Examples of successful self defense with a gun

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 30, 2015 6:42 am

Then you can see that the hearing loss from a gunshot will bring that persentaj down quite a bit.

Firing a gun indoorz iz particularly bad, potentially defening you permanently.

There iz also the potential uv being infected with a blood born illness if your assailant's blood gets in your mouth, eyez or an open wound.

Wut persentaj drop woud you calculate for being def and HIV pozitiv after killing a thug who crawled thru the window wile you were sleeping?
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat May 30, 2015 7:08 am

JO 753 wrote:Then you can see that the hearing loss from a gunshot will bring that persentaj down quite a bit.

Firing a gun indoorz iz particularly bad, potentially defening you permanently.

There iz also the potential uv being infected with a blood born illness if your assailant's blood gets in your mouth, eyez or an open wound.

Wut persentaj drop woud you calculate for being def and HIV pozitiv after killing a thug who crawled thru the window wile you were sleeping?

I don't know. Do you? On what basis do you claim these "bring the percentage down quite a bit"?

As for hearing loss, that is a good argument for building suppressors into the gun to make them safer for the owner.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 30, 2015 8:47 am

Yes, it iz. They are illegal tho. Makes no sens to me.

On the basis uv its better to hav good hearing than being def and having HIV iz likely to cauze a slow & terrible deth.

Wut about 5% seksesful? (Youre alive, but only for a few yirz and will never hear your fave toonz agen and hav to watch everything with subtitlez.)

Then therez the potential legal trouble.

Given a 99.99999% seksesful self defens after subtracting the cost uv the bullet, you coud still possibly end up on deth row.

Suppoze you shoot the guy who crawled in the window, had the supressor on and a pillow rapped around your earz. No blood splattered, he fell back out the window and didnt hav HIV anyway. Then it turnz out it wuz the naybor youv been feuding with for yirz trying to save you kuz the roof wuz on fire.

If you are reeeeely lucky, your story will hold up in court, so it will only be a mountain uv legal billz and your old lifestyle down the crapper.

5% (deth row/life in prizon) to 50% (youre alive and free, but now working part time at Walmart and living in a crummy apartment with 3 other loozerz.)

Its too late, but a thinking person in theze casez woud be wondering wut else they coud hav dun insted uv pulling the trigger.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat May 30, 2015 6:02 pm

JO 753 wrote:Yes, it iz. They are illegal tho. Makes no sens to me.

Some are illegal, some are not. They are (currently) highly regulated and expensive. See for example:

Florida lifts ban on silencers for game hunting (November 2014)
http://www.news4jax.com/news/florida-lifts-ban-on-silencers-for-game-hunting/29867028

Jim Turner of The News Service of Florida wrote:... Florida becomes the 33rd state to allow the noise-suppressors for game hunting.

... Florida already allows the use of suppressors on shotguns for game hunting. A suppressor can also be placed on a rifle or pistol when hunting on private lands for non-game wildlife, including hogs and armadillos.

... Concerns have been expressed to the commission that lifting the ban would reduce safety and increase opportunities for illegal activities. But Eggeman said wildlife officials from other states haven't reported an increase in illegal activities as few hunters use suppressors because they are expensive and highly regulated.

To purchase a silencer, a hunter must pay a $200 registration fee with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and pass an FBI background check.

The cost of a rifle suppressor has been estimated between $450 and $2,000.

Here's a map showing which states allow suppressors:
http://americansuppressorassociation.com/education/

Here's an explanation of the burdensome process required to buy a suppressor:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/13/news/companies/gun-silencers/


JO 753 wrote:On the basis uv its better to hav good hearing than being def and having HIV iz likely to cauze a slow & terrible deth.

Wut about 5% seksesful? (Youre alive, but only for a few yirz and will never hear your fave toonz agen and hav to watch everything with subtitlez.)

Then therez the potential legal trouble.

Given a 99.99999% seksesful self defens after subtracting the cost uv the bullet, you coud still possibly end up on deth row.

Suppoze you shoot the guy who crawled in the window, had the supressor on and a pillow rapped around your earz. No blood splattered, he fell back out the window and didnt hav HIV anyway. Then it turnz out it wuz the naybor youv been feuding with for yirz trying to save you kuz the roof wuz on fire.

If you are reeeeely lucky, your story will hold up in court, so it will only be a mountain uv legal billz and your old lifestyle down the crapper.

5% (deth row/life in prizon) to 50% (youre alive and free, but now working part time at Walmart and living in a crummy apartment with 3 other loozerz.)

Its too late, but a thinking person in theze casez woud be wondering wut else they coud hav dun insted uv pulling the trigger.

Those are all interesting conjectures, but I have not seen any data that shows they are common enough to worry about.

Suppose we ask all of the victims in the examples I posted in this thread, "Taking into consideration how things turned out in the longer run, if you had the chance to do it over, would you use a gun to defend yourself against that threat?"

I have no data to support any particular answer to that question, but since I would answer "yes" for most of those examples, my intuition tells me most of them would also say "yes". My intuition could be wrong.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat May 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Law enforcement officers would seem to be at risk for hearing loss from shooting guns. Does anyone know where there is any data on this issue?

I also found this item from a few years ago:

Police officers suffer hearing damage from radios
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/7623804/Police-officers-suffer-hearing-damage-from-radios.html

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sat May 30, 2015 6:37 pm

American Supressor Association?! HA! Iz there a lobby group for every attachment and aksessory?
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat May 30, 2015 6:59 pm

I would be surprised if there is a lobby group for grip sleeves:

http://www.hogueinc.com/store/products/handall-full-size-grip-sleeve-zombie-green/7881

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Sun May 31, 2015 10:49 am

xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:I only recall you having 1 undebunkt point remaining; the CDC stat that peeps with gunz are less likely to be killed in a confrontation.

You recall incorrectly. There were many more that were also "undebunkt".

JO 753 wrote:Maybe I missed that. ... Please repost the link.

I already posted it twice in another thread -- where I know you've seen it -- but just for you I can post it again here. (My previous claim of "3 to 1" was due to an error in my memory. I should have double checked.)

According to the 2013 CDC report commissioned by President Obama:

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence (2013)
Available for free download here:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence

... In 2010, incidents in the United States involving firearms injured or killed more than 105,000 individuals;

... Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

The number for physical harm done to individuals by guns includes injuries, homicides, accidents, and suicides.

The exact number of defensive uses of guns is not known, but the CDC accepts that the actual number is within the range of 500,000 to 3,000,000. I understand why there is an objection to the upper bound, but I have seen no valid objection that the lower number is too high, so that's the number I will use here.

Comparing the two numbers, 100,000 instances of harm versus 500,000 instances of benefit, the ratio is 5 to 1 in favor of guns having a benefit. This is not my conclusion, this is directly from the CDC report commissioned by the President. If you wish to dispute the CDC's report, then you are arguing with those scientists, not me.

If you prefer to compare all criminal uses of a gun (including incidents where no people were physically harmed) versus all defensive uses of a gun, then the ratio is smaller, only 5 to 3, but still showing that guns have more benefit than harm.

Again, that does not count the benefits of guns for hunting or sport shooting.

Overall, it seems there is more good from guns than bad.


Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively? That would be a magnitude in difference in credibility vs counts of deaths or serious injury which would come from police reports. I`d accept police reports of defensive use, but not responses to surveys.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 31, 2015 2:02 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively heroically? That would be a magnitude in difference in credibility vs counts of deaths or serious injury which would come from police reports. I`d accept police reports of defensive use, but not responses to surveys.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 2:33 pm

TJrandom wrote:Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively? That would be a magnitude in difference in credibility vs counts of deaths or serious injury which would come from police reports. I`d accept police reports of defensive use, but not responses to surveys.

Yes, this is a known problem with all self reporting surveys in science and epidemiology, not just for guns.

See for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study

Both sides of the gun debate use self reporting studies.

Consider for example, the most recent General Social Survey (GSS), which shows a decline in the number of households with guns. This survey is based only on self reporting. It is also contradicted by two other major national surveys (also based on self reporting) which show no such decline.

One of the problems with the GSS is that they survey a sample population in Chicago and then extrapolate that to the national level. I don't know about you, but if I lived in Chicago where guns have been illegal for many years, and some anonymous person comes to my door and asks do you have any guns in the house, I would be strongly inclined to say no, even if I had some. There is no penalty for lying to the surveyor.

This is also one of the criticisms of the surveys that show 2.5 million defensive gun uses (DGUs) per year. That number seems way too high even to me.

So, yes, you have identified a known problem with self reporting surveys. The accuracy of the results is less certain than for data driven studies. Part of the problem, is there is no data. Many self defensive gun uses (DGUs) never get reported to the police. And the DGUs that are reported are not uniformly tabulated as such in crime statistics.

The CDC report I cited seems willing to accept that the actual number of DGUs is in the range of 500,000 to 3,000,000. Complain all you want, but that is the opinion of the scientists at the CDC. And so it seems safe enough to use the smaller number as a conservative estimate. You can complain that such a number is less credible than one based on police data, and you would be right, but if that's the position you want to argue, then you have just dismissed all scientific studies based on self reporting, including the Branas study* (one of Lance's favorites). Are you sure you want to go there?


_________________________________________
* Footnote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

Branas, et al, wrote:Individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession.

The control group in that study is based entirely on self reporting over the telephone. They called random people in Philadelphia, PA, and asked them, do you have a gun in the house? If those respondents under-reported gun ownership by as little as ten percent, the entire study becomes meaningless, as admitted by the authors.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 2:45 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote: Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively heroically?

ftfy

That's a good fix. It certainly applies to this young girl (as reported earlier in this thread):

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/two_detroit_residents_charged.html

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl used the shotgun she normally keeps to go hunting with her father to scare off a robber in her home, police said.

The girl was alone at her North Branch Township home on Five Lakes Road about 3:45 p.m. on Jan. 30 when police said she surprised burglars who had broken into the house.

The girl hid in a bathroom closet, where she grabbed her shotgun that police said she stores in a gun safe.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the girl -- whose parents were due home from work a short time later -- pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

... Lapeer County Sheriff Detective Sgt. Jason Parks ... praised the girl's responsibility, poise and composure.

Yes, I'd say she was heroic in defending herself with her gun. Good call, Gawdzilla.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 3:44 pm

Man who shot dead carjackers with his legal concealed weapon after hearing woman screaming is hailed as a 'hero' by cops

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067201/Cops-hail-hero-concealed-weapons-permit-shoots-dead-carjackers-hears-woman-s-screams.html

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Sun May 31, 2015 7:06 pm

Interesting point in the comments for that article. The guy coud hav been legally repozessing the car.

Sure, its not likely, and not being there, we hav way less info than the shooter, but just suppoze that wuz the case. Suppoze you hear a woman screeming az sumwun iz taking her car and you hav mere secondz to assess the situation. Are you going to risk life in prizon to keep her car from going away?

The car pictured iz a Mercedes. Virtually certain that its insured, so she woud hav had a replacement soon enuf. Also a rezonable chans that the cops woud hav caut the guy and recovered the car.

In my opinion, the shooter took a foolish risk. Its also my opinion that car jackerz are parasitic bugz that need to be squashed and there are way too many humanz on the planet anyway, so he did the rite thing.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun May 31, 2015 8:12 pm

JO 753 wrote:Interesting point in the comments for that article. The guy coud hav been legally repozessing the car. Sure, its not likely, ...

The bad guy did two things wrong that immediately reveal he was not a (legitimate) repo guy. One, he pulled the owner out of the car, which is not legal. And two, he foolishly lunged towards someone who was pointing a gun at him.

And it's the latter action that got him killed, not the attempted carjacking. If he had heeded the warning to stop and wait for the police, he would not now be dead.

JO 753 wrote:Suppoze you hear a woman screeming az sumwun iz taking her car and you hav mere secondz to assess the situation. Are you going to risk life in prizon to keep her car from going away?

If someone comes lunging at me, as that criminal did, I won't hesitate to shoot.

JO 753 wrote:The car pictured iz a Mercedes. Virtually certain that its insured, so she woud hav had a replacement soon enuf.

I hindsight, that's probably true. Sometimes, however, in such scenarios there is an infant in the car who needs to be saved from the bad guy. I would have serious reservations about letting a bad guy kidnap a child.

JO 753 wrote: Also a rezonable chans that the cops woud hav caut the guy and recovered the car.

Really? The national average is less than half of stolen cars ever get returned. In Utah, where this happened, the return rate is a bit better at 60 percent.

JO 753 wrote:In my opinion, the shooter took a foolish risk.

Police Capt. Ned Jackson doesn't think so, and neither do I. Jackson said, "He did the right thing ... I think it's admirable he (shooter) heard someone's screams for help and stepped in to help."

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:44 am

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively? That would be a magnitude in difference in credibility vs counts of deaths or serious injury which would come from police reports. I`d accept police reports of defensive use, but not responses to surveys.

Yes, this is a known problem with all self reporting surveys in science and epidemiology, not just for guns.

See for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-report_study

Both sides of the gun debate use self reporting studies.

Consider for example, the most recent General Social Survey (GSS), which shows a decline in the number of households with guns. This survey is based only on self reporting. It is also contradicted by two other major national surveys (also based on self reporting) which show no such decline.

One of the problems with the GSS is that they survey a sample population in Chicago and then extrapolate that to the national level. I don't know about you, but if I lived in Chicago where guns have been illegal for many years, and some anonymous person comes to my door and asks do you have any guns in the house, I would be strongly inclined to say no, even if I had some. There is no penalty for lying to the surveyor.

This is also one of the criticisms of the surveys that show 2.5 million defensive gun uses (DGUs) per year. That number seems way too high even to me.

So, yes, you have identified a known problem with self reporting surveys. The accuracy of the results is less certain than for data driven studies. Part of the problem, is there is no data. Many self defensive gun uses (DGUs) never get reported to the police. And the DGUs that are reported are not uniformly tabulated as such in crime statistics.

The CDC report I cited seems willing to accept that the actual number of DGUs is in the range of 500,000 to 3,000,000. Complain all you want, but that is the opinion of the scientists at the CDC. And so it seems safe enough to use the smaller number as a conservative estimate. You can complain that such a number is less credible than one based on police data, and you would be right, but if that's the position you want to argue, then you have just dismissed all scientific studies based on self reporting, including the Branas study* (one of Lance's favorites). Are you sure you want to go there?


_________________________________________
* Footnote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

Branas, et al, wrote:Individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession.

The control group in that study is based entirely on self reporting over the telephone. They called random people in Philadelphia, PA, and asked them, do you have a gun in the house? If those respondents under-reported gun ownership by as little as ten percent, the entire study becomes meaningless, as admitted by the authors.


Survey results are not sufficiently valid for life and death decisions, and aren`t used in any other such area to my knowledge. For example – medicine uses the scientific method to determine efficacy – not surveys. And indeed – when comparing deaths and serious injury caused by guns to defensive use of guns, there is no need to use a survey, since hard data exists in police reports and hospital records. That is, unless you want to skew the results and include incidents which may have simply been in the minds of `nutters`.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:36 am

TJrandom wrote:Survey results are not sufficiently valid for life and death decisions,

Then you just discredited the Branas study that Lance repeatedly cites, and many other studies used by gun control advocates.

TJrandom wrote: ... and aren`t used in any other such area to my knowledge. For example – medicine uses the scientific method to determine efficacy – not surveys.

That is factually incorrect. Self reporting surveys are widely used in medicine and epidemiology studies. But, feel free to dismiss those as well.

TJrandom wrote: And indeed – when comparing deaths and serious injury caused by guns to defensive use of guns, there is no need to use a survey, since hard data exists in police reports and hospital records.

Not so. Hard data do not exist for all defensive gun uses, especially incidents that do not result in death or injury.

TJrandom wrote: That is, unless you want to skew the results and include incidents which may have simply been in the minds of `nutters`.

Where is the data that such "incidents" are a non-trivial percentage of reported defensive gun uses?

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:44 am

xouper wrote: ...
TJrandom wrote: ... and aren`t used in any other such area to my knowledge. For example – medicine uses the scientific method to determine efficacy – not surveys.

That is factually incorrect. Self reporting surveys are widely used in medicine and epidemiology studies. But, feel free to dismiss those as well.


So that is why it takes years to bring new drugs to the market. It isn`t the time it takes for clinical trials to be conducted under strict controls, but rather just dish out the drug for a few years and then conduct a survey to see if people report that it made them feel better. Who knew?

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:53 pm

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote: ...
TJrandom wrote: ... and aren`t used in any other such area to my knowledge. For example – medicine uses the scientific method to determine efficacy – not surveys.

That is factually incorrect. Self reporting surveys are widely used in medicine and epidemiology studies. But, feel free to dismiss those as well.

So that is why it takes years to bring new drugs to the market. It isn`t the time it takes for clinical trials to be conducted under strict controls, but rather just dish out the drug for a few years and then conduct a survey to see if people report that it made them feel better. Who knew?

I see my previous comment had an ambiguity. My bad. Allow me to clarify.

Yes, one of the ways medicine determines efficacy is using data from clinical studies (scientific method). That is the preferred method. But contrary to your other claim, medicine and epidemiology do in fact ALSO use self reporting surveys to get useful data about a wide variety of things.

The inherent limitations of self reporting studies are already well known. You have not told us anything new there. But that does not mean they are useless, as you seem to be claiming. I will again remind you that if you dismiss studies based on self reporting surveys, then you have just dismissed the Branas study I cited earlier. Lance will not be happy about that.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:10 pm

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/2-shot-in-aurora-late-friday

3 robbery suspects shot in Aurora late Friday, 1 dead
Wayne Harrison, TheDenverChannel, 10:31 AM, May 30, 2015

AURORA, Colo. - Three suspected robbers were shot late Friday night in Aurora and one of them has died, police said Saturday.

It happened during an armed robbery attempt at the Bayberry Condominiums at 431 S. Kalispell Way, near East Alameda Avenue, Aurora police said.

Two of the gunshot victims were rushed to the hospital. One of them -- a juvenile suspect -- later died.

The third robbery suspect walked into an area hospital with a gunshot wound to the shoulder, according to police. His injuries are non-life threatening and he is being held on un-related charges.

All three suspected robbers are between 16 and 20 years of age.

Police said three men were moving into a condo when several young men approached them, pulled a gun and demanded money.

Police said one of victims of the holdup attempt was concerned for his and his friend's safety and pulled out his own gun, firing at the robbery suspects. ...

In a followup story,

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/05/31/da-on-aurora-triple-shooting-statutorily-codified-self-defense/

District Attorney George Brauchler said, "This is straight up regular common sense and statutorily codified self-defense."

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:17 pm

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2015/05/30/cab-driver-shoots-would-be-robber-in-sebastian/28229929/

Cab driver shoots and kills would-be robber in Sebastian
FLORIDA TODAY 6:18 p.m. EDT May 30, 2015

Sebastian Police are investigating an incident in which a would-be robber was shot and killed by a cab driver that two males were attempting to rob early Saturday morning.

According to the department, two males, ages 34 and 36, hailed a cab. After they got in the car, police say one of the passengers held a knife to the man and attempted to rob him.

But the cab driver fought back, retrieving a gun and shooting the subject. Police say both passengers fled the scene following the shooting. ...

The story does not say whether the authorities have determined if this is a valid case of self defense. Need followup story for that.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:39 pm

http://www.examiner.com/article/felony-charge-filed-yakima-bat-attack-on-armed-citizen

Felony charge filed in Yakima bat attack on armed citizen
April 16, 2015 7:41 PM MST, Dave Workman

A 20-year-old man identified as Trevor Zumwalt was charged yesterday in Yakima County Superior Court with felony assault for allegedly attacking an openly-armed citizen at a Wal-Mart last Saturday, the Yakima Herald Republic reported today.

It could have ended up as the kind of incident nationally-known firearms instructor and self-defense expert Massad Ayoob likes to call a “fatal error in the victim selection process.” However, according to the Yakima Herald Republic, Brandon Walker used a considerable amount of restraint, holding Zumwalt at gunpoint until police arrived.

... One thing this incident underscores is that legally-armed citizens, including those who open carry, are not the trigger-happy loons as they are often portrayed in editorial cartoons or by the gun prohibition lobby. ...

Red added by me.

More details here:
http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/local/charges-filed-in-wal-mart-bat-attack/article_9783c84f-30a8-59e5-bc6f-4ecdbc673c09.html

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:48 pm

http://www.wisn.com/news/milwaukee-man-shoots-intruder-in-garage/33336242

Milwaukee man shoots intruder in garage
UPDATED 7:49 PM CDT Jun 01, 2015

MILWAUKEE —A garage break-in ended in gunfire Monday morning near 49th Street and Meinecke Avenue.

The Milwaukee homeowner is accused of shooting a would-be burglar. Investigators are now trying to figure out whether he will face charges.

... “He had an alarm on the garage, too, in the house, and when that went off he came outside to check and see what it was, and from my understanding, that when he come toward the garage, (the) dude come straight at him, so he didn't have no choice but to shoot him, you know,” Moseby said. ...

If the bad guy is in the garage, then the homeowner is in no immediate threat and should call the police and stay inside. But when the bad guy charges the homeowner, that changes the rules of engagement.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:54 pm

This is a followup to a previous story, viewtopic.php?p=462753#p462753
in which one of the suspects ran away and the police did not know who he was. Now they do:

MDOC: Suspect in weekend kidnapping was correctional officer
Posted: May 20, 2015 10:23 AM PST, Posted by Brad Conaway

JACKSON, MS (Mississippi News Now) - On Wednesday, Corrections Commissioner Marshall Fisher approved immediate suspension without pay of a correctional officer charged in a kidnapping, armed robbery and homicide that occurred in Jackson on Saturday morning.

... He is charged with capital murder, robbery and kidnapping in a case involving an Eastover homeowner.

His partner in crime was shot and killed in what police are calling justifiable homicide. ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:23 am

http://www.wsmv.com/story/29207977/metro-atlanta-liquor-store-customer-shoots-man-on-killing-spree

Liquor store customer shoots man on killing spree
Posted: Jun 01, 2015 9:57 AM PST, By Daniel Wilkerson

CONYERS, GA (CBS46) - A customer of a Rockdale County liquor store said he opened fire on a gunman who shot and killed a store owner and another customer.

... Police said Jeffrey Scott Pitts, 36, became disgruntled when the owner of the Magnet Package Store in Conyers refused to sell him liquor.

... Police said Pitts left the liquor store, but later returned and opened fire on the owner and customers.

“I assume that this man was not going to stop, so I came up,” said Scott. Scott was carrying a weapon and fired a shot at Pitts. He said he is not sure whether Pitts was struck.

... Police said Pitts left the liquor store and went home where he lives with his parents. Pitts allegedly shot his father and his mother who are hospitalized in stable condition. Officers said Pitts then turn a high-powered rifle toward them. Police then shot and killed Pitts.

This example illustrates several points that the gun grabbers repeatedly get wrong.

1. If a bad guy with a gun comes into a store, you cannot assume he does not intend to kill anyone.

2. How many more people in that store would the bad guy have killed if there had not been a good guy with a gun to scare him off?

3. Bill Maher is wrong when he mocks responsible law abiding citizens for carrying a gun with them to the store.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:45 am

xouper wrote:
... One thing this incident underscores is that legally-armed citizens, including those who open carry, are not the trigger-happy loons as they are often portrayed in editorial cartoons or by the gun prohibition lobby. ...

Red added by me.


Quite a claim. Hard to find such uniformity in the non-gun carrying humanz.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:52 am

xouper wrote:This example illustrates several points that the gun grabbers repeatedly get wrong.

1. If a bad guy with a gun comes into a store, you cannot assume he does not intend to kill anyone.

2. How many more people in that store would the bad guy have killed if there had not been a good guy with a gun to scare him off?

3. Bill Maher is wrong when he mocks responsible law abiding citizens for carrying a gun with them to the store.


Hav you ever heard that from me? Not that I'm agreeing with you about any aspect uv your little list.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:35 am

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:This example illustrates several points that the gun grabbers repeatedly get wrong.

1. If a bad guy with a gun comes into a store, you cannot assume he does not intend to kill anyone.

2. How many more people in that store would the bad guy have killed if there had not been a good guy with a gun to scare him off?

3. Bill Maher is wrong when he mocks responsible law abiding citizens for carrying a gun with them to the store.

Hav you ever heard that from me? Not that I'm agreeing with you about any aspect uv your little list.

By not agreeing with my list, you just answered your own question, "yes, we have now just heard that from you."

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:39 am

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
... One thing this incident underscores is that legally-armed citizens, including those who open carry, are not the trigger-happy loons as they are often portrayed in editorial cartoons or by the gun prohibition lobby. ...

Red added by me.

Quite a claim. Hard to find such uniformity in the non-gun carrying humanz.

Your lack of reading comprehension has again failed you. Please read that again. It is not a claim about what all "non-gun carrying humanz" think, it is a claim only about certain cartoonists and certain political lobby groups.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:01 am

I don't usually watch Fox News, but on this morning's episode of "The Five", Geraldo Rivera said something so utterly ignorant, I don't know how to respond. He asked, “When was the last time you heard of a civilian stopping a crime with a gun?”

WTF?? :shockd: :shockd: :shockd:

Uh, gee, Geraldo, I can't remember the exact time, but it was sometime earlier today. And yesterday, and the day before that, and ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:57 am

xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
... One thing this incident underscores is that legally-armed citizens, including those who open carry, are not the trigger-happy loons as they are often portrayed in editorial cartoons or by the gun prohibition lobby. ...

Red added by me.

Quite a claim. Hard to find such uniformity in the non-gun carrying humanz.

Your lack of reading comprehension has again failed you. Please read that again. It is not a claim about what all "non-gun carrying humanz" think, it is a claim only about certain cartoonists and certain political lobby groups.


Your lack uv reading comprehension haz agen failed you. Pleez reread the red hilited sentens agen and my sarcastic comment on it. Then, to proov you actually get it, explain how it relates to the IQ score bell curve.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:47 pm

JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
JO 753 wrote:
xouper wrote:
... One thing this incident underscores is that legally-armed citizens, including those who open carry, are not the trigger-happy loons as they are often portrayed in editorial cartoons or by the gun prohibition lobby. ...

Red added by me.

Quite a claim. Hard to find such uniformity in the non-gun carrying humanz.

Your lack of reading comprehension has again failed you. Please read that again. It is not a claim about what all "non-gun carrying humanz" think, it is a claim only about certain cartoonists and certain political lobby groups.

Your lack uv reading comprehension haz agen failed you. Pleez reread the red hilited sentens agen and my sarcastic comment on it. Then, to proov you actually get it, explain how it relates to the IQ score bell curve.

There is too much ambiguity in your comment to assume what you meant. There are too many possible interpretations. Please be more explicit.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:59 pm

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:54 pm


Yet another non-answer. You lose by default.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:54 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote: Did I catch that right – surveys asked respondents if they had used a gun defensively heroically?

ftfy

Gawdzilla is right again. Here's another example (an update to a recent story):

http://www.rockdalenews.com/section/1/article/22290/

... Rockdale County Sheriff's Office staged a press conference to give updates on the investigation.

... One customer, Todd Scott, returned fired from a handgun from the back of the store at Pitts, effectively saving the lives of those around him, according to Rockdale Eric Levett.

"I consider him to be a hero," said Levett about the 44-year-old Covington resident. "Although we did have a fatality at that location, he did save some other lives that were inside that business."

Nicely called, Gawdzilla. Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett agrees with you.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:10 am

http://fox21news.com/2015/06/01/man-accused-of-cutting-stranger-at-gas-station/

Man accused of cutting stranger at gas station
By Angela Case Published: June 1, 2015, 3:51 pm

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — A man is accused of cutting a stranger pumping gas at a station in western Colorado Springs Friday afternoon.

... [the suspect] Gomez then started yelling that he was going to cut the victim, and started walking toward him. Police said the victim didn’t think anything would happen, because he didn’t know Gomez or know why he was upset. Gomez cut the victim on the hand.

Then, in self-defense, the victim pulled a gun out of his car and pointed it at Gomez, who ran from the scene.

Police conducted a K9 search and found that Gomez had recently run from the laundry room of an apartment complex. He was found a short time later hiding in bushes in the alley behind the complex.

This is yet another example that shows it is not safe to assume the bad guy does not intend to hurt you.

Since the victim was injured prior to using his gun, this might not be considered a complete success.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:23 am

HCSO: Smoke shop employee fights back, shoots intruder to death
Author: Marisa Breese, News Associate Producer
Published On: Jun 02 2015 06:07:56 AM CDT Updated On: Jun 02 2015 12:30:55 PM CDT

HOUSTON - An employee at a northwest Harris County smoke shop decided to fight back, and shot a would-be thief who entered the store Monday night.

Harris County Sheriff's Office deputies said a dark-colored SUV pulled into the parking lot of Happy Daze Smoke Shops on Antoine Drive and Frick Road around 10 p.m.

According to the store owner, four masked men got out of the SUV and walked inside.

At least one of the four men had a gun, but he didn't even have a chance to open fire. The store employee pulled out his gun and fired a shot, hitting one of the masked men.

At that point, all four men ran outside, including the one who was shot. That man stumbled before collapsing right outside of the store, in front of the getaway car.

The three other men took off, leaving the fourth man lying in the parking lot. He died on the scene. ...

When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:45 am

This next story's title is potentially confusing, especially if it leads you to think that being shot dead in 2015 had something to do with the 2010 (not guilty) case. I had to read the story twice to untangle the meaning of the poorly written headline.

http://myfox8.com/2015/06/02/nc-man-found-not-guilty-in-self-defense-murder-shot-dead/

NC man found not guilty in self-defense murder shot dead
Posted 6:07 pm, June 2, 2015, by Paul Choate, Updated at 06:20pm, June 2, 2015

BURKE COUNTY, N.C. — A death investigation is underway in Burke County after a shooting west of Morganton, according to WSOC.

Terry Lingerfelt claimed self-defense in the 2010 shooting death of Scott Gragg and was found not guilty in 2013.

On Monday, Lingerfelt was shot to death by a man who claims it was self-defense.

Connie Hartzog told WSOC Lingerfelt came to her home on Monday night, where he did doughnuts in her yard and claimed she had called the police on him. She said when he threatened her with his knife, her son intervened.

Hours later, Hartzog said Lingerfelt returned with two firearms. When he fired a shot at her son, striking him in the hand, her son shot and killed him.

There have been no charges filed in the shooting as of Tuesday.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby JO 753 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:10 am

xouper wrote:

Yet another non-answer. You lose by default.


Lets see if sumwun else can make sens uv it.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:45 am

xouper wrote:

Yet another non-answer. You lose by default.


Wait just a moment there. I seem to recall someone saying that it isn`t about winning or losing....

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:50 am

TJrandom wrote:
xouper wrote:

Yet another non-answer. You lose by default.

Wait just a moment there. I seem to recall someone saying that it isn`t about winning or losing....

Is THAT the part that got your panties in a twist? Never mind that JO is trying to poke holes in my position using faulty arguments, and all you can be bothered to quibble about is a nit-picking detail like that? Seriously?


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