The Upside uv Gunz

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 16, 2015 6:55 pm

Herez a point I dont think the gun nuts emfisize enuf.

If you hav an enemy and he attacks you, pepper spray, tazer, or any other way uv fending him off that duznt kill him usually wont prevent a future attack. Its very likely to actually make him even angrier and he will be prepared for the defens you uzed or will escalate the conflict to a gun himself. Your chansez uv getting killed go up.

If you shoot him ded, the conflict iz over. You wont be constantly on gard.

Uv course, there can be all sorts uv troubl if you cant prove self defens, or if he haz frendz andor relativz who may seek venjens, but you at least wun for a wile. Liv to fite another day'.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Fri May 22, 2015 6:21 pm

Herez a big point that may offer sum credence to xouperz unspesified 'other cauze' nontheory: We are a warrior nation.

Its not a PC karakteriziation, but The United States uv America iz arguably the greatest warrior nation in history. We place our soldierz above ordinary sitizenz ( unless you ask the disabled homeless vets ), call them heroz, make moviez about them. Our military spending iz way beyond any other nationz. A major % uv our R&D is about weponz and related tek.

So, having a sitizenry thats intimately familiar with gunz iz to be expected. Raizing kidz with gunz az a natural part uv their envirment iz very helpful to the interest uv turning them into soldierz. It woud be kinda silly to hav warriorz that are even a little shy uv their main wepon.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri May 22, 2015 7:01 pm

guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree...
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Fri May 22, 2015 7:57 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree...

I would like to see you say that to this girl:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/two_detroit_residents_charged.html

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl used the shotgun she normally keeps to go hunting with her father to scare off a robber in her home, police said.

The girl was alone at her North Branch Township home on Five Lakes Road about 3:45 p.m. on Jan. 30 when police said she surprised burglars who had broken into the house.

The girl hid in a bathroom closet, where she grabbed her shotgun that police said she stores in a gun safe.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the girl -- whose parents were due home from work a short time later -- pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

... Lapeer County Sheriff Detective Sgt. Jason Parks ... praised the girl's responsibility, poise and composure.

I'd like to see how you plan to explain to this girl that having a gun is a way to assure herself that she's a "man", blah blah blah. If not for her gun, there's a very real possibility she might not be alive to be insulted by your sarcasm and mockery.

Monk, your comment is a sick insult to all responsible law abiding women who own guns. Perhaps that says something about your own character.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Fri May 22, 2015 8:08 pm

Why do you keep uzing the same story wen there are suppozedly millionz uv storyz available?
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Fri May 22, 2015 9:57 pm

JO 753 wrote:Why do you keep uzing the same story wen there are suppozedly millionz uv storyz available?

It's my favorite. It works. And it's easy to cut and paste. And maybe -- just maybe -- by repeating it often enough, certain people will remember it before they post something stupid. The fact that I have to keep posting it is prima facie evidence that someone is not paying attention.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 23, 2015 6:38 am

Duznt work kuz any story with similar elements in wich the rezult went the other way canselz it out. For every good story you got we can counter with at least 5 bad storyz.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sat May 23, 2015 9:02 am

JO 753 wrote:Duznt work kuz any story with similar elements in wich the rezult went the other way canselz it out.

Wrong. That's not how it works for the kind of argument Monk made.

Let me demonstrate the fallacy in your objection. If someone makes a categorical claim that all crows are black, then all I need to do to refute that claim is to show one example of a crow that is not black.

My rebuttal is not "cancelled out" by you showing an example of a black crow. That is the flaw in your objection.

Here again is what Monk said:

ElectricMonk wrote:guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree

There is no qualifier in that comment and thus it is a categorical claim about all gun owners, and as such can be refuted with a single example. Monk was clearly trying to disparage all gun owners with a categorical claim that one of their motives for owning a gun is to compensate for some alleged character defect.

I only need to show one example of a gun owner who does not have that motive. And I did. That's all it takes to refute Monk's categorical claim.

Sure, you could show an example of a male who has that motive, but your example does not "cancel out" my example. Just as showing a black crow does not "cancel out" my white crow.

Sorry, JO, but your objection is not valid.

Despite that Monk did not include any qualifiers in his comment, you might be tempted to object that Monk meant only that "some" gun owners have that motive, in which case his comment becomes essentially a toothless insult. It seems entirely plausible that there might be a few gun owners who have that motive. But so what. If you argue that Monk meant "some" and not "all" gun owners, then you have taken the wind out of his sails. Or, if you argue the Monk meant "most" gun owners, then he now has the burden of providing evidence for his claim, which I am willing to wager he does not have, and is thus guilty of making an unsupportable slur upon gun owners. Either way, Monk's attempted insult is exposed for the rubbish it is.

JO 753 wrote:For every good story you got we can counter with at least 5 bad storyz.

That is factually incorrect. I have already posted evidence from the CDC that contradicts your claim. Where is your evidence that bad uses of a gun are five times more common than good uses? And don't bother citing google hits, since that method is already known to be invalid.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Sorry. I failed to notice that your post wuz a respons to Electric Monk.

ElectricMonk wrote:
guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree

There is no qualifier in that comment and thus it is a categorical claim about all gun owners


"are a handy way to assure yourself" iz a perfectly cromulant statement, requiring no qualitation. It duznt exclude other methodz or nesuserily encompass all gun ownerz.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sat May 23, 2015 6:22 pm

JO 753 wrote:Sorry. I failed to notice that your post wuz a respons to Electric Monk.

xouper wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree

There is no qualifier in that comment and thus it is a categorical claim about all gun owners

"are a handy way to assure yourself" iz a perfectly cromulant statement, requiring no qualitation. It duznt exclude other methodz or nesuserily encompass all gun ownerz.

You are correct that it doesn't exclude other motives or methods. Not did I suggest that it did. In fact, I specifically allowed for other possibilities when I said it was "one of their motives for owning a gun". I never said it was the only one.

JO 753 wrote: or nesuserily encompass all gun ownerz.

Wrong. When there are no qualifiers in a categorical claim -- which is what Monk's claim is -- then by default, it means "all". If that is not what Monk meant, then he must include a qualifier such as "some" or "most". Perhaps he will clarify what he meant to say.

Example, if I say "Dogs are mammals" the default is that I mean "all" dogs. If that is not what I meant, then I need to include a qualifier.

Regardless, since I disemboweled all three possibilities, it doesn't even matter which one of the three he meant.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 23, 2015 10:16 pm

No. You hav taken an unreazonable perspectiv. The statement iz advise offered specificly (yourself) to the reader, not a general statement about a group.

By your interpretation 'the awl iz a handy way to mark a point to drill a hole, even if you dont hav a tape measure and chalk" woud mean 'all carpenterz are pencil dick wimps'.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun May 24, 2015 7:24 am

JO 753 wrote:No. You hav taken an unreazonable perspectiv. The statement iz advise offered specificly (yourself) to the reader, not a general statement about a group.

By your interpretation 'the awl iz a handy way to mark a point to drill a hole, even if you dont hav a tape measure and chalk" woud mean 'all carpenterz are pencil dick wimps'.

OK, let's suppose you are correct. Let's start over.

ElectricMonk wrote:guns are a handy way to assure yourself that you are 'a Man', even if you can't find a girl that would agree

You are saying Monk is merely making a claim about how a gun can be used. Is that a fair interpretation?

Perhaps it can be used that way. However, none of the gun owners I know personally use it that way.

Is Monk suggesting that anyone actually uses a gun that way?

This being a skeptic forum, it is legitimate to ask, where is Monk's evidence that anyone at all uses a gun that way?

I suppose it's possible to find a few, but then, so what. What exactly is Monk attempting to accomplish by making such a comment? Is he attempting to belittle gun owners on this forum, such as Gawdzilla?

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 24, 2015 6:06 pm

Its not a use, its an inate benefit uv ownership requiring no effort.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun May 24, 2015 6:13 pm

:roll:

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby toroid » Sun May 24, 2015 7:33 pm

Wy dew u rit az if u wer a compleet idgit. Ther gotta' be a reel smart rezun! I kan evenchaly fiiger yor meenin, but ushally chews not to reed yer posts.

Ijits iz a gud reezon for gunz. gunz sav ijits livs or kill ijits, depenz on wether there gud or bad ijits.

I lik gud stoopid or smart peepul, butt no bad peepul. Nuff sed!

JO 753 wrote:I'v been waiting for the gun proponents here and elsewhere on the interweb to bring up the good arguments. Being an opponent, I never hav even tho I know them. I wuz hoping maybe sum media opinionator woud, and maybe, with so many millionz uv ownerz and dedicated & prezumably intellijent policy makerz cojitating on the matter, theyd kum up with sumthing I never thot uv.

But no.

The entire gun nut community haz prodused nothing supportable exept 'we like gunz'. Everything else haz been debunkt, disprooven, dispelled and dezervedly derided many timez by me and many otherz.

So I'm going to help you out here.

At the very least, it will be more ingredients to stir into the stew youv been churning for decadez.

1. Population control.

If you calculate from 1900 to now, there would potentially be many millionz more hungry mouths to feed in America if gunz had not been available to kill off their share uv the population. Thats about 5 jenerationz and all the offspring that didnt happen. It includez adults who got shot befor they woud hav died from other cauzez, adults who alredy reprodused, but coud hav made more babyz, adults who didnt reproduse, and offspring frum -.75 to approximately 17 yirz.

Hard to say with any presision how many more peeps woud be here now, but more than too many iz obviously not a good thing. We are hurting with 350,000,000 so 400 or 450 million woud be a nitemare. It woud be like India here, all other thingz being the same.

2. Increased averaje intellijens. Gun deths skew to the left side uv the bell curve. I offer no direct stats to back this up. Just look at the newz storyz and the youtube idiots. Look at the well known gun proponents, like Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent. Clearly idiots and the stats proov that owning a gun increasez your chansez uv getting shot. So, not only iz the population lower thanks to gunz, but the culling iz being dun at the naturally proper end uv the spectrum. Gunz & stupid are a dedly mix, and stupid tendz to like gunz.

3. Advansing the siens uv trauma care.

Without a reliable stream uv gunshot victimz flowing thru the sivilian helthcare system for the last century, our ability to deal with massive penetration woundz woud sertainly be less well developed. The sporadic opportunity uv war and the stedily declining fatalityz during war, along with the battlefield conditionz provide very little case material required for R&D. Our wounded soldierz are directly benefitting from the daily flow uv gunshot victimz into emerjensy wardz. Wut woud hav been fatal just 20 yirz ago iz now quite survivable.

4. Jeneral teknolojikl advansment.

Pretty much any product catagory that sellz well leadz to improving teknolojy, but weponry seemz to inspire inventorz more than just about anything else. The only possible ekseption I can think uv iz carz. Sure, computerz & fonez are popping now, but they got a few duzen senturyz uv injinuity to catch up to. If you want to debate this point, consider how much uv the electronic, kemikal, material, etc tek orijinated with the military and later spun off or trickled down to sivilian products.

OK. Therez 4 good arguments in favor uv gunz. Feel free to uze them az you pleez or try to strike them down.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 24, 2015 7:49 pm

http://www.nooalf.com/plaintext.htm

RED xaT. XeN IF YR STIL xINKING iM XE IJIT, RED XIS: http://www.nooalf.com/aNTiREFORMDEBUNK.html
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby toroid » Sun May 24, 2015 8:03 pm

OIC. Bummer.

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun May 24, 2015 8:30 pm

JO 753 wrote:http://www.nooalf.com/plaintext.htm

RED xaT. XeN IF YR STIL xINKING iM XE IJIT, RED XIS: http://www.nooalf.com/aNTiREFORMDEBUNK.html

JO, why don't you use full nooalf in all your posts?

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 24, 2015 8:52 pm

Kuz humanz are lazy & apathetic. And, az I mention on the site, its a waste uv time trying to convert literate adults.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby xouper » Sun May 24, 2015 9:09 pm

JO 753 wrote:Kuz humanz are lazy & apathetic. And, az I mention on the site, its a waste uv time trying to convert literate adults.

Then why not use English instead of bastardized nooalf?

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 25, 2015 1:20 am

The purpose uv this casual fonetisization iz to wear out the spelling cop reziding in the brainz uv the readerz and provide a hint uv the level uv disorganization they are living with.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby Poodle » Mon May 25, 2015 1:35 am

JO 753 wrote:Kuz humanz are lazy & apathetic. And, az I mention on the site, its a waste uv time trying to convert literate sensible adults.


FIFY :D

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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Mon May 25, 2015 9:50 am

Thats true also, but for a different reazon. Sensibl adults are so rare that finding them takes too much effort and the total effect az a % uv the population iz virtually zero.

Take this place for exampl.

I think most uv the memberz uv this forum are way above averaj in sensibility, and look at the respons I'v gotten. Even the few who agree with the reazoning behind Nooalf hav no interest in helping, even tho its obviously the 1st step in effecting a pozitiv chanje in future jenerationz attitudez about siens and lojik.

The only sensibl explanation for this failure iz that they like it this way. All they really want to do iz scoff at idiots.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:15 pm

Reazon # 11

Most gunshot fatality victimz never got old! Like majik, they didnt suffer the ravajez uv ajing.

They never hav to worry about arthritis, osteoporosis, hemeroidz, lumbago, alzhiemerz, vericos vienz, gloucoma, gray hair, baldness, cataracts, sagging boobz, sagging moobz, rinkled fase, erectile disfunction, heart attacks, strokes, failing kidneyz, diabetes, thoze weird skin growths that you wonder why they dont just slise off, 1/4" thick yellow & green toe nailz, defnes, hair growing out uv their earz. Just to name a few.

They also dont need to worry about all the financial difficultyz uv ajing. Trying to stay within a bujit that will not deplete the 401K before they croak from natural cauzez, avoiding getting scammed out uv there savingz, like that lady I saw on Dr. Phil yesterday, if the republicanz are going to take away there SS payments, trying to figure out wich uv their louzy ingrate children dezervz a plase in the will. Then therez the weird freak grandkidz with their noze ringz and devil tatooz! Better to find a gold digger for your last 5!

Then therez the expens to society! No minor consideration there! Really old folks account for a disproportionate amount uv the national health care bill. Way more than the expens jenerated by gunz.

Yes, getting sniped on your way to work wen youre 40, 45 iz the best thing that can happen!
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:55 pm

@JO

pretty much the same reason people used to defend smoking: by dying earlier, smokers costs less in geriatric care than non-smokers.
They do, however, cost a lot in healthcare, as do gunshot victims. Since gunshot treatment can easily end up at more than $1 million, I think that guns do not make life cheaper....

So far, we have missed out the most important Upside of Guns: they increase shareholder value for the weapons manufactures and salaries of CEO's....
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:15 pm

Thats another wun! Thanks for #12.
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:56 pm

Orijinally posted in the 50 Dead in Florida topic:

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:1) We should use our limited resources to address bigger causes of death because that will save more lives;


Based on that statement, there shoud be many more hobbyz based on lethal hazardz. Squirt gunz that can shoot asid & poizon, all sorts uv traps, dressing up carz with spikes, sordz, sawz, etc like in Deth Rase 2000, electricution apparel like that guy in Running Man.

Much more interesting and fun than the same tired old BLAM! youre ded. Each uv theze fasinating hobbyz woud kill far fewer peepl than obesity, so they arent a problem. In fact (just thot uv this!) it woud help all the big killerz kuz everybody who diez from them will not die from the big killerz!

Just like now with so many American sitizenz getting shot, more peepl getting dizolved by asid = less peepl getting run over by carz. More peepl getting electricuted = less burger gobbling chest grabberz.

I coud make a lucrativ careeer inventing new hazardous hobbyz. I coud get a hefty fee from the AMA for everybody who diez who wuz on their way to coronary dezeez!
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:50 am

JO 753 wrote:Orijinally posted in the 50 Dead in Florida topic:

Venerable Kwan Tam Woo wrote:1) We should use our limited resources to address bigger causes of death because that will save more lives;


Based on that statement, there shoud be many more hobbyz based on lethal hazardz.


If you're going to offer up a non-sequitur, then could you at least offer up one that doesn't directly contradict the initial statement??
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Re: The Upside uv Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:06 am

It only seemz that way to you. Think harder and maybe youl get it.
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