Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Duck and cover

Choose one of the following:

Poll ended at Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:02 pm

I would feel safer moving to a neighborhood where nobody was allowed to own a gun.
8
67%
I would feel safer moving to a neighborhood where I could have a gun for my own protection.
2
17%
I'm not sure.
2
17%
 
Total votes: 12

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:05 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:The US Supreme Court has recently ruled twice that the Second Amendment is an individual right, not a militia right.

that exactly why I said.........EVENTUALLY.

For the Court to change its ruling there must be a change in the historical facts upon which the ruling was based. What historical facts from the 18th century are you suggesting will be different "eventually"?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:Your claim about the original intent is factually incorrect.

again... you miss entirely what will EVENTUALLY happen and the rational that will most likely be used.

You made a factually incorrect claim about the "original intent" of the authors of the Second Amendment. Regardless what happens in the future, that "original intent" will still be the same.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:The Second Amendment was not tied to the technology of the period . . .

Correct. Thats why I said..... EVENTUALLY.

What might happen "eventually" will not change what happened in the 18th century. You said you did not understand something and I attempted to help you understand. If you wish further help, just ask.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:31 am

"I don't understand..." //// is a well understood colloquialism.
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:35 am

Sorry I missed your other points:

1. "For the Court to change its ruling there must be a change in the historical facts upon which the ruling was based. What historical facts from the 18th century are you suggesting will be different "eventually"? /// Public opinion on the subject leads to the Presedent appointing pro gun change judges==just like the right would like to do now over the abortion issue. Its PEOPLE.....all the way down.

2. "You made a factually incorrect claim about the "original intent" of the authors of the Second Amendment. Regardless what happens in the future, that "original intent" will still be the same. /// Sure....and just as every time the supreme court changes direction, that original intent will be reinterpreted. Where ya been?
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:57 am

Yawn. I've asked countless people what they would do if an Amendment was passed to make private ownership of guns illegal. The uniform response was "ignore it" (with long winded rationalizations from some of them.)

So, please, don't bring up the Constitution when you're talking about "gun rights", it's only relevant to the gunners if it's in their favor. Otherwise it's just Chamberlain standing at the airport waving a scrap of paper.
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:19 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Yawn. I've asked countless people what they would do if an Amendment was passed to make private ownership of guns illegal. The uniform response was "ignore it" (with long winded rationalizations from some of them.)

So, please, don't bring up the Constitution when you're talking about "gun rights", it's only relevant to the gunners if it's in their favor. Otherwise it's just Chamberlain standing at the airport waving a scrap of paper.

If the majority vote to take your liver — to violate your right to self-sovereignty — you're fine with that?

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights do not "grant" rights and thus cannot take them away. The Bill of Rights acknowledges that such rights are pre-existing and prohibits the government from infringing those rights. Amending the Constitution to allow the government to violate those rights is not the same as taking them away. Some people might see that as a semantic quibble, but in fact it is a deep and fundamental ethical distinction.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:27 pm

Some people might see that as a semantic quibble, but in fact it is a deep and fundamental ethical distinction. /// Too bad it simply and objectively not true. Just rhetoric. The founding fathers sat in a room and hashed out what all our pre-existing rights were. Some didn't make the list. Then the entire list was voted on. Some states voted against it.

Nothing is a given. All is created by the notions of a thinking emotional creature. Get real.

I think you applied the analogy in reverse. People want their guns regardless of what the Constitution says. Just like our livers.
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:43 pm

The original intent was to allow people to keep guns in case of raids by Indians, pirates, or other bad guys, like the French. The rifle you used to hunt food would also help protect the community as a whole when you mustered up for an emergency militia call-out. There was no intent to make people's toys sacred.
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:25 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I think you applied the analogy in reverse. People want their guns regardless of what the Constitution says. Just like our livers.

That's what I was trying to say. Thank you for asking me to clarify what I meant. The Constitution (and Bill of rights) is a formal acknowledgement of rights that already existed long before the Constitution was written. The Constitution was intended to define what the government  can and cannot do, not what the people  can and cannot do. Sorry if I was not sufficiently clear on that point in my previous reply.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
xouper wrote:Some people might see that as a semantic quibble, but in fact it is a deep and fundamental ethical distinction.

Too bad it simply and objectively not true. Just rhetoric.

You are mistaken. I have argued this point in great length in other threads on the forum. If you want to participate in those discussions, I can give you some links and you can go post your opinions there instead of sidetracking this thread.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The founding fathers sat in a room and hashed out what all our pre-existing rights were. Some didn't make the list. Then the entire list was voted on. Some states voted against it.

That's more or less my understanding as well. With two major clarifications.

1. The Ninth Amendment contains all the rights that did not make the list. The explicit purpose of the Ninth Amendment was to counter the objection (by some) that if a right was not listed, then that would (mistakenly) be taken as implied permission to violate that right.

2. The vote was not about whether the people have those rights. The vote was about whether that list of rights should be formally added to the Constitution.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nothing is a given. All is created by the notions of a thinking emotional creature.

I did not claim otherwise. That fact does not in any way undermine my position.

For example, my right to self-sovereignty is not open to a vote. I have that right regardless what anyone else thinks. What you seem to be arguing is that if the majority vote that you do not own your liver, then you have no ethical basis for refusing to give your liver if they come to take it. Is that your position?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Get real.

Please, let's play nice, even if sometimes we do not agree.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:35 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:The original intent was to allow people to keep guns in case of raids by Indians, pirates, or other bad guys, like the French. The rifle you used to hunt food would also help protect the community as a whole when you mustered up for an emergency militia call-out.

I agree. That is my understanding as well. You forgot to also explicitly mention self defense in general, but that may be because you like to argue that guns cannot be used for personal self defense, despite the mountain of evidence I have posted on this forum to refute your assertion.

Gawdzilla Sama wrote: There was no intent to make people's toys sacred.

Taken literally, that is true. I do not claim that guns are sacred, nor do I claim that the right to keep and bear arms is in any way sacred. Perhaps there are some who do argue that, but I am not one of them, and neither is the Supreme Court, which has correctly ruled (twice recently) that the Second Amendment is an individual right, not a militia right.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:52 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"I don't understand..." //// is a well understood colloquialism.

I suspected that was your intention. I have used that colloquialism many times myself.

I intentionally ignored your colloquial usage in an attempt to play nice instead of beating you over the head for your implied (and mistaken) assertion that the Second Amendment was only intended to apply to the technology of the day. That is clearly not the case for the First Amendment, and is also not the case for the Second. That's why I chose to interpret your colloquial usage the way I did. It was not from ignorance, but from a deliberate attempt to be civil.

The problem with using such a colloquialism is that you can no longer use it when you want to explicitly express a lack of knowledge. Language is a funny thing sometimes, and ambiguity creeps in almost everywhere, especially on an internet forum. I assume I'm not saying anything you do not already know.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:02 pm

With all of us knowing everything already, I don't understand how we disagree so much.

With this appreciation for subtlety and the fine shades of meaning that language can draw out, I don't understand how you confuse how the Second Amendment is CURRENTLY interpreted with how it COULD BE interpreted should the SC EVENTUALLY decide to take another direction. It was the whole discussion, perhaps you read too fast?

I think its more appropriate to be civil while incorporating all colloquialisms. One does not deny the other.
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:55 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:. . . I don't understand how . . .

Is that another colloquial usage?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:. . . you confuse how the Second Amendment is CURRENTLY interpreted with how it COULD BE interpreted should the SC EVENTUALLY decide to take another direction.

I don't confuse them. I simply disagree with your opinion on the matter.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:13 am

Ummmmm.... you can't disagree with a hypothetical or a conjecture of the type made.

Are you that rigid...or lazy ... or stuck in a rut?
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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby JO 753 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:18 am

Gubmint for us
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not the rich.

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Re: Americans Prefer Living in Neighborhoods With Guns

Postby xouper » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:08 pm

Speaking of Texas, you might enjoy this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt7FDTpzGvo


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