Gun control?

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Kevin Levites
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Gun control?

Postby Kevin Levites » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:12 pm

I have an issue with gun control that I rarely seem to mentioned elsewhere.

A 3-d printer can enable a maniac to manufacture key portions of a gun in his/her basement.

Also, anyone with any mechanical aptitude can build a gun (and ammunition) from scratch in a basement workshop. I have also seen toy guns which can--with a minimum of work--be converted into real guns.

If guns are outlawed, what's to prevent an enterprising criminal from manufacturing his/her own, and setting up an underground business (like a meth lab) and selling them indiscriminately?

At least we have some semblance of accountability and paperwork with the system that's in place . . . although I do concede that there is considerable room for improvement.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:15 pm

Right now they don't even have to do that. They can just follow an "open carry" and hit them in the back of the head with a sock full of quarters. Bingo, free gun.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Kevin Levites » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:18 pm

I get your point, and it's well taken.

Thank you for replying.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:32 pm

Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:39 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.


So...if having a gun for protection is OK with you, but not every person should have one...which people are undeserving of the means to protect themselves?
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:42 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.


So...if having a gun for protection is OK with you, but not every person should have one...which people are undeserving of the means to protect themselves?

"The Rule of So states that when a reply begins with "So..." it should be inspected for a strawman argument." As in this case.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:17 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.


So...if having a gun for protection is OK with you, but not every person should have one...which people are undeserving of the means to protect themselves?

"The Rule of So states that when a reply begins with "So..." it should be inspected for a strawman argument." As in this case.


So...now you're making up rules? :lol:

Besides, gun control shouldn't be a question. Everyone knows the way to control guns is with their triggers. ;)
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Re: Gun control?

Postby TJrandom » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:28 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.


So...if having a gun for protection is OK with you, but not every person should have one...which people are undeserving of the means to protect themselves?

"The Rule of So states that when a reply begins with "So..." it should be inspected for a strawman argument." As in this case.


So...now you're making up rules? :lol:

Besides, gun control shouldn't be a question. Everyone knows the way to control guns is with their triggers. ;)


I thought it was by grabbing their butts...

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:12 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Bottom line: Fewer guns, fewer guns for criminals. I would never advocate a complete ban on firearms, I've been an owner and a shooter since 1965 and a combat veteran since 1970. But having one gun for every man, woman, and child in this country is just {!#%@} nuts.


So...if having a gun for protection is OK with you, but not every person should have one...which people are undeserving of the means to protect themselves?

"The Rule of So states that when a reply begins with "So..." it should be inspected for a strawman argument." As in this case.


So...now you're making up rules? :lol:

Besides, gun control shouldn't be a question. Everyone knows the way to control guns is with their triggers. ;)

Idiot.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gord » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:59 am

Kevin Levites wrote:A 3-d printer can enable a maniac to manufacture key portions of a gun in his/her basement.

Is that true now? I know it didn't use to be. Sure, you could print up things with the right shape, but they weren't strong enough and would burst asunder if you tried to use them to make a firearm.

What's the state of 3-d printers like these days?
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:01 pm

Print up some 3D gunpowder and primers while we're at it.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gord » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:04 pm

I've seen the joke about printing up your own 3-d printer twice in two days now. (That's also not possible.)
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:04 pm

Gord wrote:I've seen the joke about printing up your own 3-d printer twice in two days now. (That's also not possible.)


Some people don't understand how things work. When the bank told my ex-wife her checking account was overdrawn she offered to write them a check. ;)
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:09 pm

Making weapons at home is nothing new. When I first took up spearfishing, I built my own speargun, including filing out the trigger mechanism out of a block of brass. Clever people can make firearms, even without 3D printers, and always have been able to . Yet in countries like mine, private ownership of banned firearms is very rare. Sure, there may be the one in a million person who is prepared to make his own illegal weapon, but they are few and far between.

The key, as I have always said, is to ban handguns in private ownership (hand guns are the cause of most murders in the USA), and make sporting long guns available, but not easy. You would need a license, and that would be as difficult to get as a drivers license, requiring a course and and exam, plus a police check. Then buy a sporting long gun.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:03 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Making weapons at home is nothing new. When I first took up spearfishing, I built my own speargun, including filing out the trigger mechanism out of a block of brass. Clever people can make firearms, even without 3D printers, and always have been able to . Yet in countries like mine, private ownership of banned firearms is very rare. Sure, there may be the one in a million person who is prepared to make his own illegal weapon, but they are few and far between.

The key, as I have always said, is to ban handguns in private ownership (hand guns are the cause of most murders in the USA), and make sporting long guns available, but not easy. You would need a license, and that would be as difficult to get as a drivers license, requiring a course and and exam, plus a police check. Then buy a sporting long gun.


I am more concerned that clever people can make bombs.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:11 am

I once had to hunt down a moron who made bombs.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:39 am

Gun control about norms: stealing is not illegal because we think otherwise all people will steal: it's to declare that we want a theft-free society.
Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gord » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:52 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.

I care most about a society where irresponsible people don't get to point guns at other people. Hunting doesn't bother me as long as you don't shoot me in the city "by accident" (as in, checking to see if your rifle is loaded by pulling the trigger like an idiot).
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:24 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Gun control about norms: stealing is not illegal because we think otherwise all people will steal: it's to declare that we want a theft-free society.
Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.


Then most people should be happy with guns in the hands of anyone who has served in the military?
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Re: Gun control?

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:26 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Then most people should be happy with guns in the hands of anyone who has served in the military?


happy might be the wrong term, but I guess most people won't object
- I wouldn't .
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:31 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Gun control about norms: stealing is not illegal because we think otherwise all people will steal: it's to declare that we want a theft-free society.
Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.


Then most people should be happy with guns in the hands of anyone who has served in the military?

Another strawman. Most military people don't get combat training. In WWII 1 out of 10 of our Army people saw combat.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby ahhell » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:46 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Gun control about norms: stealing is not illegal because we think otherwise all people will steal: it's to declare that we want a theft-free society.
Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.


Then most people should be happy with guns in the hands of anyone who has served in the military?

Another strawman. Most military people don't get combat training. In WWII 1 out of 10 of our Army people saw combat.

Sure but most of them get weapons training in bootcamp, including safety and shooting at a range. I'm curious where the 1 in 10 number comes from. My quick search of the internet just leads me to other forums, quora, and reddit.

Aside from that, the point stands regarding the purpose of laws. Nobody thinks making murder a crime will end murder, likewise nobody thinks making guns illegal will make them disappear. It makes the op a bit of a red hearing.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:02 pm

Sure but most of them get weapons training in bootcamp, including safety and shooting at a range.
:chortle:
I'm curious where the 1 in 10 number comes from. My quick search of the internet just leads me to other forums, quora, and reddit.

The number comes from the Army Green Books (official history of the Army in WWII.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:53 pm

Re guns in the hands of those trained in the military.

ThE major problem is and always will be hand guns. They are portable and concealable, which means that any nasty bugger can carry them on his person unnoticed, and snatch it out to kill someone when he feels like it. Military people will be no different.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:34 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Gun control about norms: stealing is not illegal because we think otherwise all people will steal: it's to declare that we want a theft-free society.
Most people want a society where only properly vetted and trained people are allowed to have guns.


Then most people should be happy with guns in the hands of anyone who has served in the military?

Another strawman. Most military people don't get combat training. In WWII 1 out of 10 of our Army people saw combat.


Another example of someone pretending to know things he doesn't know.

Everyone in the military must qualify with at least one firearm during basic training and re-qualify annually. I'm grateful I didn't end up in Viet Nam, but I qualified with an M-1 Carbine and an AR-15. I also received hand-to-hand combat training. In the Air Force! I was a supply Sgt and never saw combat.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:11 am

I spent 20 years in the USN. shooting people when I got the chance. I know that the vast majority of my fellow sailors were never qualified for any serious firearm work.

And last time I look the quals for military firearms weren't to up civilians standards in most states.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:03 am

Military training is absolutely the LAST thing you want for a civilian who will own a gun. The military train soldiers to use guns to kill people. Civilians should not even think that way. A civilian with a gun should be a hunter, trained to use his gun to bring home the venison. Not kill people.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:07 am

@Lance
I disagree.

Soldiers on leave or retired are very aware that they aren't in any armed conflict.
Firearms in the hands of ex-soldiers are mostly a danger for their owners, since this group has a disproportionately high suicide rate.
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3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:33 pm

EM

That too. I am aware of the high suicide rate. Switzerland, for example, has the highest suicide rate in western Europe, and it is mainly soldiers using their own guns.

Most soldiers will be fine in terms of not shooting other people. But it only takes a minority. It is also true that soldiers are often emotionally disturbed, after returning from a field of conflict, and some will go completely off the rails.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:22 pm

Gawd - How much military weapons training is directed to de-escalating hostilities so no one gets hurt?

Even the police here don't get adequate training for that. When I worked at the Crisis Centre, my de-escalating hostilities training was considerably better than what the RCMP get.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:26 pm

The best gun training for the police is when NOT to fire. One technique is to have police exposed to simulated emergencies where a video screen is used, with people popping up on the screen. Some of those people will be threats, and some will be innocent people. The police have to decide in a split second whether or not to fire on a terrorist, or alternatively a mother with her baby. This technique would be further improved with virtual reality.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:25 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:Gawd - How much military weapons training is directed to de-escalating hostilities so no one gets hurt?

Even the police here don't get adequate training for that. When I worked at the Crisis Centre, my de-escalating hostilities training was considerably better than what the RCMP get.

Why are you asking me?
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Re: Gun control?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:43 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:Gawd - How much military weapons training is directed to de-escalating hostilities so no one gets hurt?

Even the police here don't get adequate training for that. When I worked at the Crisis Centre, my de-escalating hostilities training was considerably better than what the RCMP get.

Why are you asking me?


You know more about what training there is than others I might ask.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:16 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Why are you asking me?
OlegTheBatty wrote:You know more about what training there is than others I might ask.


At first I was going to argue that policing and the military had two very different goals and therefore, very different training regimes. However in reflection, the armies and navies of the world do seem to be doing more and more policing. I guess we are in the middle of a "shifting of purpose" for the military.

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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:48 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:Gawd - How much military weapons training is directed to de-escalating hostilities so no one gets hurt?

Even the police here don't get adequate training for that. When I worked at the Crisis Centre, my de-escalating hostilities training was considerably better than what the RCMP get.

Why are you asking me?


You know more about what training there is than others I might ask.

Very few military get the "utban combat course"-type training, so we don' t have a large cadre of potential police support or opposition from handgunners.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:57 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Why are you asking me?
OlegTheBatty wrote:You know more about what training there is than others I might ask.


At first I was going to argue that policing and the military had two very different goals and therefore, very different training regimes. However in reflection, the armies and navies of the world do seem to be doing more and more policing. I guess we are in the middle of a "shifting of purpose" for the military.


I don't think it's the same kind of policing as cops do. I think it's mostly to keep the riff-raff from looting everything in sight, and maybe to discourage the more violence prone riff-raff from shooting up the place.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:13 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Why are you asking me?
OlegTheBatty wrote:You know more about what training there is than others I might ask.


At first I was going to argue that policing and the military had two very different goals and therefore, very different training regimes. However in reflection, the armies and navies of the world do seem to be doing more and more policing. I guess we are in the middle of a "shifting of purpose" for the military.


I don't think it's the same kind of policing as cops do. I think it's mostly to keep the riff-raff from looting everything in sight, and maybe to discourage the more violence prone riff-raff from shooting up the place.

Yep. You don't see one soldier in one car being assigned a patrol area. The military governments installed in subdued countries in/after WWII wear to keep the country from rejoining its allies, with a secondary goal of keeping things quiet.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:35 am

But to be fair, many SWAT equipped policemen act as if they were in a warzone.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:42 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:But to be fair, many SWAT equipped policemen act as if they were in a warzone.

Tail/Dog situation. When I went into South Central looking for deserters I went in war mode, and wearing a silk suit.

The SWAT guys use the CCC and infiltration systems developed by the military because they work. No need to re-invent the wheel.

However, if anyone wants to stroll into a crack house that probably has Xxth guns I'd recommend they have a nice sitdown chat with a mental health specialist first.
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Re: Gun control?

Postby digress » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:03 am

Only guns can control guns.
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