50 dead in Florida

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:22 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Right back at you - as a fellow slave of government, you also have the "freedom" to be robbed (via taxation) and killed (via wars, terrorist "refugees", police violence, and by secret service agents if they really get fed up with you).



...right.

VKTW, you really are the teenager who tells his parents "i didn't ask to be born". You have this weird notion that it's "The People vs. The Government" - typical puberty outrage against "The Man" which conveniently ignores that we are in a democracy.


:lol: You really think that being given a "choice" about which gang of corrupt parasitical plutocrats gets to extort us every few years makes up for the fact that we are subject to such extortion to begin with??

It's total nonsense to compare taxes with robbery


Why??

, or failure of law enforcement to protect you from crime with the crime itself.


I'm not comparing the failure of law enforcement to protect me from crime with the crime itself, I am comparing the very practice of law enforcement by the State with crime itself.


Grow up.


Wake up!
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:26 am

TJrandom wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote: ... , and by secret service agents if they really get fed up with you).


Or by NRA nutters if they get the, wink, wink, message from Trump.


Sure, because saying "I don't know" is such a clear definitive incitement to kill someone :lol: :roll:
Last edited by Venerable Kwan Tam Woo on Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:29 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:And that which occurs when idea X is implemented depends largely upon how and when it is implemented.

something that is true all the time and to everything is meaningless without providing the context that shows the probable outcome in any given context.


Something that is always true is therefore meaningless...hmm, that's a very curious piece of Bobbo logic right there!

Why you so meaningless?


Why are you so incapable of thinking coherently? Perhaps you need to watch less Clinton News Network.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:36 am

woo--you really have to read the whole thing. Thats why I wrote it that way. Not all your thinking should be confined to the space of a bumper sticker.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:39 am

Great -
Another closet anarchist who thinks he alone understands the world.

If you don't like it, move to a different country.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:14 am

I believe he came out as an anarchist quite a long time ago...

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:17 am

TJrandom wrote:I believe he came out as an anarchist quite a long time ago...


Nope - talking on a forum does not an anarchist make.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:26 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:I believe he came out as an anarchist quite a long time ago...


Nope - talking on a forum does not an anarchist make.


True - but if you believe he believes the things he posts, then the evidence for being an anarchist is clear. Of course he may be in denial, and thus still closeted.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:woo--you really have to read the whole thing. Thats why I wrote it that way. Not all your thinking should be confined to the space of a bumper sticker.


I read the whole thing, the last half of it didn't add any sense or value.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:10 am

Well..... read it until it does. Because, it does. With practice, your attention span may be increased.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:46 pm

Here we go again. Reuters is fanning the flames this morning with "At least one dead, one injured in school shooting. School on lock-down."
Sounds like another mass shooting, right? Yeah, that's what you're supposed to think.

One student shot a class-mate and then the shooter committed suicide. End of story. Or, it would be. There was another injury. A cop shot another cop "by mistake".
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:52 pm

Looks like "only you" are going again. Mass Shooting: by definition: four or more including the shooter.

But why is your declaration the end of the story? Seems like a worthwhile opening to: "How can we best stop guns from being so easily available that school kiddies can get them.... and why do they?"

...........or cops and their abysmal lack of training.

Your choice............ or ............. nothing to see here?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Looks like "only you" are going again. Mass Shooting: by definition: four or more including the shooter.

But why is your declaration the end of the story? Seems like a worthwhile opening to: "How can we best stop guns from being so easily available that school kiddies can get them.... and why do they?"

...........or cops and their abysmal lack of training.

Your choice............ or ............. nothing to see here?


If you're giving me a choice, I choose "nothing to see here". Well, not nothing, but also not what the media is attempting to imply.

I see this as part of a continuing practice. The anti-gun folks like to repeat the statistic that there have been 74 "school shootings" in a year. In order to reach that scary number, they included: 2 night janitors got in a fight and one shot the other...on school grounds. Or the case where police were pursuing an alleged criminal who ran onto school grounds at night when their were no kids around. The cops cornered him and shot him...on school grounds. There are many more such cases included in the "74" statistic. The media exaggerates for ratings and the public doesn't ask enough questions.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:47 pm

So?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:08 pm

UPDATE:

It was reported earlier that a police officer was accidentally shot by a co-worker. That was incorrect.

"In addition to the injured and dead students, a responding deputy managed to have a negligent discharge and wounded himself. His condition is not known at this time".

Negligent discharge. Nice phrase.

I've always said people should get training before being allowed to purchase a gun. I didn't think it necessary to mention people should also get training before their employer just hands them one. :lol:
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:18 pm

Yeah.... my first experience with a "real" gun was my good friends father took us out deer hunting. Handed me an German Mowser and said don't point it at me. That was it. No need for a permit to hunt in the Federal Park either.

did I say the Mowser was "new." //// I joke.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby JO 753 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:07 am

Paul Anthony wrote:I see this as part of a continuing practice. The anti-gun folks like to repeat the statistic that there have been 74 "school shootings" in a year. In order to reach that scary number...


Suppoze there were nun until 1 day an overpressurized teacher came to class with an Uzi? Same number all at wuns duznt make a real differens - it just seemz way wors than wen the blood gets splattered over the hole country over a yirz time.

The problem iz that any shooting at a skool shoud be big scary newz. But bekuz there are alwayz a bunch uv shootingz everywhere every day, the norm haz been skewed to a rediculous level.

If there were 'only' 74 shooting deths in Chicago this yir, the newz woud be wut a big improvement it iz. (its around 500 so far)

Its like a stink in your house - you get used to it and dont smell it. You vizitorz do tho.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:07 am

There were shots fired in a Minnesota mall. People running in a panic. But it turned out the shots were fired by the cops.

Oh, yeah, a guy with a knife stabbed several people in the mall.

A bomb went off in NYC. 27 people were taken to the hospital.

By all means, let's ban GUNS. :evil:
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:35 am

Paul

As I have said before, there are 8,000 hand gun murders each year in the USA. Also 12,000 hand gun suicides. The harm done by all other guns pales into insignificance. So be smart. Ban hand guns.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:16 am

Well Paulie: with the deaths already caused by knives which are restricted as to types and sizes, and by bombs also pretty much banned, why should the law not similarly control/outlaw guns? Which of the homicidal tools is not like the others?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby JO 753 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:24 pm

OK, Paul, lets do a comprimize - Ban gunz, but legalize explosive devisez.

So, for personal defens, you now get to carry grenadez. You can hav land minez on your property. Booby traps on your car. Anything that explodez without an aimable projectile iz now legal.

Happy now?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:46 pm

JO 753 wrote:OK, Paul, lets do a comprimize - Ban gunz, but legalize explosive devisez.

So, for personal defens, you now get to carry grenadez. You can hav land minez on your property. Booby traps on your car. Anything that explodez without an aimable projectile iz now legal.

Happy now?


I`d suggest that the law require that the owner of each of these proposed self defence explosive devices always be within the blast zone.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:50 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well Paulie: with the deaths already caused by knives which are restricted as to types and sizes, and by bombs also pretty much banned, why should the law not similarly control/outlaw guns? Which of the homicidal tools is not like the others?


You make my argument for me better than I can. We have already outlawed bombs and restricted knives, but people who are determined to do harm still use the banned and regulated weapons. What makes you think banning or regulating guns will have a different result?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:06 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well Paulie: with the deaths already caused by knives which are restricted as to types and sizes, and by bombs also pretty much banned, why should the law not similarly control/outlaw guns? Which of the homicidal tools is not like the others?


You make my argument for me better than I can. We have already outlawed bombs and restricted knives, but people who are determined to do harm still use the banned and regulated weapons. What makes you think banning or regulating guns will have a different result?


Ah... easy peazy... Since all of those bad boy - pry my fingers off nutters will have shown their true colors, being wannabe criminals and all, they will eventually all be rounded up and imprisoned. And once this is all done and dusted, guess what... no more gun deaths.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:36 pm

Paul Anthony wrote: What makes you think banning or regulating guns will have a different result?


Because it has been done. The experiment is over, the results in, and a clear cut conclusion derived.

EVery western country EXCEPT the USA has banned hand guns in civilian ownership, and EVERY one has seen hand gun murders drop to close to zero. Except the USA, of course.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:43 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote: What makes you think banning or regulating guns will have a different result?


Because it has been done. The experiment is over, the results in, and a clear cut conclusion derived.

EVery western country EXCEPT the USA has banned hand guns in civilian ownership, and EVERY one has seen hand gun murders drop to close to zero. Except the USA, of course.


Exaggerate much? Handgun ownership has been limited in most western countries. Violence has been reduced in the US while gun ownership has increased. Meanwhile, violence still continues in those western countries that have severely regulated guns.

But keep on repeating whatever makes you feel good. ;)
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:02 pm

Paul

As I have told you several times. Violence has been reduced all over the western world as the percentage of young people drops in the population. Gun ownership in the USA has increased, but the number of gun owners has not. About 100 million Americans own guns (one third), and this ratio has not changed in decades. So the fact that the average gun owner now owns 3.2 guns instead of 3.1 is an irrelevancy in terms of gun violence. Your argument is based on lies and deception, and probably comes from the NRA.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:03 pm

[quote="Paul Anthony"]

1. Exaggerate much? /// Specifically...what is exaggerated? My first impression of hand gun deaths was that it was understated. Is your comment fact based.....or just kneejerk?

2. Handgun ownership has been limited in most western countries. /// The subject is in the USA. Fishing with red herrings...or more kneejerk?

3. Violence has been reduced in the US while gun ownership has increased. /// Mixing and matching violence with death from guns...or do you have violence BY GUNS in mind????

4. Meanwhile, violence still continues in those western countries that have severely regulated guns. /// Again, with the violence reference instead of the relevant issues of guns. You trying to be a mindless shill on purpose, or does this nonsense come from the heart???

5. But keep on repeating whatever makes you feel good. /// Gee... trying to stop gun violence is just a feel good exercise?

Sucks to be You................ try to be relevant, responsive to the actual issues. Use your brain for something other than a doorstop.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:52 pm

Back to the NY pressure cooker... some are saying that it was a Trump fearmongering attempt. (I won`t be saying who those some people are... :roll: )

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:00 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well Paulie: with the deaths already caused by knives which are restricted as to types and sizes, and by bombs also pretty much banned, why should the law not similarly control/outlaw guns? Which of the homicidal tools is not like the others?


You make my argument for me better than I can. We have already outlawed bombs and restricted knives, but people who are determined to do harm still use the banned and regulated weapons. What makes you think banning or regulating guns will have a different result?

Is the rate of use of outlawed bombs the same as if they were not outlawed? Knives?

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:47 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Paul

As I have told you several times. Violence has been reduced all over the western world as the percentage of young people drops in the population. Gun ownership in the USA has increased, but the number of gun owners has not. About 100 million Americans own guns (one third), and this ratio has not changed in decades. So the fact that the average gun owner now owns 3.2 guns instead of 3.1 is an irrelevancy in terms of gun violence. Your argument is based on lies and deception, and probably comes from the NRA.


Where do you get your numbers? The government has seen an increase in new first-time applications for gun permits. If the number of gun owners has remained constant the old gun owners must be dying off at a tremendous rate. Oh, I know...their committing suicide. :lol:
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Specifically...what is exaggerated? My first impression of hand gun deaths was that it was understated. Is your comment fact based.....or just kneejerk?


Once again, you think responses to other posters are directed at you. Sheesh! I quoted Lance, who said "EVery western country EXCEPT the USA has banned hand guns in civilian ownership" That's an exaggeration.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. The subject is in the USA. Fishing with red herrings...or more kneejerk?


No, the subject of Lance's post was "Every western country..." Pay attention!
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:58 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Law enforcement exists because some people break laws. If there is no law broken, law enforcement can't help.


If you believed that (and you should) you would not be so eager to take guns away from people who haven't broken any laws.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:54 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Specifically...what is exaggerated? My first impression of hand gun deaths was that it was understated. Is your comment fact based.....or just kneejerk?


Once again, you think responses to other posters are directed at you. Sheesh! I quoted Lance, who said "EVery western country EXCEPT the USA has banned hand guns in civilian ownership" That's an exaggeration.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. The subject is in the USA. Fishing with red herrings...or more kneejerk?


No, the subject of Lance's post was "Every western country..." Pay attention!

Oh Paulie: People here are free to engage any comment made to anyone else....just as you do. Nice double standard you employ.

it is a matter of construction but in context Lance comment did mention western countries but THEN WENT ON to address the USA which is actually where Florida is located. You see... in such ambiguous set ups, you take the specific over the general. I know... paying attention makes little difference when you don't know what to pay attention to.

Skills. You could develop them.... if you wished.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:49 am

TJrandom wrote:Back to the NY pressure cooker... some are saying that it was a Trump fearmongering attempt. (I won`t be saying who those some people are... :roll: )


The voices in my head told me the same thing.
But I don't trust the one with the French accent.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:47 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:1. Specifically...what is exaggerated? My first impression of hand gun deaths was that it was understated. Is your comment fact based.....or just kneejerk?


Once again, you think responses to other posters are directed at you. Sheesh! I quoted Lance, who said "EVery western country EXCEPT the USA has banned hand guns in civilian ownership" That's an exaggeration.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:2. The subject is in the USA. Fishing with red herrings...or more kneejerk?


No, the subject of Lance's post was "Every western country..." Pay attention!

Oh Paulie: People here are free to engage any comment made to anyone else....just as you do. Nice double standard you employ.

it is a matter of construction but in context Lance comment did mention western countries but THEN WENT ON to address the USA which is actually where Florida is located. You see... in such ambiguous set ups, you take the specific over the general. I know... paying attention makes little difference when you don't know what to pay attention to.

Skills. You could develop them.... if you wished.


Nice try, Bobbo, but in your post you clearly take offense at something you misunderstood. You assumed "Exaggerated" referred to something you said, 'cause everything is about you. Poor Bobbo.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:17 am

What I clearly said is that I thought hand gun deaths were underreported...an exaggeration of the statistic.

Misunderstanding are like that. How does that saying go? "I know you think you understand what I said but what you don't recognize is that what I said was not what I meant?" --No....thats too clear. Hah, ha....it was more messed up than that.

I know that I'm constantly ragging on you. Could still be some pearls somewhere. I don't take offense at "anything." Getting upset???---sure. Stupidity has that tug, but that doesn't mean from time to time I wont be wrong as well. I got clearer in my thinking/arguing by recognizing that simple fact. Always on the lookout for the stronger argument. My North Star. THAT is the opposite of trying to have a particular point of view prevail. Arugments may look the same, but be very different in motivation.

Be honest, be direct. Learn. change. Improve. Enjoy.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Lance Kennedy » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:55 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
Where do you get your numbers? The government has seen an increase in new first-time applications for gun permits.


My numbers come from a Harvard University study. It is difficult to know exactly how many guns and gun owners exist due to the regulations that act to prevent accurate data being gathered. Harvard had to use indirect measures to get a reasonably accurate estimate. But their conclusions were more guns per gun owner, but not more gun owners.

At the same time, there has been a dramatic change in the age structure of the population. The Baby Boomer generation created a major 'blip' with more young people, the age of greatest violence, between roughly 1965 and 1990. Murder rates rose for that perio and fell after 1990. The USA murder rates followed the change in age structure exactly. As we would expect. The fact that the number of gun owners did not change does not alter the impact of the change in numbers of young, and thus more violent, people.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:45 pm

This has the makings of a pretty good study once it is peer reviewed. It maybe shouldn't have been released yet, but here it is:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/19/us-gun-ownership-survey
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:40 am

Good stuff, Paul.
You will note that this reference backs up what I said, based on the Harvard research.


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