fraction of the hand gun murders.

Xouper apparently believes that this has nothing to do with hand gun availability.


You have shown no evidence of any causal connection between number of handguns and number of handgun murders. You have merely shown a correlation and as any respectable scientist knows, correlation is not evidence of causation.

And in any case, there are other correlations that show the opposite, as I have already posted many times in previous threads.

We have had this conversation before Lance and you have not said anything that has not already been debunked.


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