Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Duck and cover
User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:42 am

xouper wrote:I am not interested in paying into a system that pays full price to buy back guns from people who no longer want them.


Its much cheaper than the alternativ.

Another interesting conjecture not supported by any evidence.


Its all conjecture. There iz no evidens sins it hazent been tried yet.

Like anything new, its based only on lojik.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:07 am

TJrandom wrote:IMO – your right to life should be no greater than the right to life of the person you have presumed to be a bad guy.


Suppoze you hav a gun and a guy iz attempting to jab your eye out with an ice pick. He sed thats wut hez going to do and that he thinks youre too wussy to shoot him.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:01 pm

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:I am not interested in paying into a system that pays full price to buy back guns from people who no longer want them.

Its much cheaper than the alternativ.

So you say. I am skeptical of your claim.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Another interesting conjecture not supported by any evidence.

Its all conjecture. There iz no evidens sins it hazent been tried yet. Like anything new, its based only on lojik.

No argument is based only on logic, not even in mathematics. There are always some starting assumptions. And in your proposals (conjectures), the pile of assumptions is big and controversial.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:28 am

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/02/homeowner-shoots-man-during-attempted-home-invasion/28386901/

Homeowner shoots man during attempted home invasion
Jason Whitely, WFAA 9:54 p.m. CDT June 2, 2015

An Ellis County woman shot and injured a man she believed was trying to knock down her back door on Tuesday afternoon, according to the sheriff's office.

... "The suspect knocked on the front door, attempted to make contact with someone on the front door, and then went around to the back door and started trying to knock the back door in," explained Lt. James Saulter.

"As he was making entry, the homeowner started shooting rounds through the door," Saulter added. "Evidence shows it was definitely a burglary."

... "As soon as we know something's going on, we're coming, but our sheriff is very adamant letting homeowners know you have a right to take care of yourself on your property," Saulter said.

Red added by me.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:37 am

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/detroit-woman-shoots-at-wouldbe-carjackers/33382756

Detroit woman shoots at would-be carjackers
Author: Rod Meloni, Local 4 Business Editor, @RodMeloni, Jun 03 2015

DETROIT - [Alma and Garnet Detroit] A woman fired shots would-be carjackers Tuesday as they demanded her to get out of the car.

... While making a u-turn three men approached her car and tried to take it. They went as far opening to the door and shooting at her. There are two bullet holes. However, the bold thieves learned they were messing with the wrong Detroiter.

"When I see him with the gun as he approached me to take the car, I lifted my gun up on the door and I began to shoot," said C.C. "So when he shot I was shooting back."

She keeps her gun -- .357 caliber Sig Sauer G2 -- in the side door of her vehicle. She has a concealed carry permit. It's her weapon of choice which she has trained with at area ranges.

... Police say she legally defended herself and, so far, it appears no one was hurt on the shooting.

Red added by me.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:42 am

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/06/03/police-homeowner-shot-and-killed-would-be-robber-in-berks-county/

Police: Robbery Plot Uncovered After Homeowner Fatally Shoots Suspect In Berks County
June 3, 2015 10:38 AM

BIRDSBORO, Pa. (CBS) – Police in Berks County say a homeowner shot a man he correctly surmised was trying to rob him.

On Monday, police responded to 12 Long Lane in Boyertown for reports of a man shot to death.

At the scene, they found 52-year-old Robert Stoudt, of Birdsboro, dead outside the residence.

An investigation revealed the homeowner, Andre Vernet, believed someone was at his door to rob him and shot the man before realizing he recognized the suspect.

Further investigation led police to uncover a robbery conspiracy plot formed by four people, including the deceased, to rob Vernet. ...

Red added by me.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:51 am

http://www.ktre.com/story/29229254/cent ... lf-defense

Center man shoots alleged attacker in 'clear case of self-defense'
Posted: Jun 03, 2015 8:51 AM PST, By Gary Bass

CENTER, TX (KTRE) - During an alleged assault that occurred at a storage unit business in Center on Tuesday, a man shot a 32-year-old illegal immigrant in the leg. Authorities believe the incident was a “clear case of self-defense.”

According to a press release, Center PD officers responded to a shot fired call at L and L Storage, which is located on Shelbyville Street.

When they arrived on the scene, they learned through eyewitness accounts and surveillance video that 59-year-old Lonnie Lawrence was assaulted by Jonny Aguilar Ventura, a 32-year-old illegal immigrant, the press release stated. During the course of the alleged assault, Lawrence was able to get to his gun, and he fired one shot at Ventura, hitting him in the leg.

Lawrence then held Ventura at bay until police officers got there. ...

Red added by me. Three things stand out in this example.

1. The police called it self defense. It is not my mere opinion. It's also on video.

2. The bad guy was not killed and thus is able to tell his side of the story.

3. The good guy could have continued to shoot and kill the bad guy, but he did not, thus proving he is not the stereotypical trigger-happy loon that some cartoonists and gun grabbers portray.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:00 am

http://www.cardschat.com/news/poker-player-shoots-robber-dead-justifiable-homicide-ruled-12166

Poker Player Shoots Robber Dead, Justifiable Homicide Ruled
June 4th, 2015 by Philip Conneller

A Michigan poker player who shot a man dead during a home game robbery will not face criminal charges, after a prosecutor ruled it was justifiable homicide this week.

Ramon Vasquez, 25, was killed during a masked home invasion in March 11, during which he and an accomplice, Jason McGowan, attempted to rob a home poker game in Saginaw County.

... The incident is just one of a spate of recent home game robberies across North America. ...

I had no idea playing poker in your own home was so dangerous. Maybe we should do background checks on all the players, and require a carry permit for a deck of poker cards.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:09 am

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/05/police-launch-death-investigation-following-two-separate-shootings/28538177/

Montgomery homeowner shoots, kills intruder
Rebecca Burylo, Montgomery Advertiser 1:51 p.m. CDT June 5, 2015

A home invasion early Friday morning has left one suspect dead after he was shot by the homeowner.

The unidentified male is believed to have been shot by the female homeowner during a home invasion, according to Lt. Denise Barnes of the Montgomery Police Department.

... "MPD's initial investigation indicates the homeowner fatally wounded an unknown male intruder who broke into her home at about 3:45 a.m.," Barnes said. ...

"Dirty Harry" Callahan: "If someone breaks into your house uninvited at 3:45 in the morning, I don’t assume he is there to collect for the Red Cross. I shoot the bastard. That's my policy."

No word yet if the police consider it a justifiable homicide.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:16 am

http://www.phillyvoice.com/off-duty-detective-shoots-kills-suspect-lawndale/

Off-duty detective shoots, kills suspect in Lawndale
June 05, 2015, By Michael Phillis

One suspect is dead and another is being sought by police after an attempted robbery of an off-duty plain-clothed Philadelphia detective at a Lawndale pizza parlor, police said.

According to police, two men entered Rising Sun Pizza late Thursday night and announced a robbery. One of the men placed a revolver at the head of the lone customer, an unidentified Philadelphia detective, and ordered him to the floor.

Police said the robbers stole $20 from the detective before turning their attention toward the restaurant’s two employees.

“That’s when the detective drew his firearm and identified himself as a police officer,” police officials said. One of the suspects then fired his weapon -- which turned out to be loaded only with blanks -- at the detective who shot back.

The detective was not injured but the suspected shooter was hit multiple times and later died. ...

If someone points a gun at your head and takes your money, that automatically makes him a bad guy. If the facts of the case are true as stated, can anyone here say the shooting was not justified?

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:18 am

http://tbo.com/news/crime/one-arrested-one-sought-after-fowler-ave-robbery-shooting-20150605/

Police: Suspect shot by victim during Shells robbery
Published: June 5, 2015 | Updated: June 6, 2015 at 03:15 PM

An armed robbery went awry outside a north Tampa restaurant Friday night when a victim shot a suspect in a leg, police said.

A second suspect turned himself in to authorities less than hour after the incident, police said.

The robbery occurred as a man and woman were leaving Shells, a seafood restaurant at 2101 E. Fowler Ave. The man has a concealed weapon permit and was armed.

Tampa police told media outlets that two juveniles, one with a gun drawn, approached the man and woman in the Shells parking lot and robbed them.

As the woman turned to run, one of the juveniles aimed the gun at her, police said. The male victim then drew his weapon and shot the armed juvenile in a leg, police said. ...

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:22 am

http://www.click2houston.com/news/woman-fights-back-shoots-robber-in-crosby/33433158

Woman fights back, shoots robber in Crosby
Author: Kayla Ayres, Reporter, Published On: Jun 05 2015 10:30:24 PM CDT

CROSBY, Texas - Sheriff's deputies said a would-be robbery victim shot the man who was attempting to steal her purse at a gas station in Crosby.

The Harris County Sheriff's Office says a woman was sitting in the driver's seat of her vehicle at the Exxon station on FM 2100 before 6 p.m. Friday. Deputies say a male suspect got into the passenger side of her vehicle, pulled a knife and demanded her money and purse.

According to the Sheriff's Office, she kept calm and told him she would get the cash. Instead deputies say she grabbed her concealed carry weapon from her side and shot the suspect in the left shoulder.

Deputies said he took off running, but collapsed about half a mile away. The suspect was taken by LifeFlight to Memorial Hermann Hospital.

The Sheriff's Office said the suspect is expected to recover and that he will be charged with aggravated robbery.

The case will be sent to a grand jury to determine if the woman will be charged.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:31 am

http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/06/hermitage-man-chases-fires-gun-burglary-suspects/28596149/

Hermitage man chases, fires gun on burglary suspects
Andy Humbles, ahumbles@tennessean.com 9:46 a.m. CDT June 6, 2015

A Hermitage resident attempted to chase down two burglary suspects in his vehicle early Saturday, which led to a gunshot fired in self-defense, police said.

The victim arrived at his residence on Bret Ridge Drive and noticed one suspect standing next to his house and the other climbing a fence out of the backyard, according to police who were called just after 3 a.m.

The suspects then ran across the street and the resident followed in his vehicle and told them to stop. The resident told police one of the suspects pulled a handgun and pointed it at the victim.

The resident was also armed and fired a shot in self-defense, police said. The resident told police one of the suspects stumbled and both continued to run. ...

I don't know that this qualifies as an example of self defense.

I would not have chased the bad guys. Once they are seen to be running away, there is no longer an immediate threat to the homeowner. I would not attempt to follow the bad guys and risk getting shot at, as apparently happened in this case.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:44 am

The point that I was making in my example - having just shot a person who was indeed armed, but unbeknown to me had no evil intent, is that he will always be a bad guy since he is dead and cannot explain himself. As the shooter, I don`t need to lie - as indeed I thought he was a bad guy. Of course I do recognize that there are armed bad guys out there, and have no issue with the police doing their job and even calling them bad guys. But this label is over-used and too simplistic – since it post-mortem justifies the lethal force.

Of course I happen to assume that everyone (except police and military) are bad guys if they have weapons displayed in non-TPO situations, so I would be wary and possibly trigger happy. Hunting - no problem, target practice - no problem, both being acceptable TPO situations. But only a bad guy will carry an assault weapon into an airport, shopping center, theater, restaurant, etc. - and if there, I will be looking for a quick exit (since of course I will not be armed.)

I do not live in the US and haven`t travelled there for several years. And while I would like to visit again, this Open Carry madness will keep me away. Unfortunately, it will also keep me away from Canada, Mexico, and Central American countries – since one never knows in advance when a flight might be re-routed.

True story: I once lived in a mid-western town and bought a house. About a month later, our dog awoke us and upon descending the stairs a man was exiting the house. The local police advised me on proper use of a pistol, should I need to protect myself. Their advice – fire all cylinders (helps with temporary insanity/fear for life defense if you were wrong), ensure he is dead (only your story lives), never announce - just shoot (since seconds count and you wouldn`t want to give him a chance to pull out a weapon). Note that the police did not advise to check if he was armed, drunk, lost, etc. Good that I didn`t have a gun – since the man had a key and had come back to retrieve a power tool he left behind when he was helping the prior owner do some repairs, of course he wasn`t armed, and he didn`t know the house had sold. But had I killed him, he would have been a bad guy and the police would have supported that.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:11 am

I wonder how such an experiens woud influens your pozition, xoup. Altho its only a single story and statisticly insignificant, wen sumthing happenz to you, you reeeeelly feel the implicationz.

A common thing I'm notising about your examplz iz bad riting. Not all uv them, but alot uv them hav substandard or odd grammar. Are thoze from the same sourse?
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:32 am

TJrandom wrote:True story: I once lived in a mid-western town and bought a house. About a month later, our dog awoke us and upon descending the stairs a man was exiting the house. The local police advised me on proper use of a pistol, should I need to protect myself. Their advice – fire all cylinders (helps with temporary insanity/fear for life defense if you were wrong), ensure he is dead (only your story lives), never announce - just shoot (since seconds count and you wouldn`t want to give him a chance to pull out a weapon). Note that the police did not advise to check if he was armed, drunk, lost, etc. Good that I didn`t have a gun – since the man had a key and had come back to retrieve a power tool he left behind when he was helping the prior owner do some repairs, of course he wasn`t armed, and he didn`t know the house had sold. But had I killed him, he would have been a bad guy and the police would have supported that.

JO 753 wrote:I wonder how such an experiens woud influens your pozition, xoup. Altho its only a single story and statisticly insignificant, wen sumthing happenz to you, you reeeeelly feel the implicationz.

I have no reason to doubt that story. Sometimes accidents happen and innocent people get shot in scenarios similar to that. It's tragic, I agree. So is a 4-year-old drowning in a neighbor's pool.

Since you asked, my position is that such examples are not sufficient justification to infringe my right to arms.

I have personally witnessed people dying from skydiving accidents, but that never stopped me from jumping again. Some 40,000 people die each year in car accidents, but that doesn't stop me from driving my car. Does that statistic stop you from driving a car? Perhaps I am not understanding your question.

JO 753 wrote:A common thing I'm notising about your examplz iz bad riting. Not all uv them, but alot uv them hav substandard or odd grammar. Are thoze from the same sourse?

No. They are from a variety of unrelated sources -- typically local news sources -- which should be obvious from the links I post. Most of them are written by local reporters from all over the US. I agree it is not Pulitzer Prize quality reporting, but that's no real surprise is it?

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:39 am

TJrandom wrote:The point that I was making in my example - having just shot a person who was indeed armed, but unbeknown to me had no evil intent, is that he will always be a bad guy since he is dead and cannot explain himself. As the shooter, I don`t need to lie - as indeed I thought he was a bad guy.

If you describe your example scenario to the police as you have stated it on this forum, I predict they will not accept your claim of self defense. According to your own description, the other guy never committed any criminal act and at no time did the other guy take any action that was an actual threat to your safety.

According to the law, the circumstances you describe are not sufficient reason to fear for your safety. In other words, your fear was unfounded and thus the homicide was not justifiable under current law.

I assume you were presenting your example scenario to make a point, and that you would not actually shoot the guy in that situation. My point is if you did shoot him, your claim of self defense would likely not be accepted by the police. Thus I do not get the point you are trying to make.

TJrandom wrote: Of course I do recognize that there are armed bad guys out there, and have no issue with the police doing their job and even calling them bad guys. But this label is over-used and too simplistic – since it post-mortem justifies the lethal force.

Would you prefer that I call them criminals instead of bad guys? I use the two terms synonymously.

TJrandom wrote:Of course I happen to assume that everyone (except police and military) are bad guys if they have weapons displayed in non-TPO situations, so I would be wary and possibly trigger happy. Hunting - no problem, target practice - no problem, both being acceptable TPO situations.

What is a "TPO situation"?

TJrandom wrote: But only a bad guy will carry an assault weapon into an airport, shopping center, theater, restaurant, etc.

That would be a mistaken assumption on your part. Merely carrying a firearm does not make person a criminal. And if someone is carrying concealed, then you might never even know he has a firearm.

Image
Image

If you are in a store and see open carrying similar to the above photos, and it causes you to fear for your immediate safety, then I respectfully suggest you are interpreting the situation incorrectly. That kind of mistake on your part, if you act on it inappropriately, can cause you to experience some jail time. The law does not allow you claim self defense merely because you feel open carry is a threat to your safety. I would not feel any discomfort at all being near those people in the store, especially when they are not behaving in a threatening way.

TJrandom wrote:I do not live in the US and haven`t travelled there for several years. And while I would like to visit again, this Open Carry madness will keep me away. Unfortunately, it will also keep me away from Canada, Mexico, and Central American countries – since one never knows in advance when a flight might be re-routed.

Open carry is not as common in the US as you seem to fear, despite the media hype. I have only once in my life seen someone carry openly, and that was in Idaho. But I know quite a few people who carry concealed and I am not uncomfortable with that either.

I find it interesting to talk to certain Canadians who say they will never visit the US because they think it is too dangerous there, and then in the same conversation they will talk about wanting to retire to Belize or Costa Rica, apparently oblivious to the fact that both of those countries are more dangerous than the US.

My point here is that sometimes it is easy to talk yourself into an irrational fear. I hesitate to say you are doing that, but I admit I am puzzled by your fear of open carry in the US. But that's really none of my business. You are free to not travel wherever you want for any reason at all.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:41 pm

Sorry, maybe the meaning of TPO isn`t understood widely. I did a google search, using the US site, and only found an entry in Japanese. Plus you didn`t recognize it from my example.

TPO means Time, Place, Occasion/Opportunity, and thus would mean carrying and using guns at ranges and when hunting. Non-TPO gun use would be displaying them in public to make the statement that I can do this legally, no matter what you think, no matter your concerns for safety, etc.

TPO is a social construct for civilized society – make loud car noise at the drag strip, not on the street; nude bathe at designated nude beaches, not near the public kiddy pool; fix your black exhaust spewing muffler, don`t `coal roll`; etc. Some might be proscribed by law, others not. The basics of it is to respect the feelings of others and not be an intentional bully.

Open carry is an intentional bully tactic.


http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/TPO

As for my example causing the police to not believe me - one only needs to recall the death of Hattori, a student who was shot and killed for simply going to the wrong house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:18 am

TJrandom wrote:TPO means Time, Place, Occasion/Opportunity,

I am familiar with the concept, I just never heard it called that before. Thanks for explaining.

TJrandom wrote:Open carry is an intentional bully tactic.

Sometimes it is, but in general it is not, at least not in the US. Open carry has a long tradition in the US going back even before we were a country.

If you see someone on the street or in the grocery store who is open carrying and you call the police to report your fear -- as some people have tried to do -- they will likely tell you that unless there is a crime being committed, they are perfectly legal to carry openly. The police will tell you that your "fear" is not sufficient to arrest the other person or stop him from carrying openly. You can complain all you want that you are fearful for your safety but that will not change the fact that you have misinterpreted the situation.

TJrandom wrote:As for my example causing the police to not believe me - one only needs to recall the death of Hattori, a student who was shot and killed for simply going to the wrong house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori

I am familiar with that example. That's a tragic example, yes, and you will recall that I have more than once acknowledged that mistakes sometimes happen and innocent people get killed.

However, Hattori's situation has two key differences from your example that completely changes the application of the law.

1. It happened on the homeowner's property, not out in the public space where your example happened.

2. Unlike the person in your example, Hattori was apparently moving fast and aggressively straight toward a person pointing a gun at him -- on private property no less. A reasonable American would have known to stop moving when he was told to "freeze". That was ultimately Hattori's fatal mistake, the last mistake in a long chain of mistakes by all parties. Perhaps it's a cultural difference, but I know of no one in his right mind who will continue rushing towards someone who is pointing a gun at him. Criminals will sometimes do that and thus it is reasonable to infer intent to harm in such a scenario, especially when there is insufficient time for calm assessment.

This is, as you say, a tragic mistake. Errors were made by both sides. But it is not similar enough to your example to be of any value to your argument. The crucial facts of your case do not match the facts of Hattori's case, and that is why your claim of self defense will likely not be accepted by the police.

In case I need to clarify my position further, my position is that your fear of open carry is not reasonable, at least not in the US. Your fear of open carry will not be sufficient to justify using lethal force against someone who is merely carrying openly. That is the problem with your example scenario.

If your point is that your personal interpretation of open carry should inform the laws in the US, then perhaps I can put your mind at ease by saying that your argument has already been presented to various legislatures.


Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:17 am

xouper wrote:2. Unlike the person in your example, Hattori was apparently moving fast and aggressively straight toward a person pointing a gun at him


Disproven by forensic evidence.

In case I need to clarify my position further, my position is that your fear of open carry is not reasonable,


A foolish pozition.

Look at your granny in the grosery store, for example. If you cant think up a duzen different wayz that can go rong, your grammar skool teacherz were seksesful in their job uv killing your imajination.
Last edited by JO 753 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:58 am

Just to clear the air a bit – I harbor no irrational fear of open carry. I know that statistically I will not be shot, but I also know that more guns means more deaths – just not mine, and an increase in the sheer meanness of the society.

I will stay away from open carry because it is a reversion to unnecessary meanness and a display of willful incivility by people who should know better. I don`t willingly put myself in the company of religious nutters, KKK and other racists, homophobes, conspiracists, or history denying nationalists, and I see no need to do so with gun nutters – no matter that they have finagled the law to their side.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:30 am

TJrandom wrote:... I also know that more guns means more deaths

No, you don't. The statistics are far from conclusive. Some show what you say and some contradict what you say. So how can you possibly "know" which statistics are correct?

TJrandom wrote:I will stay away from open carry because it is a reversion to unnecessary meanness and a display of willful incivility by people who should know better.

That is not a valid accusation. But thank you for revealing your personal prejudice in this matter.

TJrandom wrote: I don`t willingly put myself in the company of religious nutters, KKK and other racists, homophobes, conspiracists, or history denying nationalists, and I see no need to do so with gun nutters

There's your problem, you mistakenly think that anyone who is openly carrying is a "nutter". Once again, you reveal your personal prejudice in the matter.

TJrandom wrote: – no matter that they have finagled the law to their side.

That is not a valid accusation. The laws have traditionally been on "their" side, by default. I refer you again to the Second Amendment and various state constitutions that protect the right to keep and bear arms. The changes in gun laws in the US have been from the gun grabbers, not the "nutters".

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:42 am

Sorry, but open carry laws are new. So are stand your ground laws. So are concealed weapons issue upon demand laws.

We wouldn`t want any exposed prejudices now would we? Seems I have a lot these days. All in my mind, no doubt. :shock:

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:52 am

TJrandom wrote:Sorry, but open carry laws are new. So are stand your ground laws. So are concealed weapons issue upon demand laws.

You have that exactly backwards. Most states have never had a law prohibiting open carry. Vermont has never had a law requiring a permit to carry, either open or concealed. The "new" laws you speak of are intended to roll back the prohibitions first enacted by gun control advocates.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:58 am

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:2. Unlike the person in your example, Hattori was apparently moving fast and aggressively straight toward a person pointing a gun at him

Disproven by forensic evidence.

Citation please?

If you are referring to the 1997 book "I have Lived in the Monster" by Robert Ressler, I will try to find a copy and verify that point.

I would prefer to see the actual criminal court transcript, which would clearly mention such forensic evidence, but I don't have access. But I did find this interesting summary of the transcript (in far more detail than the wikipedia article):

http://blogd.com/wp/index.php/archives/118

There is no mention of any forensic evidence that Hattori did not run at Mr. Peairs.

I did find something about the civil trial:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19951171662So2d509_1981.xml/HATTORI%20v.%20PEAIRS

Nothing there about any forensic evidence that Hattori was not running towards Peairs. The ruling in the civil trial was that the claim of self defense was not legitimate. The problem of course is that civil trials have a lesser burden of evidence than criminal trials.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:In case I need to clarify my position further, my position is that your fear of open carry is not reasonable,

A foolish pozition. Look at your granny in the grosery store, for example. If you cant think up a duzen different wayz that can go rong, your grammar skool teachez were seksesful in their job uv killing your imajination.

The relevant question is not how many ways you can imagine things going wrong. The only question that matters is what are the facts. How often are innocent bystanders actually harmed from an open carry gone wrong? Almost never.

Where then is the justification for fear of open carry? It's imaginary, as you say. You can imagine ways you can be harmed by someone who is open carrying. My point is that when you use imagination to feed your fear, instead of using actual facts, then such a fear is unreasonable.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:52 am

xouper wrote:Citation please?


Wiki wrote:Contrary to Mr. Peairs' claim that Hattori was moving strangely and quickly towards him, forensic evidence demonstrates that Hattori was moving slowly, or not at all, and his arms were away from his body, indicating he was no threat.


The relevant question is not how many ways you can imagine things going wrong.


It iz the essens uv intellijent action. Just az it iz smart to step out uv the way uv a speeding bus, it iz smart to avoid a flying bullet. The thing about bullets iz that they take more forthot to avoid.

1. Your bad guy can take that gun and, being a frail old lady, she cant stop him. Now he haz a gun. If he iznt quick enuf, too bad, now she haz a broken arm for trying to stop him and maybe if she put up too much uv a fite, he'll give her back 1 uv her bullets.

2. You dressed a little sloppy & dark. Havent shaved for a week. Makes you look like that bad element she fearz. You happen to be going for thoze bagelz in the blue rapper wen the stockboy drops a box uv Anchor Hocking ice cream float glassez. She wuz alredy on ej and the crash just confirmz her suspicion that you were about to strike. Suprizing how quick a draw she iz. Now your on your way to the hospital. Probably not going to get there.

3. Shez an idiot. Left the safety off. Worse! She had her grandson replace the trigger spring with a much weaker wun kuz it wuz too hard to pull befor. Wile shez at the rejister getting her groseryz on the belt, a prong sticking out a bit on her cart catches on the trigger and fires 3 roundz befor it unhooks. She haz holez in her leg and the little kid behind her iz def and blind in 1 eye from the sement chips that exploded out uv the floor. Everybody within 30 feet haz sum hearing loss. Everybody, nearly 60 peepl, get to spend the next 2 owrz talking to the cops. Granny died at the sene frum blood loss.

I can rite theze all day. You can say 'never happened' but I think you know the fallasy uv that. Pretty good chance similar storyz can be found.

It takes a really dum cluck to not step out uv the way uv the bus. Hiz protest that he had the rite uv way iz exactly equal to your protest that Americanz hav a rite to carry gunz around.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:33 am

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:Citation please?

Wiki wrote:Contrary to Mr. Peairs' claim that Hattori was moving strangely and quickly towards him, forensic evidence demonstrates that Hattori was moving slowly, or not at all, and his arms were away from his body, indicating he was no threat.

That's not a citation, that's merely quoting from the wiki article which I had already read. Apparently you failed to notice that I also already posted the source for that wiki info, Ressler's book [reference #11]. Please try to keep up here, you're about a mile behind me on this one.

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:The relevant question is not how many ways you can imagine things going wrong.

I can rite theze all day.

Please go back and reread what I wrote. It doesn't matter what kind of dangers you can imagine, it only matters what kind of dangers are known to have actually happened. As I already pointed out, imaginary fears are unfounded compared to fears based on actual facts. You are far more likely to die from a car accident than from an open carry gone wrong. Show me a real reason to fear open carry, not some imaginary reason.

JO 753 wrote:You can say 'never happened'

I never said that.

JO 753 wrote:It takes a really dum cluck to not step out uv the way uv the bus. Hiz protest that he had the rite uv way iz exactly equal to your protest that Americanz hav a rite to carry gunz around.

JO, that is the fourth stoopid thing in a row that you've said in your post.

Seriously, JO, your reply shows you have not paid one bit of attention to what I actually wrote. Worse than your usual lack of comprehension. Are you having a bad day or something?

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:22 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Sorry, but open carry laws are new. So are stand your ground laws. So are concealed weapons issue upon demand laws.

You have that exactly backwards. Most states have never had a law prohibiting open carry. Vermont has never had a law requiring a permit to carry, either open or concealed. The "new" laws you speak of are intended to roll back the prohibitions first enacted by gun control advocates.


xouper, my guess was that racism, economic upheaval, and simple fearmongering is what has fueled the move to implement pro-gun laws. The laws I am thinking of are not reversals of laws enacted by gun control advocates, but new laws. For example, inserting into state constitutions text that precludes allowing any future international law from restricting guns, or removing long standing restrictions on concealed carry.

Ref: Alabama – in 2014, added to their state constitution that no restriction (including by international treaty) would be allowed to restrict the right to bear arms (fearmonger) – and reversed a court affirmation (1980) that the state could restrict concealed carry(long standing). And - Missouri – in 2014, removed the state constitution restriction on concealed carry (long standing).

But I wanted to ask if you could provide a few examples that support your contention that pro-gun laws are reversals of laws enacted by gun control advocates. Or are my two examples the kind of rollbacks that you were thinking of?

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:10 pm

No, I'm doing fine, xoup. xanks for asking.

Herez sumthing conserning resent gun lawz:

Looking at the data collected about legislation that was signed into law, states passed an average of 4.8 NRA-backed laws since 2003.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/state-la ... z3cf0fmzFH
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:24 pm

Rapist shot with hiz own gun

Hard to say if this shoud be here or in my counter-topic.

The bad guy uzed the gun az a thret to commit hiz crime, but then it wuz uzed to kill him. So, if he didnt hav it, he woud probably not hav been able to provide an effectiv thret so there woud hav been no crime. He woud hav dun better with a fake or unloaded gun.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:01 pm

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Sorry, but open carry laws are new. So are stand your ground laws. So are concealed weapons issue upon demand laws.

You have that exactly backwards. Most states have never had a law prohibiting open carry. Vermont has never had a law requiring a permit to carry, either open or concealed. The "new" laws you speak of are intended to roll back the prohibitions first enacted by gun control advocates.

xouper, my guess was that racism, economic upheaval, and simple fearmongering is what has fueled the move to implement pro-gun laws.

Again, seems to me you have that exactly backwards.

Everyone is entitled to their own personal (and prejudicial) opinion. For the record, I strongly disagree with your "guess".

In fact I find it amusing that you characterize defense of liberties as "fearmongering", whereas I would characterize the gun grabbers as "fearmongers". Your own advocacy against open carry seems to be based on fear, making your position one of "fearmongering".

My guess (which is also prejudicial) is that people these days are sick and tired of the federal government (and gun grabbers and liberal do-gooders) infringing their liberties.

In the southern US, and in Texas in particular, some of the earliest gun restrictions very clearly had a racist motivation, which is perhaps not surprising considering those restrictions that were enacted shortly after the Civil War.

TJrandom wrote:Ref: Alabama – in 2014, added to their state constitution that no restriction (including by international treaty) would be allowed to restrict the right to bear arms (fearmonger) – and reversed a court affirmation (1980) that the state could restrict concealed carry(long standing).

That Alabama amendment did not materially change the original intent to protect the right to keep and bear arms. Looking at the before and after text, it should immediately be clear that the original intent was merely made stronger and more clear.

Before:

"(a) That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

After:

"(a) Every citizen has a fundamental right to bear arms in defense of himself or herself and the state. Any restriction on this right shall be subject to strict scrutiny.

The word in blue was removed and the words in red were added. It should be clear that no new rights were added by the amendment.

The 2014 revision also added a part (b), which merely states that international law shall not apply to citizens of Alabama.

(b) No citizen shall be compelled by any international treaty or international law to take an action that prohibits, limits, or otherwise interferes with his or her fundamental right to keep and bear arms in defense of himself or herself and the state, if such treaty or law, or its adoption, violates the United States Constitution.

Again, this did not add any new rights, but merely made explicit that existing rights are not subject to restriction by international treaty or law. Whether part (b) will withstand federal legal challenge remains to be seen, but that's a different matter.

TJrandom wrote:And - Missouri – in 2014, removed the state constitution restriction on concealed carry (long standing).

I am not familiar enough with the history of the Missouri constitution, and more specifically why there was such a restriction in the first place, so until I discover otherwise, I'll have to allow that as an example of a "new" law. Missouri became a state in 1821, about the same time as certain other states were starting to prohibit concealed carry.

TJrandom wrote:But I wanted to ask if you could provide a few examples that support your contention that pro-gun laws are reversals of laws enacted by gun control advocates.

Let's look at a simplified history of gun laws in Texas, for example.

  • Open carry of rifles has never been prohibited in Texas.
  • Texas was the first state to prohibit handguns in 1871 (with exceptions).
  • In 1995, the prohibition against concealed carry of handguns was repealed.
  • In 2015, the prohibition against open carry of handguns was repealed.

Further commentary on that can be seen here:
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php

That seems pretty clear to me that open carry of handguns in Texas is not a new law, it is a rollback to the way things were when the Second Amendment was written. It restores the law to its previous condition before the gun control advocates changed it.

The history of guns laws in many other states are similar. First there were no restrictions, then the gun control advocates got some restrictions enacted, and now more and more of those restrictions are being rolled back by people who are sick and tired of having their liberties infringed.

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:41 am

OK - that was what I was after - so it seems that in the case of Texas - the `roll-back` was after 124 years - so not a reversal of `gun-grabber` action. IMO, it is a reversal of civility.

The Alabama (b) sure looks like a fearmongering result to me, since conspiracists are all against a new world order, whatever that is.

As for racism - these laws are being changed since Obama became president.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:14 am

TJrandom wrote:OK - that was what I was after - so it seems that in the case of Texas - the `roll-back` was after 124 years - so not a reversal of `gun-grabber` action. IMO, it is a reversal of civility.

The Alabama (b) sure looks like a fearmongering result to me, since conspiracists are all against a new world order, whatever that is.

As for racism - these laws are being changed since Obama became president.

Thanks for sharing your opinions. Sometimes it's interesting to see how other people's prejudices differ from my own.

I'm especially amused that you consider the restoration of liberties, including the right to self defense, to be "uncivil".

Regarding your (uninformed) speculation about fear of some vague "new word order", the Alabama revision was a direct rebuke of the recent UN Arms Trade Treaty.

Point of fact, many of these laws were changed long before Obama. Notice in the following time-lapse animated map how many states changed their concealed carry laws before 2008.

http://jpfo.org/images14/right-to-carry2.gif

User avatar
TJrandom
Has More Than 7K Posts
Posts: 7367
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am
Location: Pacific coast outside of Tokyo bay.
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:35 am

Thanks for that - but I am a bit cornfused over what it showed. The ledgend said `xxx issue` but the title said `to carry`. Also, it showed Missouri go `will issue` in 2003, while the state constitution wasn`t changed until 2014.

Thanks for the reference to the UN Arms Trade Treaty. Wiki had a good summary and included the NRA`s position on it - so I am now informed.

I am happy that you are amused. But preparing to kill people, IMO - is as uncivil as one can be.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:30 am

TJrandom wrote: preparing to kill people, IMO - is as uncivil as one can be.


A great way to fraze it.

Can you imajin standing in the checkout line at the grosery store and telling everybody around you in a casual manner "Keep in mind that I can kill you in a second." You coud also hav that printed on your shirt, in case sumwun wuznt paying attention.

Depending on the demografics, you shoud learn to say the fraze in the dominant local forin languaj and hav it both wayz on your shirt. You know, to be fair. Cant get much siviler than that.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:53 am

I asked myself ' why the grosery store'? I apparently envision that wen I'm thinking about wuts rong with gun nuts parading around in public.

I think that the grosery store reprezents the consept uv sivilization very well. Its a key part uv wut we hav accomplished. Its a major indicator to reassure yourself that you are not a bear or monkey. Its like majik - If you hav sum form uv money and wear clothez, you can walk into any grosery store on the planet and load up a cart with all sorts uv fantastic goodyz from around the world. Nobody will chase you out. You dont need to fite with dogz for your selectionz. You are garanteed that everything will be clean, fresh and non-poizonous (mostly). If you arent satisfied with anything, even if youv alredy chewed on it, you can bring it back for a refund.

Seriously muze about this from the perspectiv uv a rakoon. IF he had the power to imajin all this, he woud be thinking up hiz idea uv heven.

Now, if you coud tell him its real! YES! Heven iz haf a mile up the road! I jiveth ye not, exactly az you imajined it!

1 little thing, tho - you can get shot ded wile youre there for absolutely no reazon. Sorry to ruin it for you.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:26 am

TJrandom wrote:Thanks for that - but I am a bit cornfused over what it showed. The ledgend said `xxx issue` but the title said `to carry`.

I thought I had explained that the map was for concealed carry. I specifically mentioned that because the image itself does not make that clear, as you noticed. Perhaps I didn't explain it loud enough? ;)

TJrandom wrote:Also, it showed Missouri go `will issue` in 2003, while the state constitution wasn`t changed until 2014.

I am not entirely clear on that point either. In 2003 the state law was clearly changed to "shall issue" for concealed carry permits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Proposition_B_(1999)

In 2003, the Missouri constitution said this:

Section 23. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.

I am guessing that the phrase in red was not a literal prohibition against concealed carry, but rather concealed carry was not a protected right under the state constitution. My guess could be wrong, and perhaps there is another explanation for how the state constitution is interpreted.

The fact remains, however, that the state law was changed in 2003, well before Obama was elected president, contrary to your earlier claim.

TJrandom wrote:I am happy that you are amused. But preparing to kill people, IMO - is as uncivil as one can be.

Killing people without legal justification is uncivil, I agree. It is more than uncivil, it is illegal.

However, if a someone attacks me, it is not uncivil for me to defend myself with a gun, even if that means the criminal ends up injured or dead. I reject your opinion that self defense is uncivil.

Are you seriously saying that in all of the examples I posted in this thread of successful self defense with a gun, the victim was behaving in an uncivil manner by defending themselves? I guess I would prefer to be thought of as "uncivil" than to be thought of "posthumously".

User avatar
xouper
True Skeptic
Posts: 10277
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:07 am

JO 753 wrote:Can you imajin standing in the checkout line at the grosery store and telling everybody around you in a casual manner "Keep in mind that I can kill you in a second." You coud also hav that printed on your shirt, in case sumwun wuznt paying attention.

Most people don't need to be reminded of that. But sometimes criminals do. How about if the shirt said, "If you're not a criminal, you have nothing to worry about." In case someone wasn't paying attention.

JO 753 wrote:I asked myself ' why the grosery store'?

That question is answered by some of the examples I posted in this thread.

Customer returned fire, effectively saving the lives of those around him
viewtopic.php?p=465682#p465682

Customer with concealed weapon stops bat-wielding attacker at Wal-Mart
viewtopic.php?p=457555#p457555

Customer halts robbery, kills two suspects
viewtopic.php?p=455775#p455775

Apparently, those gun carrying customers were behaving in an uncivil manner, according to some people. :roll:

Flash asked a similar question, which I answered here:
viewtopic.php?p=455462#p455462

JO 753 wrote:I think that the grosery store reprezents the consept uv sivilization very well. Its a key part uv wut we hav accomplished. Its a major indicator to reassure yourself that you are not a bear or monkey. Its like majik - If you hav sum form uv money and wear clothez, you can walk into any grosery store on the planet and load up a cart with all sorts uv fantastic goodyz from around the world. Nobody will chase you out. You dont need to fite with dogz for your selectionz. You are garanteed that everything will be clean, fresh and non-poizonous (mostly). If you arent satisfied with anything, even if youv alredy chewed on it, you can bring it back for a refund.

That's an excellent observation.

JO 753 wrote:1 little thing, tho - you can get shot ded wile youre there for absolutely no reazon. Sorry to ruin it for you.

Yes, criminals have been known to do that. However, the risk of being shot for no reason by a responsible law abiding citizen carrying a gun is miniscule. You are far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver, even as a pedestrian.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:39 pm

All your rebuttlez hav the same underlying flaw - failure to realize that the good guyz having gunz iz wut enablez the bad guyz to hav gunz.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.

User avatar
JO 753
Has No Life
Posts: 12218
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 pm
Custom Title: rezident owtsidr
Location: BLaNDLaND
Contact:

Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:45 pm

And thanks to the open carry lawz, they dont even need to buy them. Just go to the grocery store and granny haz wun for you.
Image
Then, you can walk over to the lunch counter and take theze goonz down with it befor they know wuts going on and now you hav a respectable arsenal.
Image
And grab a case uv Bud before you leave. Thats free also now.
Gubmint for us
http://www.7532020.com
not the rich.


Return to “Guns”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest