AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

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AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:19 pm

When I think of an AR-15, semi or auto, I think of the clip size and the fire rate. I haven't before really thought or focused on the "damage an ar-15 can do to the human body." ie--the speed of the bullet causes x3 the damage of a hand gun. The bullet from a hand gun can be survived....the same shot with an AR-15 will destroy you.

A short interesting/informative read: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby gorgeous » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:14 pm

all guns are designed to kill...if the govt declares martial law you would wish you had an ar-15...
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:37 pm

All guns are not designed to kill.........but...........close enough. I have no guns...........don't want one if the gubment declares martial law.

Woo plus fantasy role playing huh? Ha. ha. What color is the sky in your universe?
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:When I think of an AR-15, semi or auto, I think of the clip size and the fire rate. I haven't before really thought or focused on the "damage an ar-15 can do to the human body." ie--the speed of the bullet causes x3 the damage of a hand gun. The bullet from a hand gun can be survived....the same shot with an AR-15 will destroy you.

A short interesting/informative read: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

I carried one for a few years back in the '70s. Good for shooting birds. Last time I used one I killed 23 coyotes.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:26 am

Sounds like.................fun.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Sounds like.................fun.

I don't normally hunt anything that can't hunt me, but coyotes are just large rats.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:50 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Last time I used one I killed 23 coyotes.

Intentionally, or as collateral damage from shooting birds?
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:31 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:When I think of an AR-15, semi or auto, I think of the clip size and the fire rate. I haven't before really thought or focused on the "damage an ar-15 can do to the human body." ie--the speed of the bullet causes x3 the damage of a hand gun. The bullet from a hand gun can be survived....the same shot with an AR-15 will destroy you.

A short interesting/informative read: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/


Informative but a tad misleading. It would have been better to compare the AR-15 to other rifles. Not to handguns. This is like saying "My machete is deadlier than your pocket knife."

Not that I own a machete. I do own a wicked pocket knife, though.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:54 am

Yes, not all firearms are designed to kill. A lot depends on ease of use, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy and ammo type.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:40 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Yes, not all firearms are designed to kill. A lot depends on ease of use, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy and ammo type.


While that's true, the skill of the shooter can also make a difference. If you see a gangbanger holding a gun with one hand, at arm's length - sideways - the safest place to stand might be right in front of him. :D
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:00 am

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Last time I used one I killed 23 coyotes.

Intentionally, or as collateral damage from shooting birds?

We go out once a year and thin the little {!#%@} out some. Reduces the number of missing cats and pregnant dogs.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:37 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Last time I used one I killed 23 coyotes.

Intentionally, or as collateral damage from shooting birds?

We go out once a year and thin the little {!#%@} out some. Reduces the number of missing cats and pregnant dogs.

Still talking about birds, right?

Damn sparrows, constantly eating my dogs.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:49 am

Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Gord wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Last time I used one I killed 23 coyotes.

Intentionally, or as collateral damage from shooting birds?

We go out once a year and thin the little {!#%@} out some. Reduces the number of missing cats and pregnant dogs.

Still talking about birds, right?

Damn sparrows, constantly eating my dogs.

The birds I shoot were Asian herons. Very tasty. The thinning was done on coyotes and their human equivalent, Trump voters.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:58 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:Informative but a tad misleading. It would have been better to compare the AR-15 to other rifles. Not to handguns. This is like saying "My machete is deadlier than your pocket knife."

Not that I own a machete. I do own a wicked pocket knife, though.

Ha, ha.....PA....do you think its misleading to be informed? (JOKE!!---SNARK/OFF)

Every issue can be placed in 15+ different contexts. I saw the article simply as a reminder of another reason all high velocity rifles are so dangerous. The charge of being misleading seems relevant only if the article was making some point between rifles and hand guns that was not valid? EG: I'm hearing Right WingNut Punditry on the tube now declaring that its stupid to talk gun regulation when 4 times as many people are killed with knives. See the "dislocation?"
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby fromthehills » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:53 pm

I plan on shooting my AR today. There's an old propane bottle that deserves it.

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:32 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Yes, not all firearms are designed to kill. A lot depends on ease of use, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy and ammo type.


Paint guns, caulking guns, nail guns, flare guns....

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:41 pm

fromthehills wrote:I plan on shooting my AR today. There's an old profane bottle that deserves it.

Good enough.



What did it say?
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:46 pm

(And watch out for Gawd...)
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:14 am

TJrandom wrote: Paint guns, caulking guns, nail guns, flare guns....
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Blacksamwell » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:When I think of an AR-15, semi or auto, I think of the clip size and the fire rate. I haven't before really thought or focused on the "damage an ar-15 can do to the human body." ie--the speed of the bullet causes x3 the damage of a hand gun. The bullet from a hand gun can be survived....the same shot with an AR-15 will destroy you.

A short interesting/informative read: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

Technically speaking, unless it is being used as a club, the firearm itself doesn't do any of the damage. Therefore any discussion that talks about what damage the AR15 can do is off course from the get-go.

It is the nature of the projectile (bullet), it's speed, and the resulting energy transfer from projectile to target that dictate the damage caused from any one shot. Which type of firearm was used is irrelevant.

The Remington 223 or NATO 5.56 cartridge are the most common calibers for the AR15 style sporting rifle, but they are also used in numerous bolt action rifles, single-shot break action rifles, and alternative semi-auto rifles. A .224 inch diameter projectile weighing from 50 to 80 grains and traveling 2500 to 2900 feet per second hits with 1200 to 1400 foot pounds of torque regardless of the rifle used.

Because rifle rounds are generally built to deliver greater velocity and energy, they almost always deliver greater energy to the target. But there's nothing about the AR15 that makes it unique in this regard. Rifles are simply larger firearms that allow more propellant in the case, higher pressures can be managed safely, the longer barrel lets all that pressure push the bullet to higher speeds. Cut the barrel of an AR15 down to 10 inches or less and a good deal of the speed and energy of the 223 or 5.56 round is lost. Shoot a typical handgun round through a rifle length barrel and it will pick up additional speed and therefore deliver more energy on the target.

Anyway... Just adding details to the discussion.

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gord » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:13 pm

:wave: Hi Blacksamwell.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:03 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:When I think of an AR-15, semi or auto, I think of the clip size and the fire rate. I haven't before really thought or focused on the "damage an ar-15 can do to the human body." ie--the speed of the bullet causes x3 the damage of a hand gun. The bullet from a hand gun can be survived....the same shot with an AR-15 will destroy you.

A short interesting/informative read: http://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/


site story was a bit disappointing - thought there would be actual numbers / comparisons
BUT the related video about the ghost gunner milling machine is awesome - thanks
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:47 pm

Black Sam: excellent contribution so thanks. but I'm confused. You say its not the gun but the bullet then conclude by saying if you saw off the barrel of the AR-15 it is not as lethal.

Leaves me thinking it must be some kind of combo plate?
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:49 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Black Sam: excellent contribution so thanks. but I'm confused. You say its not the gun but the bullet then conclude by saying if you saw off the barrel of the AR-15 it is not as lethal.

Leaves me thinking it must be some kind of combo plate?

"Guns don't kill people, it's them little pellets that come outta the end what does that." :roll:
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:55 pm

.....or you can back up some more and say its not little pellets that kill people but the blood vessels not maintaining their integrity. Its really all the fault of the person getting shot.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:01 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.....or you can back up some more and say its not little pellets that kill people but the blood vessels not maintaining their integrity. Its really all the fault of the person getting shot.

Yep, the downward spiral is tight and steep.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:19 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:.....or you can back up some more and say its not little pellets that kill people but the blood vessels not maintaining their integrity. Its really all the fault of the person getting shot.


yep not wearing correct ppe can get you fired
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:25 am

Psych: is that "get you fired" or get you fired upon? working folks need to know.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Psych: is that "get you fired" or get you fired upon? working folks need to know.


just fired - your supposed to access the situation , and wear the correct ppe .
in the usa that would often mean wearing the same stuff a swat team would wear .
so if your not wearing body armor its your fault .
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Black Sam: excellent contribution so thanks. but I'm confused. You say its not the gun but the bullet then conclude by saying if you saw off the barrel of the AR-15 it is not as lethal.

Leaves me thinking it must be some kind of combo plate?

Reducing barrel length reduces the velocity of the projectile, all other things being equal. And to be technical, there's a point of diminishing returns when a barrel is so long that the velocity begins to fall. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

Reducing the velocity of the projectile reduces it's energy and thus any impact made is less lethal. Shorter barrels produce reduced velocities, all other things being equal. This applies to ALL firearms. Any two firearms that send similar bullets at similar speeds such that those bullets will have similar wounding properties.

Consider also that you can easily adjust the lethality of the bullet you're using by picking a different type of ammunition for the same firearm. When hunting, the goal is always a quick harvest where the animal suffers as little as possible. One picks from various bullet designs so that the energy delivered is tailored to the biology of the animal and the result is a quick and humane kill. Notice that the lethality of the specific round depends on the energy delivered on target and the behavior of the bullet after impact. For small game like gophers the hunter needs a projectile that will mushroom immediately on impact and transfer all of its energy to the target within the first two inches of penetration. If a sturdier bullet is chosen, or the correct bullet is not fired with enough velocity, the bullet will pass through the game without mushrooming or tumbling leaving a narrow puncture wound through the animal.

Ballistic testing gel is now widely available and there are loads of youtube videos and web pages (including data from the FBI) demonstrating how different calibers and projectiles behave when they are fired into a gel that mimics flesh. Some of the slow speed video is astounding.

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:10 pm

Sam: all good info but the point is your inconsistency. I'm still going with combo-plate unless someone convinces me otherwise.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Sam: all good info but the point is your inconsistency. I'm still going with combo-plate unless someone convinces me otherwise.

You're welcome to. Just be prepared to explain how any one firearm makes the projectile more lethal vs another firearm that delivers the same projectile in exactly the same fashion.

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:26 pm

Thats not the lethality of interest. You do know that words have different meanings? Different shades of meaning depending on context? There is nothing interesting in recognizing that dead is dead. How did they get that way? Only a gun?==not unless swung like a battle axe. Only by the bullet?==only if a case of same fell off a high shelf.

So.........we are left with the combo-plate.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thats not the lethality of interest. You do know that words have different meanings? Different shades of meaning depending on context? There is nothing interesting in recognizing that dead is dead. How did they get that way? Only a gun?==not unless swung like a battle axe. Only by the bullet?==only if a case of same fell off a high shelf.

So.........we are left with the combo-plate.

Perhaps that's not the lethality that you're interested in. No worries.

Agreed, projectiles are set in motion using a system that includes a firearm.

My point: The nature of the projectile, its weight, construction, and velocity at impact determines the wounding effect and the projectile cares not which design of firearm is is propelled from. Using the same ammunition, the projectile from an AR-15 with a 20 inch barrel has the same wounding potential as the projecting fired from a bolt action rifle with a 20 inch barrel.

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby KevinLevites » Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:34 pm

As much as I'm conflicted about gun ownership, there is a relevant point to be made about the AR-15 (and many other semi-autos) that I don't see in the news.

I would like you to picture taking a small electric motor with a flywheel on it, and clamping it to the trigger guard of a semi-auto rifle.

Now, when the motor is turned on and rotating at several hundred times a minute, it pulls the semi-auto trigger at a rate of several hundred times a minute, which--for all intents and purposes--converts the semi-auto rifle into a full-fledged machine gun.

This is, in my mind, a dangerous loophole in the gun laws, since such a rifle hasn't been converted because there is no gunsmithing work done to it. A device which does this (and it doesn't use a motor, but I used the example of a motor just to make my point) is commercially available for $29.99 from some of our finer Internet retailers, and is perfectly legal because of the loophole.

When I heard about the Orlando nightclub massacre, I had actually expected this device (or something like it) to be involved, although I later turned out to be wrong.

Toys like these are where I think lawmakers need to focus their efforts.

Any ideas?

Best,
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:23 pm

KevinLevites wrote:Toys like these are where I think lawmakers need to focus their efforts.


Ummmmm...seems to me the focus should be on banning the gun type, clip size, close the loop holes, require insurance, full licensing etc. Your idea would only force the market into killing at finger pulls rates...probably more accurate and lethal than the toy you reference.

Bad social policy really corrupts every ideas associated with it.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby KevinLevites » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:31 pm

Thank you for answering my post.

Best,
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby KevinLevites » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:33 pm

Thank you for answering my post.

Best,
---Kevin

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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:56 pm

I was honored by one thank you. Two...is really overkill.
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Re: AR-15...a rifle designed to kill

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:07 am

At a suggested retail of $500, this probably isn`t the same device - but `near full auto` seems promised. There oughta be a law... or maybe the semi guns should be required to have at least a 5 second wait built in - sorta like bolt action guns.

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/guns/n ... full-auto/


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