Dylann Roof and gun control

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby JO 753 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:12 am

Flash wrote:countless Dirty Harry movies


5! There, I counted them!

There will be another massacre... soon, guaranteed.


Reality beat you to it. Your prediction iz verified.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Flash » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:46 am

That was easy, but at least in the article, the gunman is described as the "gun-toting maniac" instead of "the upstanding citizen having a bad hair day" .
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Lausten » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:07 am

I just visited a friend in the hospital, an ex-cop, very old school. He was a bit out of it, so I picked up his NRA magazine in the hopes of finding something we could talk about. Instead, I read a one page editorial on how Hillary is taking away not only 2nd amendment rights, but first amendment rights by being against the Citizen's United ruling. It's no wonder the gulf between the two sides is so huge with that kind of rhetoric. Luckily his meds put him to sleep.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:20 am

Lausten wrote:I just visited a friend in the hospital, an ex-cop, very old school. He was a bit out of it, so I picked up his NRA magazine in the hopes of finding something we could talk about. Instead, I read a one page editorial on how Hillary is taking away not only 2nd amendment rights, but first amendment rights by being against the Citizen's United ruling. It's no wonder the gulf between the two sides is so huge with that kind of rhetoric. Luckily his meds put him to sleep.


Maybe it isn`t so bad afterall - they didn`t mention that she was getting rid of cars and swimming pools too, did they? But whoda thought that she and Karl Rove had so much in common....

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby toroid » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:55 pm

An interesting paradox resulted from Roof's going off the deep end. If he hadn't (almost) no one would've known his views. Since he did, many people have read his manifesto. What's interesting is that his manifesto, although naive and in large part fantasy, does present some views that come closer to the mark than some of the "nice jive" typically promoted in society. Roof's manifesto doesn't base any of its views on belief in religion and disagrees with other more widespreadl racist beliefs.

I don't believe Roof is simply a psychopath. By killing he accomplished his goal; now it's a matter of paying the price.

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Or, much more likely, Dylann Roof is simply a psychopath. Occam's Razor and all that.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Poodle » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:29 pm

No, it's two.

But you're right about psychopathy. I believe he is, but have no way of showing that.

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:46 pm

Hint: It could be ... access to guns….

Everyone blames mental illness for mass shootings. But what if that’s wrong?

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8833529/me ... -shootings

there are a lot of other factors that aren't linked to mental illness that are equally predictive if not more predictive: access to firearms, substance use or abuse, and past history of violence or arrests. These are all far more predictive than a diagnosis of mental illness — and they're more preventive in the long run.

So while I do think there's a particular profile that many mass shooters fit into, the problem we get into when we diagnose the individual mass shooter and say mental illness is the cause is twofold. One, mental illness is really not causal for shootings; there's no mental illness that causes people to shoot other people. Two, focusing on mental health takes the shooting out of context. If you look at recent mass shooters, whiteness, for example, is a theme that runs through many, many mass shooters, but we would never say whiteness is a cause of this. It shows we collapse and oversimplify the roles of mental illness in shootings, and mass shootings in particular.

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:21 pm

Some of my cousins are discussing selling t-shirts that say "Roof the ghettos."

Yes, these are the people I don't see much.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:08 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Some of my cousins are discussing selling t-shirts that say "Roof the ghettos."

Yes, these are the people I don't see much.


We might be related.... I`ve got a few of those nutters somewhere too...

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:43 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Some of my cousins are discussing selling t-shirts that say "Roof the ghettos."

Yes, these are the people I don't see much.


We might be related.... I`ve got a few of those nutters somewhere too...

Mine are legion. They have this "Big 50" club, the fifty relatives with the most guns. Between them they have over 7,000 guns. That's 140+ guns average.

And yeah, they're on about a dozen watch lists.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:49 pm

TJrandom wrote:Hint: It could be ... access to guns….

Everyone blames mental illness for mass shootings. But what if that’s wrong?

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8833529/me ... -shootings

there are a lot of other factors that aren't linked to mental illness that are equally predictive if not more predictive: access to firearms, substance use or abuse, and past history of violence or arrests. These are all far more predictive than a diagnosis of mental illness — and they're more preventive in the long run.

So while I do think there's a particular profile that many mass shooters fit into, the problem we get into when we diagnose the individual mass shooter and say mental illness is the cause is twofold. One, mental illness is really not causal for shootings; there's no mental illness that causes people to shoot other people. Two, focusing on mental health takes the shooting out of context. If you look at recent mass shooters, whiteness, for example, is a theme that runs through many, many mass shooters, but we would never say whiteness is a cause of this. It shows we collapse and oversimplify the roles of mental illness in shootings, and mass shootings in particular.

Mental illness is just as often those who simply appear awkward or odd in ways that make the majority of others avoid them socially. But such social treatment, regardless of any essential brain damage, can make many become less sane. Isolated and rejected, this can and does affect people's psyches as is well understood through the penal systems or concentration camps, etc, when they place people in isolation for long duration. Ironically, such very isolation can also make people think more deeply and even make them quite ingenious in thought. But I think for some, the rejection of social interactions can also trigger a resentment towards others to a great degree and cause even 'good' people to go 'bad'....especially by impulse.

But I stick to believing that it is a matter of gun controls that can help prevent the acts. If one is isolated as many mentally ill people are, they are also equally isolated, if not more so, from street dealers who might be able to provide them with illegal arms. As such, any laws that discourage officially mentally ill people from obtaining guns would be more likely effective.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:24 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:... Between them they have over 7,000 guns. That's 140+ guns average.

And yeah, they're on about a dozen watch lists.


Un-firkin-fathomable.....

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:51 am

I just looked at the NRA website to see what words of wisdom they had on the Roof shooting – now that it has been a week. I expected to read some words of condolence and maybe how Roof doesn`t quite represent the good people of the NRA, conservatives, or even radicalized racists. Maybe even a few quotes from some of their leaders, and maybe even a suggestion or two on preventing the next `good-guy with a gun` from turning into a baddie. But I was truly surprised at their coverage of this tragedy, and thought that I should pass on a few quotes from their article.

Enjoy………..
quote……………………………………………./quote
and
quote……………………………………………./quote
and
quote……………………………………………./quote


http://home.nra.org/roof/ourtake

Oh – link not working? Not to worry, since they haven`t actually written anything at this juncture.

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:42 am

TJrandom wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:... Between them they have over 7,000 guns. That's 140+ guns average.

And yeah, they're on about a dozen watch lists.


Un-firkin-fathomable.....

One of them keeps his guns locked in a 1972 Econoline van in his garage. That's his version of a gun safe.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:12 am

Use the UK as an example, Scott. We have extremely strict gun controls, but people still get shot. The legal situation does very little to control the supply of illicit firearms - and we're not just talking about shotguns here. No one in this country would have to travel very far to find someone prepared to supply them with a gun, no questions asked. Expensive, yes, but difficult? Not very.

EDIT: Of course, it may help if sentences were made more punitive. Aa the moment, the minimum sentence is 3 years, which in the UK means release on licence after a year and a half. They can do that standing on their heads.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:14 am

Poodle wrote:Use the UK as an example, Scott. We have extremely strict gun controls, but people still get shot. The legal situation does very little to control the supply of illicit firearms - and we're not just talking about shotguns here. No one in this country would have to travel very far to find someone prepared to supply them with a gun, no questions asked. Expensive, yes, but difficult? Not very.

Per capita gun-related deaths for the two countries?
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Poodle » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:25 am

0.25 (UK) to 10.64 (USA). So your point is well made. However, a large proportion of that 0.25 rate consists of crimes committed with legally-held firearms. The only way to rid us of that would be a blanket ban on possession. Total gun control, if you like, would make a difference - but that's not going to happen in the UK and certainly not in the US. What I'm saying, I think, is that there's no middle ground - simply tinkering with the control system is unlikely to do anything at all.

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:35 am

What's the US rate for crimes committed with legally own firearms? Just to see the ratio.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby toroid » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:39 pm

Poodle wrote:No, it's two.


The spelling changed since I first saw the Talking Points link to lastrhodesian.com. I'll edit out the reference to one 'n' in the post. (Lastrhodesian's photo link has apparently been hacked by a Russian source) but the text link is intact (and the manifesto doesn't indicate the author's name.)

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:18 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Hint: It could be ... access to guns….

Everyone blames mental illness for mass shootings. But what if that’s wrong?

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8833529/me ... -shootings

there are a lot of other factors that aren't linked to mental illness that are equally predictive if not more predictive: access to firearms, substance use or abuse, and past history of violence or arrests. These are all far more predictive than a diagnosis of mental illness — and they're more preventive in the long run.

So while I do think there's a particular profile that many mass shooters fit into, the problem we get into when we diagnose the individual mass shooter and say mental illness is the cause is twofold. One, mental illness is really not causal for shootings; there's no mental illness that causes people to shoot other people. Two, focusing on mental health takes the shooting out of context. If you look at recent mass shooters, whiteness, for example, is a theme that runs through many, many mass shooters, but we would never say whiteness is a cause of this. It shows we collapse and oversimplify the roles of mental illness in shootings, and mass shootings in particular.

Mental illness is just as often those who simply appear awkward or odd in ways that make the majority of others avoid them socially. But such social treatment, regardless of any essential brain damage, can make many become less sane. Isolated and rejected, this can and does affect people's psyches as is well understood through the penal systems or concentration camps, etc, when they place people in isolation for long duration. Ironically, such very isolation can also make people think more deeply and even make them quite ingenious in thought. But I think for some, the rejection of social interactions can also trigger a resentment towards others to a great degree and cause even 'good' people to go 'bad'....especially by impulse.

But I stick to believing that it is a matter of gun controls that can help prevent the acts. If one is isolated as many mentally ill people are, they are also equally isolated, if not more so, from street dealers who might be able to provide them with illegal arms. As such, any laws that discourage officially mentally ill people from obtaining guns would be more likely effective.


good story / link - alcohol stands out as a factor .

oh and being under 30 , unemployed , white , male .
so these people should not be allowed access to guns . and minorities should be supplied with assault weapons and training to defend themselves against crazy racist losers . kind of like what the USA is doing in the middle east
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Scott Mayers » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:15 pm

Yeah, that was a good article. I think that domestic and cultural issues, as part of that 'broad' perspective, would be the best way to attack the concerns of any gun violence from the perspective of the individuals. Gun controls would be still the first step since change in culture/family are less easy to cure socially.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:14 am


A shotgun-toting maniac opened fire....

...The gunman unleashed a hail of bullets....

Shotguns fire bullets now? Where can I buy some of those?
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:29 am

Gord wrote:

A shotgun-toting maniac opened fire....

...The gunman unleashed a hail of bullets....

Shotguns fire bullets now? Where can I buy some of those?

How many do you need? I can ship you a few boxes.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:00 am

Those be slugs no? But surely not bullets...

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gord » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Yeah, I've got slugs.

If those are what he was firing, I'm impressed he hit so many people without killing anyone.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:38 pm

Tiny bullets. And a bunch all at the same time. And not all in exactly the same direction.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:46 pm

TJrandom wrote:Those be slugs no? But surely not bullets...

Tell me the difference, please?
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:56 pm

JO 753 wrote:Tiny bullets. And a bunch all at the same time. And not all in exactly the same direction.


Ah - those be pellets, no?

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:03 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Those be slugs no? But surely not bullets...

Tell me the difference, please?


Bullets be fired from rifles, handguns, and sometimes mouths or keyboards.... (as are some missiles :roll: )

Pellets and slugs be fired from shotguns.... (and some slugs are on the menu..., maybe for Gord) Also, my impression is that slugs are more roundy, and bullets are more pointy…. (and if all else fails, they are what I say they are… ;) )

Please correct me if my education has been flawed....

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:07 pm

Here lies Les Moore,
Four slugs from a .44
No Les, No Moore.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:03 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Here lies Les Moore,
Four slugs from a .44
No Les, No Moore.


OK - so to be bullets, ya need the full Monty - jacket, propellant, and erm, weasel... ah, slug. And once fired and appropriately deformed, ya got a slug even if fired from a handgun or rifle. Closer, or are you going to go all poetic again?

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:32 pm

No, no, no. Amateurs call the whole cartridge a "bullet", but it's not. The thing that hurts is a bullet/slug. The round (or cartridge) consists of bullet, powder, casing and primer.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby scrmbldggs » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:09 am

And sometimes crimping.



OK OK, I'm limping away already... :-P
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:18 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:No, no, no. Amateurs call the whole cartridge a "bullet", but it's not. The thing that hurts is a bullet/slug. The round (or cartridge) consists of bullet, powder, casing and primer.


And with that, I`ll say no more.... slinks away..... :oops:

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Frank Hoffman » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:39 am

Scott Mayers wrote:Mental illness is just as often those who simply appear awkward or odd in ways that make the majority of others avoid them socially. But such social treatment, regardless of any essential brain damage, can make many become less sane. Isolated and rejected...

True. I have had personal contact with a number of individuals who would be considered to have a mental illness but who are of less danger to other people than "normal" people are. They are gentle, thoughtful, compassionate and both a challenge a joy to interact with.

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:40 am

Distasteful as it was, I just spent an hour or so perusing the NRA site – news, store, commenters, etc. – and yet not a word on Roof. It didn`t happen, they don`t care, or maybe they are still working on their talking points... At least they didn`t carry the confederate flag in their online store….

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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:28 am

Frank Hoffman wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:Mental illness is just as often those who simply appear awkward or odd in ways that make the majority of others avoid them socially. But such social treatment, regardless of any essential brain damage, can make many become less sane. Isolated and rejected...

True. I have had personal contact with a number of individuals who would be considered to have a mental illness but who are of less danger to other people than "normal" people are. They are gentle, thoughtful, compassionate and both a challenge a joy to interact with.

Dr. Who fans, for instance.
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:27 pm

TJrandom wrote:...maybe they are still working on their talking points...


'How about a good guy with a better gun?' 'Ye! I like it! Gets them buying agen if they alredy hav a gun!' 'OK, run it thru demografics 1st; they may want to tweek it.'
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Gord
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:05 am

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Those be slugs no? But surely not bullets...

Tell me the difference, please?

I dunno. Composition? Mass? Ballistics? I thought a slug had to have a particular shape if it's intended to go any distance because shotguns don't have rifling, for instance.

But what do I know? I was taught that you point a shotgun rather than aim it. Then I met my high school friend, who had a sight added to his shotgun specifically so he could aim it.

Is it just convention that we use slugs in shotguns and bullets in other firearms? And if it is, then do we fire bullets from shotguns now, or do we still fire slugs?
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Scott Mayers
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Re: Dylann Roof and gun control

Postby Scott Mayers » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:31 am

You fire "shot" in shotguns, not slugs. "Slugs" are actually archaic as they were literal single pieces of metal and required prepping the rifle with gunpowder before hand. These would have 'rifling'.

Note that in my military training, we were condemned for calling our rifles, "guns", as these are considered hand-held weapons only.
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