50 dead in Florida

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:16 am

TJrandom wrote:
This in a PDF...

Approximately 203,300 prisoners serving a sentence in a State or Federal prison in 1997 were armed when they committed the crime for
which they were serving time. An estimated 18% of State prison inmates and 15% of Federal inmates reported using, carrying, or possessing a firearm during the crime for which they were sentenced. In 1991, 16% of State inmates and 12% of Federal inmates said they were armed at the time of their offense.


http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf


That's a very interesting collection of data. What I find most interesting is it does not support the usual claim that closing the alleged "gun show loophole" would make much of a difference. "In 1997 among State inmates possessing a gun, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source".

It kinda does support the argument that people buying guns at gun shows are law-abiding people.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:32 am

Paul Anthony wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
This in a PDF...

Approximately 203,300 prisoners serving a sentence in a State or Federal prison in 1997 were armed when they committed the crime for
which they were serving time. An estimated 18% of State prison inmates and 15% of Federal inmates reported using, carrying, or possessing a firearm during the crime for which they were sentenced. In 1991, 16% of State inmates and 12% of Federal inmates said they were armed at the time of their offense.


http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf


That's a very interesting collection of data. What I find most interesting is it does not support the usual claim that closing the alleged "gun show loophole" would make much of a difference. "In 1997 among State inmates possessing a gun, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source".

It kinda does support the argument that people buying guns at gun shows are law-abiding people.


Most people everywhere are law-abiding people. That doesn`t mean that one should not impose upon those who are not in order to weed out those who are.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:47 am

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... fenses.jsp

The plea bargain system is a direct result of police and prosecutors being too busy to do their job properly: it only works against those who can't afford a long trial and decent lawyer.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
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3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:09 am

ElectricMonk wrote:More guns do not provide more security - or to be more precise: in the US, laws like 'stand your ground' are an excuse to scale back the size of the police force: if there is no chance of the police to arrive within 20min, of course having a weapon in reach can make sense, or at least having the threat that you might have one.
But that would not be necessary if we had a credible police presence.


A "credible police presence"? Hmm, you mean like Stasi or SS "credible"?

Concerning Munich: the attacker invited a lot of 'friends' to join him in the mall, and he selectively shot them before killing himself. This is a scenario that will never be preventable, but it is also incredibly rare.


Yes it is rare - over the last 20 years there have been about 4 mass shootings per year on average in the US, a country with a population of around 300 million. The average per year number of people killed in mass shootings in the US over that time period is equivalent to about 0.24% of the US's total homicides for 2013.

If his mates had guns on their own, they would have been the first to die, that's all.


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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:15 am

TJrandom wrote:Most people everywhere are law-abiding people. That doesn`t mean that one should not impose upon those who are not in order to weed out those who are.


...said every totalitarian despot ever.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:38 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Most people everywhere are law-abiding people. That doesn`t mean that one should not impose upon those who are not in order to weed out those who are.


...said every totalitarian despot ever.


You are like a kiddie complaining about early bedtime.
You have no clue what a totalitarian state is like, so your comparisons are just laughable.
Last edited by ElectricMonk on Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:59 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Most people everywhere are law-abiding people. That doesn`t mean that one should not impose upon those who are not in order to weed out those who are.


...said every totalitarian despot ever.


A good example would be the tax system/IRS. Most people are honest in paying their taxes, but the IRS still conducts audits which confirm those who are honest but at an imposition, and catch the few who are not.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:04 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Most people everywhere are law-abiding people. That doesn`t mean that one should not impose upon those who are not in order to weed out those who are.


...said every totalitarian despot ever.


A good example would be the tax system/IRS. Most people are honest in paying their taxes, but the IRS still conducts audits which confirm those who are honest but at an imposition, and catch the few who are not.


If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:01 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Yes it is rare - over the last 20 years there have been about 4 mass shootings per year on average in the US,

Man, do you cherry pick.

Your definition holds only if you count just those where a lot of people are killed. Mass shootings, where zero to a couple are killed but others wounded are much more common. Even then, your estimate is at the lowest end - 5 to 8 is a more common estimate.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:39 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:... If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.


You may be partially right - the IRS probably needs more staff and a more aggressive approach.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:18 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:... If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.


You may be partially right - the IRS probably needs more staff and a more aggressive approach.


http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-ta ... nforcement

The Treasury estimates that every $ invested in the IRS will increase revenue by $4.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:06 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:... If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.


You may be partially right - the IRS probably needs more staff and a more aggressive approach.


http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-ta ... nforcement

The Treasury estimates that every $ invested in the IRS will increase revenue by $4.


Yes, indeed, let's collect more dollars for the government to spend. Why do some people think of government as a parent, and their own after-tax earnings an allowance Daddy let's you keep after taking what he wants?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:29 pm

Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:... If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.


You may be partially right - the IRS probably needs more staff and a more aggressive approach.


http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-ta ... nforcement

The Treasury estimates that every $ invested in the IRS will increase revenue by $4.


Yes, indeed, let's collect more dollars for the government to spend. Why do some people think of government as a parent, and their own after-tax earnings an allowance Daddy let's you keep after taking what he wants?


Nobody thinks that. What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over. These people gladly pay their taxes for the great benefit the national government creates. Of course there are others who just want a free ride on the backs of those who do pay their taxes.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:25 am

TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:... If you think the IRS is a good example of anything, there is no point in discussing anything serious with you.


You may be partially right - the IRS probably needs more staff and a more aggressive approach.


http://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-ta ... nforcement

The Treasury estimates that every $ invested in the IRS will increase revenue by $4.


Yes, indeed, let's collect more dollars for the government to spend. Why do some people think of government as a parent, and their own after-tax earnings an allowance Daddy let's you keep after taking what he wants?


Nobody thinks that. What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over. These people gladly pay their taxes for the great benefit the national government creates. Of course there are others who just want a free ride on the backs of those who do pay their taxes.


Careful, you could be accused of patriotism! If the federal government was only involved in the things you mentioned...mainly national defense...I might agree with you. Fortunately, thanks to the myriad alphabet agencies that inhibit freedom, I don't have to.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:36 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Yes it is rare - over the last 20 years there have been about 4 mass shootings per year on average in the US,

Man, do you cherry pick.

Your definition holds only if you count just those where a lot of people are killed. Mass shootings, where zero to a couple are killed but others wounded are much more common. Even then, your estimate is at the lowest end - 5 to 8 is a more common estimate.


My definition and figures hold for incidences comparable with the Bataclan and Munich shopping centre massacres, which is what this particular subsection of the conversation was about to begin with. Alas, I have not been able to find data on zero- or minimal-fatality mass shootings for countries other than the US, so I used data and criteria from Wikipedia instead (you can also find a graph here). But even with your definition, we find that in 2013 38% of US mass shootings were non-fatal and another 28% only involved one fatality, and that mass shooting fatalities only accounted for 3.8% of total US homicides in 2013.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:40 am

TJrandom wrote:What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over.


Anarchists by definition have no interest in taking over! And in case you haven't noticed, criminals have already taken over the US. No foreign power is going to be too keen to invade a country with a population of 300 million and enough guns to arm every man, woman and child.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:14 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over.


Anarchists by definition have no interest in taking over! And in case you haven't noticed, criminals have already taken over the US. No foreign power is going to be too keen to invade a country with a population of 300 million and enough guns to arm every man, woman and child.


If it were not for the federal government and the military forces it commands - the US would be overrun by any of several foreign governments with the silly gun nutters providing nothing more than target practice for their trained army. The anarchists might not take over in the sense of governing - but the lawlessness they would foist upon the rest of the population would make a foreign takeover seem benign.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:04 am

What any market economy needs is a market.

And any market needs protection, physical and otherwise.

How is an anarchist state going to protect property rights and enforce contracts?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:45 am

Anarchist: one who believes in anarchism.

Anarchism: A political theory favoring the abolition of governments

It follows then that: It is the anarchists who take over.... as there is no government to stop them.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:20 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Anarchist: one who believes in anarchism.

Anarchism: A political theory favoring the abolition of governments

It follows then that: It is the anarchists who take over.... as there is no government to stop them.


True "anarchism" is as unattainable as "social justice". Both are idealistic wet dreams. But why should we be surprised that both the far left and the far right have idealistic imbeciles?

There will always be some form of government, whether elected or just assumed by those with the most power. This does not detract from the concept that a government that governs best is one that governs least. Personal freedom increases as government regulations decrease.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:25 pm

Paulie===so possessed by bumper stickers you are. I'll wager most of what you might example as one man's freedom would be another mans oppression. General sayings are for idiots....they are true only when interpreted, defined, set in a specific context and so forth. NEVER are they general rules.

Wise up.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:09 pm

All governments start out small. Then along comes a wise guy who abuses the lack of laws, regulations and control. Voters call for lawmakers to stop this.
Rinse and repeat.

The first thing critics of government do is pretend it's not their government, too. As voter and citizen, whatever mess the country is in is also your mess.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:33 pm

Meanwhile, back to the subject of "gun violence"... (try to ignore the name of the website and read a pretty well written op ed - especially the last few paragraphs)

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/01/wheres-love-remake-will-fail-miserably-stopping-gun-violence-heres/?utm_source=ra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:44 pm

From the article

This steep decline in criminal activity with firearms coincides with efforts by the firearms manufacturing and training industries to provide better safety training for both gun owners and better gun safety training to “gun-proof” kids. The National Shooting Sports Foundation’s Project ChildSafe is going a long way to help educate consumers about the importance of keeping guns safely stored when not in use, while the National Rifle Association’s 97,000+ strong instructor training arm and the Eddie Eagle program has helped to dramatically lower accidents with firearms in the past 20 years (PDF)


So even your source agrees that firearm training and education about children and guns is a factor in reducing gun deaths and accidents.
Why not make them mandatory for gun owners?
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:51 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:From the article

This steep decline in criminal activity with firearms coincides with efforts by the firearms manufacturing and training industries to provide better safety training for both gun owners and better gun safety training to “gun-proof” kids. The National Shooting Sports Foundation’s Project ChildSafe is going a long way to help educate consumers about the importance of keeping guns safely stored when not in use, while the National Rifle Association’s 97,000+ strong instructor training arm and the Eddie Eagle program has helped to dramatically lower accidents with firearms in the past 20 years (PDF)


So even your source agrees that firearm training and education about children and guns is a factor in reducing gun deaths and accidents.
Why not make them mandatory for gun owners?


That's something I've supported all along. Everyone should be required to show basic knowledge of how to safely use a gun before being allowed to buy one. The NRA has always offered training, and most NRA members take advantage of what they offer. But it's voluntary. I support making it mandatory.

A gun is a tool. I would never pick up a tool I didn't know how to use. Years ago, a neighbor sliced his arm on a table saw and bled to death before his wife found him. That made me even more cautious when using mine. Many tools are dangerous - even deadly - if not used properly. A gun is certainly one of them. Responsible people get educated.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:36 am

Careful here.... that paragraph says that `criminal activity` declines with that training. Criminal activity? What is it in the training that reduces criminal activity - separate from accidents? How does training reduce criminal propensity/activity?

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:04 am

TJ==tish, tish. You are making the quote one based on causation, but the NRA is a professional long con game. They only said the crime reduction was "coincidental with."==ie they don't even claim any causal connection. It becomes irrelevant that I don't even believe them on the base statistic.

All guns should be licensed. Licensing assumes education, testing, insurance. This applies even to "rights."
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:55 am

TJrandom wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over.


Anarchists by definition have no interest in taking over! And in case you haven't noticed, criminals have already taken over the US. No foreign power is going to be too keen to invade a country with a population of 300 million and enough guns to arm every man, woman and child.


If it were not for the federal government and the military forces it commands - the US would be overrun by any of several foreign governments with the silly gun nutters providing nothing more than target practice for their trained army.


Which foreign governments would they be? Canada's, with its population 1/10th the size of the US? Mexico's, which is barely able to keep control of its own country? Or do you expect some major world power like China or Russia to invade, even though global superpowers have previously brought themselves to the brink of economic ruin in unsuccessful attempts to subdue little countries like Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq?

The anarchists might not take over in the sense of governing - but the lawlessness they would foist upon the rest of the population would make a foreign takeover seem benign.


You previously made a distinction between anarchists and criminals, why are you now conflating them?? An anarchist is someone who believes there should be no (an) rulers (-archy). Anarchists do not wish to foist anything on the rest of the population - on the contrary, their goal is to have a society where no one foists anything upon them or upon anyone else!
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:05 am

Woo===when there are no rulers, who rules?
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:51 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:What they do think – is that the national government is necessary to the very existence of the US and the freedoms of citizens – lest anarchists, criminals, or foreign powers take over.


Anarchists by definition have no interest in taking over! And in case you haven't noticed, criminals have already taken over the US. No foreign power is going to be too keen to invade a country with a population of 300 million and enough guns to arm every man, woman and child.


If it were not for the federal government and the military forces it commands - the US would be overrun by any of several foreign governments with the silly gun nutters providing nothing more than target practice for their trained army.


Which foreign governments would they be? Canada's, with its population 1/10th the size of the US? Mexico's, which is barely able to keep control of its own country? Or do you expect some major world power like China or Russia to invade, even though global superpowers have previously brought themselves to the brink of economic ruin in unsuccessful attempts to subdue little countries like Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq?

The anarchists might not take over in the sense of governing - but the lawlessness they would foist upon the rest of the population would make a foreign takeover seem benign.


You previously made a distinction between anarchists and criminals, why are you now conflating them?? An anarchist is someone who believes there should be no (an) rulers (-archy). Anarchists do not wish to foist anything on the rest of the population - on the contrary, their goal is to have a society where no one foists anything upon them or upon anyone else!


Poor lost soul... doesn`t realise that a lack of government means that anarchists and criminals will have their way. It doesn`t matter what anarchists want, but rather what occurs if they have their way.

As for foreign governmenets with modern armies - against gun nutters with big target markings on the t-shirts, there are many such countries that might want the US resources, and especially so if they have first weeded out the nutters.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Woo===when there are no rulers, who rules?


No one. It's called "freedom".
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:14 am

TJrandom wrote:Poor lost soul... doesn`t realise that a lack of government means that anarchists and criminals will have their way.


:lol: The presence of government means that criminals have their way!

It doesn`t matter what anarchists want, but rather what occurs if they have their way.


And what would that be?? Can you point to any examples that don't involve conflating anarchists with criminals?

As for foreign governmenets with modern armies - against gun nutters with big target markings on the t-shirts, there are many such countries that might want the US resources, and especially so if they have first weeded out the nutters.


Foreign governments with modern armies - you mean like the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the US in Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq? Fortunately there aren't likely to be too many of these target-marked gun nutters of which you speak, and if there are then it's easy enough for them to simply take off their target-marked t-shirts and put on some camouflage gear instead. Weeding out those so-called nutters isn't going to be a simple feat by any means, and even non-"nutters" can make forcible foreign extraction of what's left of the USA's natural resources very difficult and expensive indeed.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:50 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Woo===when there are no rulers, who rules?


No one. It's called "freedom".


congrats on your freedom to be robbed and killed.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:35 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Poor lost soul... doesn`t realise that a lack of government means that anarchists and criminals will have their way.


:lol: The presence of government means that criminals have their way!

It doesn`t matter what anarchists want, but rather what occurs if they have their way.


And what would that be?? Can you point to any examples that don't involve conflating anarchists with criminals?

As for foreign governmenets with modern armies - against gun nutters with big target markings on the t-shirts, there are many such countries that might want the US resources, and especially so if they have first weeded out the nutters.


Foreign governments with modern armies - you mean like the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the US in Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq? Fortunately there aren't likely to be too many of these target-marked gun nutters of which you speak, and if there are then it's easy enough for them to simply take off their target-marked t-shirts and put on some camouflage gear instead. Weeding out those so-called nutters isn't going to be a simple feat by any means, and even non-"nutters" can make forcible foreign extraction of what's left of the USA's natural resources very difficult and expensive indeed.


Dream on....

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:28 pm

TJrandom wrote:Poor lost soul... doesn`t realise that a lack of government means that anarchists and criminals will have their way. It doesn`t matter what anarchists want, but rather what occurs if they have their way.


So beautiful it makes me want to cry. The very heart and soul and POWER of pragmatism: "It doesn't matter what x idea wants, but rather what occurs if x idea is implemented."

I encourage everyone to apply the concept more often than we do.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:09 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Woo===when there are no rulers, who rules?


No one. It's called "freedom".


congrats on your freedom to be robbed and killed.


Right back at you - as a fellow slave of government, you also have the "freedom" to be robbed (via taxation) and killed (via wars, terrorist "refugees", police violence, and by secret service agents if they really get fed up with you).
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Poor lost soul... doesn`t realise that a lack of government means that anarchists and criminals will have their way. It doesn`t matter what anarchists want, but rather what occurs if they have their way.


So beautiful it makes me want to cry. The very heart and soul and POWER of pragmatism: "It doesn't matter what x idea wants, but rather what occurs if x idea is implemented."


And that which occurs when idea X is implemented depends largely upon how and when it is implemented.
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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:07 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:Right back at you - as a fellow slave of government, you also have the "freedom" to be robbed (via taxation) and killed (via wars, terrorist "refugees", police violence, and by secret service agents if they really get fed up with you).



...right.

VKTW, you really are the teenager who tells his parents "i didn't ask to be born". You have this weird notion that it's "The People vs. The Government" - typical puberty outrage against "The Man" which conveniently ignores that we are in a democracy.

It's total nonsense to compare taxes with robbery, or failure of law enforcement to protect you from crime with the crime itself.

Grow up.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby TJrandom » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:24 am

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote: ... , and by secret service agents if they really get fed up with you).


Or by NRA nutters if they get the, wink, wink, message from Trump.

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Re: 50 dead in Florida

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:41 pm

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:And that which occurs when idea X is implemented depends largely upon how and when it is implemented.

something that is true all the time and to everything is meaningless without providing the context that shows the probable outcome in any given context.

Why you so meaningless?
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