Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:44 am

@bobbo
that is what I'm saying: what isn't spend locally gets lost. So if you want to lower taxes, you should do it for low to medium incomes, not top ones.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:24 am

EM---Oh! Thats what you meant? Well then....we agree. Its the words you used that confused me.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:27 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I have read almost all Heinlen's SF books. I enjoy them, because he was a good writer. I am a bit put off by some of his comments that were based on some nastiness.

No one-to-one congruity of attitude is off-putting for you?

I found his comment on the use of violence to be completely congruent with my own experience. "Violence is the last resort of fools, but it's sometimes the first resort of the intelligent man."
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:35 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Violence is the last resort of fools, but it's sometimes the first resort of the intelligent man."


that is very sublime in contemplation. Hmmmm....I've never used violence.....for anything. Should I worry?
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:53 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:"Violence is the last resort of fools, but it's sometimes the first resort of the intelligent man."


that is very sublime in contemplation. Hmmmm....I've never used violence.....for anything. Should I worry?

Don't worry, we got it.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Well EM...I think you are wrong. Not strongly....as who knows economics....except posers? The savings are not invested but are spent, creating demand, creating jobs, creating multiple cycles of cash circulation and trickle up economics all resulting in higher tax revenues for the gubment? Thats the theory....and it makes sense..... as a theory. It breaks down, again---in reality, because no one follows it or applies it correctly and everyone uses the theory as a dogwhistle to those attracted to same. In a vacuum....we'd put Smart Matt to work to approximate Max Efficiency, get it wrong, and tinker with it each year to find the sweet spot.

Silly hoomans will never do that......so we build ivory towers to keep the eggheads from devising any more economic theories.

Remember the Panama Papers? That is where top end money goes - to tax havens, not spent, not invested. If there is a 30% tax saving by havening it, that is better than almost any investment.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:27 pm

Gawd

Heinlein did not use violence intelligently. For example, he believed in not just a spanking for naughty children, but seriously painful punishment, including whips. Just note his discipline methods in military training camps in 'Starship Troopers'. Whippings and hangings. Statistically, children and youths who are exposed to that level of punishment have a much higher chance of growing to become violent adults. So supporting that kind of violence is just stooopid!

On tax.
I note that the richest 67 individuals have possessions valued as much as the total for the poorest 50% of the human species. That is 3,500,000,000 men, women and children. That is an apalling statistic!

The only practical solution to that concentration of wealth where it is not needed is to tax the sheet out of the rich. Do the Robin Hood thing, and redistribute to the poor.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:40 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gawd

Heinlein did not use violence intelligently. For example, he believed in not just a spanking for naughty children, but seriously painful punishment, including whips. Just note his discipline methods in military training camps in 'Starship Troopers'. Whippings and hangings. Statistically, children and youths who are exposed to that level of punishment have a much higher chance of growing to become violent adults. So supporting that kind of violence is just stooopid!

On tax.
I note that the richest 67 individuals have possessions valued as much as the total for the poorest 50% of the human species. That is 3,500,000,000 men, women and children. That is an apalling statistic!

The only practical solution to that concentration of wealth where it is not needed is to tax the sheet out of the rich. Do the Robin Hood thing, and redistribute to the poor.

Lance, you ever been in the real world?

And may I ask if you've actually read Starship Troopers? Because you've completely missed the point. But I'll let you tell me why they erected the gallows...
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:43 pm

I have read Starship Troopers. I have seen the movie. I enjoyed the movie, and I found it hilarious that the movie critics hailed it as a wonderful satire on fascism. They failed to realise that the movie reflected what Heinlein wrote very well, and that Heinlein meant every word of it. The critics thought the movie was a satire on fascism and failed to realise that Heinlein was, in fact, a fascist, writing about what he saw as the ideal world.

As far as to why they erected the gallows. Yes I know. I read it. The guy they hanged could be said to deserve it. But so what? The point is that this was Heinlein's approach to justice. Whip them or hang them. No mercy.

Let me also make another point. If you follow the mellowing out of justice over the past few hundred years, from a time when death by torture was the normal punishment for over 200 listed 'crimes' (which included disagreeing with aristocrats), through to today, when the death penalty has been banned in all the most civilised nations, that EXACTLY followed a trend towards fewer and fewer serious crimes, including murder. Violent punishments do NOT reduce crimes.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:18 pm

You are lying about reading the book.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:07 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You are lying about reading the book.


Nope.
I have read almost all Heinlein's books. Farnham's Freehold was perhaps the most suspect, with his suggestion that future descendants of African Americans would be cannibals. That might be just an author's device, but could also reflect strong racist ideas. If you look at Methuselah's Children and the several sequels, you will see a strong elitist theme. Though Heinlein was a good author, his work is now somewhat obsolete, overtaken by developments in the modern world. My favorite was Job, which reflected more humor than his other books.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:20 am

What a moron. He pointed out in one of his books that every "race" had practiced cannibalism at some point. You missed what he was trying to say there, AGAIN.

Go with what you know, that way you don't have to lie.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:10 am

Gawd

No lies. Heinlein was talking of a FUTURE culture, not one in the past, when he suggested African Americans would become cannibals.

You seem set on defending Heinlein. Is he one of your heroes? I agree he was a good writer, and I enjoyed his books, but I am not blind to his flaws as a human.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:13 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:Remember the Panama Papers? That is where top end money goes - to tax havens, not spent, not invested. If there is a 30% tax saving by havening it, that is better than almost any investment.


Panama papers is "more" about where the top end money THAT IS STOLEN goes.....stolen by way of avoiding the tax raising tax enforcement issues more than the Laffer Curve or how the mix of taxes and fees should be structured to achieve the maximum effective tax rate.

It doesn't surprise me that the AlreadyTooRich bitch and moan about being over-taxed and that the poor are given too much. What disturbs me is how many poor people (IE==we the 99%) buy into that BS.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:14 am

Everyone should read "Stranger in a Strange Land." In fact......I really ought to move it up on my read one more time list.

So many long lists, so little time.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:24 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Everyone should read "Stranger in a Strange Land." In fact......I really ought to move it up on my read one more time list.

So many long lists, so little time.


Which also includes cannibalism.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:30 am

Lance--can you give a quick one line review of how Heinlein uses cannibalism in "Stranger...." .... ie... to what end/point/theme?

what I think I recall was a very prescient review of banking systems, and maybe how gullible people are...such as with displays of magic shows being thought of as real...... but it was a while back, hence the need for a re-read. Always dangerous that....few past experiences stand up.

EDIT--it occurs to me that a twist in Stranger was that the Magic "was real." Matter being created/destroyed/moved at the will of the Magician. In the book....it just made the guy a good show....probably more there I didn't grok?
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:29 am

The hero in stranger asks to get eaten when he has died. They oblige.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:06 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The hero in stranger asks to get eaten when he has died. They oblige.

Well, thats unusual.....and I have forgotten that pivotal image/theme.

Nice quick review here, I never knew the book was so influential...... supposedly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_ ... range_Land

Thanks. I do think its worth a re-read.............or would you suggest a different one?
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:24 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Gawd

No lies. Heinlein was talking of a FUTURE culture, not one in the past, when he suggested African Americans would become cannibals.

You seem set on defending Heinlein. Is he one of your heroes? I agree he was a good writer, and I enjoyed his books, but I am not blind to his flaws as a human.

You're blind to his books. Try reading them.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:The hero in stranger asks to get eaten when he has died. They oblige.

See? Totally {!#%@} shallow.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:48 am

Speaking of Kings and the Peasantry, I didn't know just how mercenary the Hessians actually were. A snipet for the Laffer Curve:

"In 1776 the enterprising [Crown-Prince] Wilhelm, [Landgrave of Hesse and Hanau] sold a first contingent of Hessian soldiers to his English cousin, George III, for use as cannon-fodder in the American war. In this profitable business Wilhelm was following the example of his ancestors under whose reign, as Landgraves of Hesse, the sale of soldiers had become a major export industry."

http://www.delanceyplace.com/view-archives.php?p=3112
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Paul Anthony » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:08 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:@bobbo
that is what I'm saying: what isn't spend locally gets lost. So if you want to lower taxes, you should do it for low to medium incomes, not top ones.


Thanks to the Earned Income Credit, low income earners don't pay federal income taxes. They get a "refund" on what they didn't pay. How much lower can their tax rate get?

But you are right about what isn't spent locally gets lost. That's one of the problems with a global economy. Even the poorest buy products made in China. Some more local merchants may make money on the transaction, but some of the profit leaves the country.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:36 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote:The hero in stranger asks to get eaten when he has died. They oblige.

See? Totally {!#%@} shallow.


Gawd.

I was asked about cannibalism in that book. I answered. There was no value judgement there. So your rude response was uncalled for.

Bobbo

Stranger in a Strange Land was a great book and carried an important message. But it is a bit dated now. That message has been repeated by other writers so many times that it has become pretty much a cliche. I said that Job was my favorite. It carries a mock religious theme and is quite funny.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:52 pm

Still not believing you read the books.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:30 am

Believe what you choose, Gawd. I do not lie. Not deliberately anyway. I have read his books. From memory, the only one I did not read was "Farmer in the Sky" because someone told me it was aimed at teenagers.

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:35 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Believe what you choose, Gawd. I do not lie. Not deliberately anyway. I have read his books. From memory, the only one I did not read was "Farmer in the Sky" because someone told me it was aimed at teenagers.
I have only your ignorance of the books to go on. :lol:
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Paul Anthony » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:41 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: I have only your ignorance of the books to go on. :lol:


You're lucky...most of us only have our own ignorance to go on. :lol:
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:53 am

Gawd....borrowed from another thread: you really are being a dickhead. That would be of the penis variety. Unless you can point to specific markers for lying....it only makes sense "for yourself" and also anyone else wanting to engage a thread without wading thru baseless BS to take statements at face value. why not? It moves things along rather than stuck in pointless sidetracks.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:38 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gawd....borrowed from another thread: you really are being a dickhead. That would be of the penis variety. Unless you can point to specific markers for lying....it only makes sense "for yourself" and also anyone else wanting to engage a thread without wading thru baseless BS to take statements at face value. why not? It moves things along rather than stuck in pointless sidetracks.

The evasiveness of the replies is the key. Anybody who had read the books would have answered with specifics. What we're getting is vague answers based on, perhaps, desperate Googles. He's not even very good at lying.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:36 pm

The perceived evasiveness is because it is a long time since I read them, so some details are fuzzy. But yes, I read almost all of them. I think, Gawd, you are offended because I said something negative about one of your heroes. Is that not so?

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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:43 pm

No, its because I have a low tolerance for lying.
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Re: Violent versus Non Violent Resistance to Tyranny

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:49 pm

You have a low tolerance for admitting you were wrong.


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