Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:53 am

I tossed a coin to chooz wether to post this here or in xouperz 'examples of successful self defense' topic.
Gun Store Shootout over 25$

In good guy vs good guy contests, iz it the better guy who winz?
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:50 am

Yup – could`a gone anywhere….

The good…
A gun store will (probably) shut down
The gun under repair will probably never be returned
The guns used in the shootout will probably be confiscated and kept as evidence
The bad guys got shot

The bad…
The good guys got shot
We will probably never know who were the good guys and who were the bad guys
Two more gun deaths (to not be added to the NRA opposed keeping of government statistics on guns)

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:15 am

The problem is obviously not enough guns - the store should have had more and bigger guns, then nothing like this could have happened.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:37 am

If one assumes that the customers were the bad guys, then the good-guy gun store owner should have blown them away as they entered the store, or maybe just not accepted the weapon for repair. But if one assumes that the store owners were the bad guys, then the customers should have protected their right to free weapon repair by shooting first. But what if they were all bad guys – what then? And what if one of the shop employees was a good guy, and the other a bad guy – and the same for the customers? What then? Oh it boggles…

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:51 am

How about an NRA hotline to adjudicate such matterz?

Wen its NRA memberz in a dispute with each other, they coud call and get a ruling on who gets to win! Wayne LaPierre himself woud run the call sentr and be the final arbiter in difficult casez.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:02 am

JO 753 wrote:How about an NRA hotline to adjudicate such matterz?

Wen its NRA memberz in a dispute with each other, they coud call and get a ruling on who gets to win! Wayne LaPierre himself woud run the call sentr and be the final arbiter in difficult casez.


easy - the person who paid more membership dues is always the 'better' guy.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:29 am

ElectricMonk wrote:
JO 753 wrote:How about an NRA hotline to adjudicate such matterz?

Wen its NRA memberz in a dispute with each other, they coud call and get a ruling on who gets to win! Wayne LaPierre himself woud run the call sentr and be the final arbiter in difficult casez.


easy - the person who paid more membership dues is always the 'better' guy.


But surely they would look to see who joined and when? Longevity should count - no?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:32 am

TJrandom wrote:But surely they would look to see who joined and when? Longevity should count - no?



nope - cash only.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:41 am

The Voice contestant shot

We are not living in my idea uv a sivilized sosiety.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Aztexan » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:58 pm

My wife and stepdaughter loved that girl and were bawling last night when they heard the news. My stepdaughter asked me what we as a country are going to do about gun violence. I asked her if the shooter was Muslim. She said she didn't think so. I asked her if any boys tried to hide in the girls bathroom or girls in the boys bathroom once the shooting started. She asked what that had to do with anything. I said we couldn't have that because that would be horrible. Then I told her that as long as the shooter wasn't Muslim or people tried to hide in the bathroom that doesn't agree with their birth certificate, then there was no problem and she should get used to the fact that we live in a very violent country and gun violence is the American way of life. I also told her that the shooter's 2nd amendment right was more important than that poor girl's right to life and more important than her family, friends and fans right to enjoy her short time on this earth.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby nmblum88 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:54 pm

JO 753 wrote:The Voice contestant shot

We are not living in my idea uv a sivilized sosiety.


Hold that thought.
Last evening in Los Angeles, a 10 year old girl, walking to the store with her 7 year old sister was shot in the back of the head.
(I am told that appropriate photos of the blood stained sidewalk accompanied the televised news report.)

"She was not the intended target" said the police spokesman.
Apparently the bullet was meant for someone else standing or walking on the crowded sidewalk.

The 7 year old sister will have to live with the horror, and the terrors that go with a view of life as cruel and impermanent.

Her family will have to live with the consolation: their ten year old daughter was executed unjustly, guilty of no crime.


(Other perhaps than that of being poor and living in Boyle Heights, where gunshots are the soundtrack of people's lives.)

BUT…again, and again, and yet AGAIN: what to do about it?
Civilization, the civilized society, is a human construct.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:25 pm

I assume at the very same time....some "mass murder" (4 or more at a time) also took place as there are about 400 per year of those.

1. Unconditional Base Income
2. Increased social safety net sevices (school counselors and community counselors attacked to police)
3. Outlaw guns.

Easy. All you have to do is get people to recognize 1. Yes....we already raise that amount of money and more but spend it elsewhere, and 2. Your family is not safe from gun violence just because it hasn't happened yet or not often in your neighborhood.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:32 pm

xouper wrote:

Ouch.

I gotta ask, was the safety off? The article did not mention that detail.

Point of information: Many of today's handguns do not have a manual safety switch that must be disengaged before the gun can fire. Instead, they incorporate one or more other safety features to prevent the firearm from discharging unless the trigger is pulled fully to the rear. Or they depend on long heavy triggers to prevent negligent discharges.

I didn't see in the article cited what firearm was involved so one can't say whether the gun in question even had a safety.

I've seen and investigated the Flash-Bang brand of bra holsters while helping my wife find a concealment system that would work for her. I felt like they were a gimmick that didn't secure the gun in ways I felt were safe. Specifically, I didn't like that the kydex material was molded so far into the trigger guard that it contacts the trigger. Holsters are supposed to prevent contact with the trigger.

Image

I note that the Flash-Bang holster holds the pistol horizontal such that if the weapon were to fire the bullet would to the left or right of the wearer. If the woman shot herself in the eye, something was seriously wrong with how her pistol was holstered or secured.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:38 pm

JO 753 wrote:We are not living in my idea uv a sivilized sosiety.

You mean one free of violence and injustice? Of course not.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:53 pm

JO 753 wrote:I tossed a coin to chooz wether to post this here or in xouperz 'examples of successful self defense' topic.
Gun Store Shootout over 25$

In good guy vs good guy contests, iz it the better guy who winz?

In most jurisdictions, it doesn't count as self defense if the armed individual(s) escalated the conflict. You can't ramp up the confrontation with yelling and shoving and then claim self defense when the other party takes it a step further and you then decide to bring deadly force into the equation.

Investigators are still trying to determine if charges will be filed against the customers who came into the shop and started the conflict.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:35 pm

You pik showz an unplanned mastectomy waiting to happen.

The story for the Independens Day weekend wuz dad aksidently shoots teenaje son at gun ranje.

Frum CNN:
Because their parents keep guns in the home for self-defense, each of the seven Brumby children learned gun safety at an appropriate age, Clayton Brumby said.
"We wanted our kids to be aware of guns," he said. "I wanted them to be comfortable around them and understand them."


The family iz also activ church memberz. It duznt say anything about it in the article, but I woud be suprized if they arent good patriotic Obama hating republicanz.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:47 pm

JO 753 wrote:The story for the Independens Day weekend wuz dad aksidently shoots teenaje son at gun ranje.

Frum CNN:
Because their parents keep guns in the home for self-defense, each of the seven Brumby children learned gun safety at an appropriate age, Clayton Brumby said.
"We wanted our kids to be aware of guns," he said. "I wanted them to be comfortable around them and understand them."


The family iz also activ church memberz. It duznt say anything about it in the article, but I woud be suprized if they arent good patriotic Obama hating republicanz.

The article specifically cites what happened: "Clayton Brumby, 64, pulled the trigger while trying to fish a hot shell casing out of the back of his shirt, according to the Sarasota County Sheriff's Office."

I actively manage the risk of handling firearms by diligently following 4 rules. If any one of these rules are broken, the others should limit injury from any unintended discharge. Those rules are:

1) Treat all guns as though they are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Multiple safety rules were violated in order to make this tragedy happen. Mr. Brumby is correct when he concludes it is his fault. I have to wonder what exactly Mr. Brumby thought gun safety meant if he killed his son while attempting to teach gun safety.

I've seen people at the range ignore these safety rules. When I'm in a position to do so, I intervene and coach better safety. When I'm not in a position to intervene I go elsewhere.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:50 pm

JO 753 wrote:You pik showz an unplanned mastectomy waiting to happen.

If the holster effectively prevents access to the trigger by what mechanism do you suggest that such an event could happen?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:02 pm

The key word being 'if'.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:07 pm

The problem with your 4 rulez iz that they require eternal vijelens. Not a trait humanz are endowed with.

We've herd many storyz uv expert gun afficianadoz aksidently shooting themselvez or otherz. Its almost comical how quickly they are demoted to 'idiot' status by their fellow gun nuts.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Aztexan » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:21 pm

They are making that poor dead kid into some kind of martyr for the 2nd amendment. It's beyond disgusting. And they are profiting from it via a GoFundMe page.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:24 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
JO 753 wrote:You pik showz an unplanned mastectomy waiting to happen.

If the holster effectively prevents access to the trigger by what mechanism do you suggest that such an event could happen?


Erm... bouncy breasts? OK, really bouncy breasts? :lol:

(sorry, I just couldn`t resist....)

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:36 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:... Those rules are:

1) Treat all guns as though they are always loaded.
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


I have followed those rules myself as a hunter, and two more...

Never place your gun in a position such that it might be knocked over and fired by another person, your dog, an eathquake, etc.

and ...

Only load a gun when necessary to do so.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:56 pm

JO 753 wrote:The key word being 'if'.

Well, that would be required for the holster to qualify as a safe holster.

You can't just throw a loaded gun in a tube sock and call it safe.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:02 pm

JO 753 wrote:The problem with your 4 rulez iz that they require eternal vijelens. Not a trait humanz are endowed with.

Well... Not really eternal vigilance. Just constant vigilance when handling firearms.

Of course, that's not a problem with the rules. The rules are sound.

We apply similar systems whenever managing risk whether that's driving a car, running a chainsaw, or sending people into space.
JO 753 wrote:We've herd many storyz uv expert gun afficianadoz aksidently shooting themselvez or otherz. Its almost comical how quickly they are demoted to 'idiot' status by their fellow gun nuts.

It is the dangerous action that makes one an idiot. Any response from observers merely notes this.

Who claims that experience with firearms will prevent all forms of negligence?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:03 pm

Aztexan wrote:They are making that poor dead kid into some kind of martyr for the 2nd amendment. It's beyond disgusting. And they are profiting from it via a GoFundMe page.

That sounds interesting. Link?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Aztexan » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:40 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... sprint-us#

From the article:
"The gun didn't kill my boy. I did," he told CNN.


That statement, while very true, will be used to make the boy into a martyr for the pro-gun lobby.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Aztexan wrote:http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/accidental-shooting-at-high-noon-gun-shop-in-sarasota-leaves-1-victim-with-serious-injuries

The father accepts responsibility but his remarks are meant to show support for the 2nd amendment [...]

Is he not allowed to do both?

Aztexan wrote:But his statement will be used to strengthen the pro-gun enthusiasts instead of give ammunition (no pun intended) to the gun control crowd.

Does it have to be either of those absolutes?

Like plenty of things we humans do, firearms involve an inherent risk. Even when managed, stuff can go sideways. The way I see it the takeaway message is that one must be diligent when involved with risky activities.

I've not seen any data to support the claim, but I've been told that as a sport, horseback riding is riskier than the shooting sports. It is true that people die every day when their risk management systems fail or weren't in place to begin with. I think it is interesting that some of those deaths go unnoticed and others become a controversial issue that attracts a lot of attention.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Aztexan » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:53 pm

I apologize. I edited my original post to show an article with the father's quote.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:57 pm

Aztexan wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/07/04/us/florida-father-shoots-son/index.html?client=ms-android-sprint-us#

From the article:
"The gun didn't kill my boy. I did," he told CNN.


That statement, while very true, will be used to make the boy into a martyr for the pro-gun lobby.

How so? As a gun owner and avid recreational shooter I cannot fathom how this instance is promotional material other than as a bad example of what can happen if you fail to follow the safety rules. But sometimes I lack imagination, so I welcome any additional info.

Are there other instances where the gun lobby used an accidental gun death to promote their cause?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Aztexan » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:59 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
Aztexan wrote:http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/accidental-shooting-at-high-noon-gun-shop-in-sarasota-leaves-1-victim-with-serious-injuries

The father accepts responsibility but his remarks are meant to show support for the 2nd amendment [...]

Is he not allowed to do both?

Aztexan wrote:But his statement will be used to strengthen the pro-gun enthusiasts instead of give ammunition (no pun intended) to the gun control crowd.

Does it have to be either of those absolutes?

Like plenty of things we humans do, firearms involve an inherent risk. Even when managed, stuff can go sideways. The way I see it the takeaway message is that one must be diligent when involved with risky activities.

I've not seen any data to support the claim, but I've been told that as a sport, horseback riding is riskier than the shooting sports. It is true that people die every day when their risk management systems fail or weren't in place to begin with. I think it is interesting that some of those deaths go unnoticed and others become a controversial issue that attracts a lot of attention.


As an American, he is free to continue to support our 2nd amendment right. And I agree %100 with your takeaway message. But it's sad that in these days where gun violence and easy accessibility are at the forefront of our national conversation, he still had to learn the hard way that guns and gun safety are not to be taken lightly.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:07 am

You are a good exampl uv a major flaw in the pro gun filosofy, Blacksamwell.

You may be jenerally competent enuf to be 'safe' with a gun, but wut about the next guy?

Shoud I trust that absolutely every gun owner haz been properly vetted to be az competent az you by the authorityz az I stand in the checkout line at the grosery store, eat lunch at Arby'z, drive thru populated areaz?

No, kuz they are not. There iz no vetting going on.

Dumass cowboy 3 football fieldz away from me coud be fumbling with hiz stoopid car key belt retractor next to hiz holster and OOOPS! snagged the trigger with the chain & JO iz ded.

And even if everybody wuz on your level, its alwayz just the oddz on a timeline till sumthing goez rong.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:16 pm

JO 753 wrote:You are a good exampl uv a major flaw in the pro gun filosofy, Blacksamwell.

You may be jenerally competent enuf to be 'safe' with a gun, but wut about the next guy?

Shoud I trust that absolutely every gun owner haz been properly vetted to be az competent az you by the authorityz az I stand in the checkout line at the grosery store, eat lunch at Arby'z, drive thru populated areaz?

No, kuz they are not. There iz no vetting going on.

Dumass cowboy 3 football fieldz away from me coud be fumbling with hiz stoopid car key belt retractor next to hiz holster and OOOPS! snagged the trigger with the chain & JO iz ded.

And even if everybody wuz on your level, its alwayz just the oddz on a timeline till sumthing goez rong.

Doesn't this logic apply to ALL activities that involve risk to yourself and others?

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Blacksamwell » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:21 pm

JO 753 wrote:You are a good exampl uv a major flaw in the pro gun filosofy, Blacksamwell.

You may be jenerally competent enuf to be 'safe' with a gun, but wut about the next guy?

Shoud I trust that absolutely every gun owner haz been properly vetted to be az competent az you by the authorityz az I stand in the checkout line at the grosery store, eat lunch at Arby'z, drive thru populated areaz?

No, kuz they are not. There iz no vetting going on.

Exactly what vetting do you think I've had? Yet you sound like you've judged me to be competent.

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:39 pm

I'm only agreeing that you are for the sake uv argument. Az I rote, there iz no vetting in the U.S., but I don t no where in the world you are.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:48 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:Doesn't this logic apply to ALL activities that involve risk to yourself and others?


There arent many activityz that poze a risk uv deth from a great distans. Aside frum gunz and arrowz, the only thingz I can think uv are kemical factoryz, other factoryz that uze hazardous kemicalz and nuclear power plants.

Altho individualz can conseivably acquire hazardous substansez and create poizonous cloudz in the kitchen up wind uv me, its probably not that eazy to get that kind uv stuff and its just not happening all the time like gun insidents are.
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Flash » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:29 pm

JO 753 wrote:
There arent many activityz that poze a risk uv deth from a great distans. Aside frum gunz and arrowz, the only thingz I can think uv are kemical factoryz, other factoryz that uze hazardous kemicalz and nuclear power plants.

Also...the blue ice aka the frozen turd falling from the planes. There is more, meteorites, nearby supernovas, and your neighbour cleaning his gun on the porch which he insists is "not loaded".
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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:28 pm

Flash wrote:JO 753 wrote:
There arent many activityz that poze a risk uv deth from a great distans. Aside frum gunz and arrowz, the only thingz I can think uv are kemical factoryz, other factoryz that uze hazardous kemicalz and nuclear power plants.

Also...the blue ice aka the frozen turd falling from the planes. There is more, meteorites, nearby supernovas, and your neighbour cleaning his gun on the porch which he insists is "not loaded".


Lightning...

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:07 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Flash wrote:JO 753 wrote:
There arent many activityz that poze a risk uv deth from a great distans. Aside frum gunz and arrowz, the only thingz I can think uv are kemical factoryz, other factoryz that uze hazardous kemicalz and nuclear power plants.

Also...the blue ice aka the frozen turd falling from the planes. There is more, meteorites, nearby supernovas, and your neighbour cleaning his gun on the porch which he insists is "not loaded".


Lightning...

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Re: Examplz uv Unfortunate Events Involving Gunz

Postby TJrandom » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:17 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Flash wrote:JO 753 wrote:
There arent many activityz that poze a risk uv deth from a great distans. Aside frum gunz and arrowz, the only thingz I can think uv are kemical factoryz, other factoryz that uze hazardous kemicalz and nuclear power plants.

Also...the blue ice aka the frozen turd falling from the planes. There is more, meteorites, nearby supernovas, and your neighbour cleaning his gun on the porch which he insists is "not loaded".


Lightning...

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