Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

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Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:26 pm

To be useful for self-defense a gun has to be instantly ready and easily at hand.

To be safe a gun has to be unloaded and stored where it can't be accessed easily.

Safety vs. instant use.

The only way to resolve this is to realize that guns aren't safe and shouldn't be easily accessed and available for instant use.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:45 pm

Even if instantly ready, for most a gun is no use in self-defense: you need an awareness for danger, extensive training and experience of firefights.

People with sufficient need for protection and the means therefore hire bodyguards, buying not a weapon but also the experience to use it. They also use armored vehicles and security systems.
But then, they are those who are statistically at risk - most gun owners are not.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:57 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Even if instantly ready, for most a gun is no use in self-defense: you need an awareness for danger, extensive training and experience of firefights.

This. In my two decades of military service I learned that you can never predict how you will react in a firefight, even when you're ready for it. People get distracted or surprised or confused and lose the thread. Having a gun at hand is only as good as your will to use it. I've seen unarmed men take guns away from guys who were unwilling to fire.

For those of you lurking out there who are thinking "I know how I will react", you don't, you just hope you'll react correctly.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:42 pm

Seems to me your conflict is based only on posing it in absolute terms whereas life presents itself with more variation.

If I live at home with wifey and no kiddies and we are both qualified, trained, and experienced, why should any (hidden) gun in our house be unloaded?

The entire issues of "guns" is one of trade-offs. To be entirely safe FROM guns, one should not have one at all including those that are unloaded and locked away. Again--just identifying the nature of the tradeoffs and different people will have different values, issues, and circumstances.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:48 pm

You just stepped out of the shower. A man walks in and points a gun at you. Is your gun ready for instant action?

Also, can you be CERTAIN that nobody will access your gun that shouldn't?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:51 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:You just stepped out of the shower. A man walks in and points a gun at you. Is your gun ready for instant action?

Also, can you be CERTAIN that nobody will access your gun that shouldn't?

Again.... your position is absolutitst. Now....I don't shower with my gun but I have seen several movies where our hero does just exactly that...as if he read the script or something.

But that aside.... straight forward... whats your point? Take the shower hypo and add it to all the other "real world" possibilities and you haven't responded to the point I made. If me and wifey are trained and expert...why shouldn't we keep a loaded gun hidden where we can use it rapidly?

Are you actually recommending taking a gun into the shower......... or what?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:21 pm

I was the gun with the gun in the above scenario. I had three police officers with me, but I went in first. If the dirt bag had been armed I would have been ready to shoot him. You aspersions about absolutism are just dodges.

My point is that although we knew the guy had several guns we were confident that he didn't shower with them. His guns were useless in that situation.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:36 pm

So..........your point is that if you don't have your gun in your hand you can't use it to shoot your way out of the shower when an arrest is about to be made on an no-knock home invasion by the authorities?

Good point. I hope it was the right address??? (Ha, ha......I dither.)

You seem to be honestly missing the point. Gun functionality is NOT DEFINED by specific examples of how they help or hurt, are useful or not. You have to sum up the entirety of their use. Sadly: statistics, not stories.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:44 pm

The Rule of So states that any response that begins with "So,..." should be checked carefully for a strawman argument. Bingo.

What I'm saying is that you can't have your gun instantly accessible all the time.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:00 pm

Or the Rule of So ..... points to the blindingly obvious that contributes nothing to an analysis.

Wanting to avoid any standoff..... Third Time: should wifey and I have a loaded gun hidden in our house, or not? If not, why not? aka: I have never found a rule that applies to all situations. Seems to me the handling of guns should vary according to the needs, wants, and desires of their owners. Contrary to what you pose: No irreconcilable conflict, but a managed one. Like most of life.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:18 pm

Quibble if you wish.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:23 pm

A direct question cannot be a quibble.

So................which would be more useful at this point? A gun, or a dictionary?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:48 pm

bobbo, statistically speaking, if you and your wife have a gun in your house, it's more likely you shoot yourself, each other or your kids find and use them than it is that you will need to use them during a break-in.

Of course, agency bias will always make us think that for me it is different, that I will always be able to control myself, my family and the weapon safely.

But we have clear data that guns in the house do not make a family safer.
We also have clear data that burglars will go to great lengths to avoid entering an occupied house. So unless you are exposed to special risks due to profession or otherwise, there is no safety or economic reason to have a gun and train with it sufficiently. Investing in home-security is better and safer.
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3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:59 pm

EM--I, you, we (I assume) agree completely. I'm just musing on the OP. Is there an irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk self defense"? That initial discussion with Gawd devolved into having a gun in the shower. This one more agreeably moves to what actually makes us safe, safer, safest. Do general gun statistics actually apply to those who are specifically trained?

...........and so forth.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:08 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:EM--I, you, we (I assume) agree completely. I'm just musing on the OP. Is there an irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk self defense"? That initial discussion with Gawd devolved into having a gun in the shower. This one more agreeably moves to what actually makes us safe, safer, safest. Do general gun statistics actually apply to those who are specifically trained?

...........and so forth.


I would say so: since most gun deaths are actually suicides, the more proficient you are the more likely you will successfully manage to blow your brains out - rank amateurs do miss sometimes...
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:13 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Do general gun statistics actually apply to those who are specifically trained?


Plenty uv storyz about 'gun guruz' shooting themselvez or otherz aksidently. Gun safety teacherz killing students in class!

You can be the worldz greatest gun dood, but you arent at 100% all the time. And during that below 100% time, your gun can still be at 100% hazard level.

And, az per the OP, the bad guy with a gun haz the advantaj all the way up to you having your gun in your hand; hiz gun iz in hiz hand AND pointed at your hed.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:45 pm

Jo--stories vs statistics. BIG difference. What a world this would be if specific training on an issue did not make a difference.

Know what I mean?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:33 pm

Statistics are vitally important. I did a holiday trip to Egypt knowing that terrorists operate there. I did it because I realise that less than 1 in a million tourists in Egypt are harmed by terrorism. All rational people operate according to a statistical assessment of risk. If we did not, we would not get out of bed in the morning.

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:46 pm

Lance: quite correct. You have a special case though. Comparing 1 in a Million in going to Egypt vs 1 in less than one Million staying home in New Zealand and dying from e coli in your unpasturized goat cheese.

An easy decision.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:50 pm

JO 753 wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Do general gun statistics actually apply to those who are specifically trained?


Plenty uv storyz about 'gun guruz' shooting themselvez or otherz aksidently. Gun safety teacherz killing students in class!

You can be the worldz greatest gun dood, but you arent at 100% all the time. And during that below 100% time, your gun can still be at 100% hazard level.

And, az per the OP, the bad guy with a gun haz the advantaj all the way up to you having your gun in your hand; hiz gun iz in hiz hand AND pointed at your hed.

And his adrenaline is pumping and he's wired with fear, anger, and fear. Pointing a gun at someone like that when they have a gun pointed at you is, in scientific parlance, STUPID.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:19 pm

Gawd---my heretofore natural inclination is to deny the "nerve factor" in diminishing gun performance. You just point one finger and pull the other one?

BUT==========>that thug a week or so ago that ran up to the cop car shooting many times including with his arms inside the cop car.....and he still missed, at least the kill shot. Hard to believe, but there it was. Then I also watched most of Eastwoods Unforgiven. All about being cool, calm, and collected to be an effective shooter.

Ha, ha. I always think "I'm special." Makes me laugh the number of times life has shown me to be no different. Training (if not actual experience) surely makes a difference?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:19 pm

"Jo--stories vs statistics."
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:22 pm

I used to kill people for a living. Most of it was done at a thousand yards or more, but some of it was at air-swapping range with a dying man. My troops agreed that you could never know for sure how you will react to combat, each time is special and unique. Train all you want, but training is no guarantee that you can pull the trigger on a man when you're looking him in the eyes.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:20 am

Just to quibble:

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:I used to kill people for a living.
Nice juxtaposition but I gotta say "for a living paycheck."

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: My troops agreed that you could never know for sure how you will react to combat, each time is special and unique.
Just like everything else in life eh?

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: Train all you want, but training is no guarantee that you can pull the trigger on a man when you're looking him in the eyes.
Guarantees are for the naive and gullible. But something tells me there is a reason the military trains it forces for their various assignments?

Aka==I'm not the only one quibbling: lots of air expended countering basically correct positions. I think you can train for that as well.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 am

Yeah, well when I start you let somebody who gives a {!#%@} know about it.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:12 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Jo--stories vs statistics. BIG difference. What a world this would be if specific training on an issue did not make a difference.

Know what I mean?


I didnt say training makes no differens. My meaning iz that no matter wut, you are still falibl and just 1 little slip can be fatal.

It relates to statistics. There iz no point on the bell curv at wich humanz are completely safe with gunz, therefor, how danjerous iz it to own a gun for the majority near the top uv the curv? At wut point on the curv are you more likely to shoot yourself than get shot?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:43 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: In my two decades of military service I learned that you can never predict how you will react in a firefight, even when you're ready for it. People get distracted or surprised or confused and lose the thread. Having a gun at hand is only as good as your will to use it. I've seen unarmed men take guns away from guys who were unwilling to fire.

For those of you lurking out there who are thinking "I know how I will react", you don't, you just hope you'll react correctly.


I agree with this statement. You never know how you will react. Every scenario is different. Every scenario's alternative "end game" has to be contemplated in micro seconds. No human can do that effectively. Every human is going to hesitate and probably still make a mistake in their reactions.

I'm not just talking about guns but also street fighting and general assaults. The rule for dealing with life threatening scenarios is "never go into berserker mode, if a calm head is the better option". :D

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:18 pm

As to scenarios playing out and training, there is a test question in pilot training you have to pass to get your wings: "You are over mountains with no place to land and you lose all four engines. What do you do?" The short passing answer is crash. The extra credit answer is: Follow the engine out check list .... and then crash.

What all youse guys highlight for me is that there is woefully inadequate training going on in the use of firearms. So true, as to be overlooked?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:45 pm

Its better that way.

Woud you rather hav sumwun shooting at you be untrained or a competent marksman?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:55 pm

Training only goes so far. If you don't reinforce it with actual combat there's a lack that needs attention. When I was working for the Navy's Deserter Apprehension Program we'd go into houses in the wee small hours of the morning. Seldom even saw a gun, and the ones we did see were almost never deployed.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:21 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:To be useful for self-defense a gun has to be instantly ready and easily at hand.

To be safe a gun has to be unloaded and stored where it can't be accessed easily.

Safety vs. instant use.

The only way to resolve this is to realize that guns aren't safe and shouldn't be easily accessed and available for instant use.

What exactly is unsafe about a firearm that's loaded, chambered, has any safeties engaged, and is secured in a quality holster on one's hip?

Look, I understand the apprehension. When I first obtained a carry permit I had no experience carrying a firearm in a holster. To reassure myself that there's no reasonable way that the gun would discharge when holstered I initially carried with an empty gun just around the house. After wearing my pistol for a few days while I went about my business at home I learned that I couldn't knock the gun out of the holster even when being active and at no point was there even the risk that the trigger could be tripped.

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:36 pm

Someone can walk up behind you and shoot you in the head. I've seen this happen. Then they take your gun. Criminal has your gun. Do you feel bad about that? No. You're dead.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:42 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote: In my two decades of military service I learned that you can never predict how you will react in a firefight, even when you're ready for it. People get distracted or surprised or confused and lose the thread. Having a gun at hand is only as good as your will to use it. I've seen unarmed men take guns away from guys who were unwilling to fire.

For those of you lurking out there who are thinking "I know how I will react", you don't, you just hope you'll react correctly.


I agree with this statement. You never know how you will react. Every scenario is different. Every scenario's alternative "end game" has to be contemplated in micro seconds. No human can do that effectively. Every human is going to hesitate and probably still make a mistake in their reactions.

I'm not just talking about guns but also street fighting and general assaults. The rule for dealing with life threatening scenarios is "never go into berserker mode, if a calm head is the better option". :D

I have no experience facing the stress of combat or police action. The closest I've ever gotten is when the buzzer sounds at my pistol matches and I do my best at executing the mental plan I'd just worked out. I quickly learned that that buzzer screws with your head and whatever plans you set evaporate with that sound. You'd have better practiced the skills you're now stringing together to address the target array because you do not have the luxury of thinking about exactly how you need to line up your sights, squeeze the trigger precisely, move, and time your reloads between shooting positions. When it all comes together I find myself surprised at how easily the targets fall and I think to myself "Holy crap I'm pulling this off!" Other times it is like watching yourself from afar as you make stupid mistake after stupid mistake. I'm just doing this for fun and I get a kick out of the adrenaline rush. I don't think I'd care for the additional terror and confusion that would result from rounds flying both directions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL9OPiVvqp0

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:52 pm

Come visit. I'll start shooting at you when you pull into the driveway. It will be educational. ;)
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Blacksamwell » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:56 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Come visit. I'll start shooting at you when you pull into the driveway. It will be educational. ;)

I'm a huge proponent of education. But on this one I'll gladly stay willfully ignorant. Thanks for the offer though. :D

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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:08 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Come visit. I'll start shooting at you when you pull into the driveway. It will be educational. ;)

I'm a huge proponent of education. But on this one I'll gladly stay willfully ignorant. Thanks for the offer though. :D

It's cool, it's cool, the .50 is out on long term loan.
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby OlegTheBatty » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:20 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Come visit. I'll start shooting at you when you pull into the driveway. It will be educational. ;)

OOOOO - I like learning new stuff. Can I bring donuts and coffee to class?
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Re: Irreconcilable conflict for gun owners who talk "self-defense".

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:52 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Come visit. I'll start shooting at you when you pull into the driveway. It will be educational. ;)

OOOOO - I like learning new stuff. Can I bring donuts and coffee to class?

Nah, just an up-armored Hummer.
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