Examples of successful self defense with a gun

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Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:30 pm

An ignorant comment in another thread inspired me to start this thread to list examples of successful self defense with a gun, as I find them in the news.

... self defense end use is crap. So owning or carrying a handgun for self defense should not be permitted.

Tell that to the people I will be posting about in this thread.

Good luck convincing them (or me) they have no right to defend themselves with their gun.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:31 pm

http://wkrn.com/2015/03/31/la-vergne-store-owner-shoots-kills-man-after-box-cutter-attack/

La Vergne store owner shoots, kills would-be robber after box cutter attack
By Nadia Ramdass Published: March 31, 2015, 10:15 am Updated: March 31, 2015, 5:14 pm

LA VERGNE, Tenn. (WKRN) – A man was shot and killed Monday night after police say he attacked a store owner with a box cutter in La Vergne.

It happened just after 10:30 p.m. at the Discount Tobacco and Beer in the 5400 block of Murfreesboro Road.

Police told News 2 the store owner and another person were standing outside when a man identified as Jamie Sellars came from behind the building and asked if the store was open.

The store owner told Sellars they were closed before he was attacked a box cutter, slicing his neck.

... The owner of the store, who has a carry permit, shot Sellars.

The suspect fled the scene and was found dead a short distance away by a K9 unit.

The store owner was treated at the scene for his injuries.

The store owner is currently not facing any charges.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:35 pm

http://www.whas11.com/story/news/local/2015/03/27/j-town-liquor-store-clerk-shoots-robber-who-flees-to-urgent-care/70579374/

J-town liquor store clerk shoots robber who flees to urgent care
Doug Proffitt 8:52 p.m. EDT March 28, 2015

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WHAS11) -- A liquor store clerk fires back in Jeffersontown and shoots a would-be robber Friday, March 27, who then makes it to an urgent care center.

Jeffersontown Police Chief Rick Sanders tells WHAS11 NEWS it all happened at Kute's Liquors on Watterson Trail across from the J-town Fire Department.

The chief said a man came into Kute's and demanded that the clerk walk to the back of the store.

When the clerk wouldn't do it, the man pulled out a gun and pointed it right at the clerk.

The chief says the clerk then pulled a gun from behind the counter and shot the would-be robber once in the chest.

The man made it out of the store and police discovered him just a few streets over in the parking lot of the Baptist Health Care Urgent Care Center on Taylorsville Road.

... The clerk of Kute's was not hurt and is not facing any charges.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:45 pm

http://inforney.com/texas/item/3057-homeowner-burglars-exchange-gunfire-in-attempted-garland-home-invasion-one-shot

Homeowner, burglars exchange gunfire in attempted Garland home invasion, one shot
Written by Staff Report, Friday, 27 March 2015 17:04

GARLAND, Texas — Police say a homeowner and two burglars exchanged gunfire early Friday morning in an attempted home invasion burglary — leaving one burglar wounded.

The Garland Police Department reports the incident occurred just after 7 a.m. on Friday, March 27, 2015, when police received a 911 call about gunshots in the 5200 block of Hollow Bend Lane.

... No injuries were reported for the individuals who live in the home but police say one of the burglars had been shot.

The two burglars were located in the area and taken into custody. ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:53 pm

http://www.news-record.com/news/crime/son-shoots-dad-in-knee-in-randolph-county-family-fight/article_ecef3ac4-d3ec-11e4-9892-b7fb94c600ab.html

Son shoots dad in knee in Randolph County family fight
Posted: Thursday, March 26, 2015 3:18 pm, Staff Report

TRINITY — Randolph County deputies responding to a family fight this afternoon found an intoxicated 51-year-old man had been shot in the knee by his son, according to a news release from the sheriff's office.

At 12:40 p.m., deputies responded to 2545 Parrish Farm Road and found Mitchell Grant Barr, 51, injured, according to the release.

Investigators determined that Barr had argued with family members and assaulted his mother at the residence before being asked to leave the property, the release states.

However, Barr continued making threats and arguing from the roadway in front of home, according to the release. His 21-year-old son went inside and retrieved a rifle to discourage his father from coming back on to the property, according to the release.

Barr came back onto the property, indicated he was prepared to die and attempted to get a rifle from his car, at which point his son shot Barr in the knee, according to the release.

... After consultation about the incident, both sheriff's investigators and the Randolph County District Attorney’s Office agreed that the shooting was a matter of self-defense and no charges will not be filed against the 21-year-old ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:08 pm

Anecdata fail.

Surely you are aware that every such story can be easily matched with a disastrous one.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:34 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:Anecdata fail.

On the contrary, what these anecdotes do is disprove the common assertion that guns cannot be used successfully for self defense.

That is my primary purpose here.

OlegTheBatty wrote:Surely you are aware that every such story can be easily matched with a disastrous one.

Not true. There are far more successes than failures. Many such successes never make the news because no one got shot.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:42 pm

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/two_detroit_residents_charged.html

Police say 11-year-old girl used her own shotgun to scare off robbers in Lapeer County
Roberto Acosta, on February 02, 2015 at 4:17 PM, updated February 03, 2015 at 10:04 AM

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl used the shotgun she normally keeps to go hunting with her father to scare off a robber in her home, police said.

The girl was alone at her North Branch Township home on Five Lakes Road about 3:45 p.m. on Jan. 30 when police said she surprised burglars who had broken into the house.

The girl hid in a bathroom closet, where she grabbed her shotgun that police said she stores in a gun safe.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the girl -- whose parents were due home from work a short time later -- pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

"The 12-gauge shotgun is her weapon," said Lapeer County Sheriff Detective Sgt. Jason Parks. "She and her father are into hunting and avid sportsmen. She was familiar with that weapon."

Parks praised the girl's responsibility, poise and composure.

"She is fully capable of staying there by herself as we can clearly see based on this situation," he said. "She was able to defend herself from an intruder and be able to resolve an event even most adults would be taken aback by."

Added Parks, "She is fully capable of making sound, good decisions," he said. "And be a protector of her home." ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:03 pm

You're talking to yourself again, Xoups. You know that makes you look like a crazy person.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:56 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:You're talking to yourself again, Xoups. You know that makes you look like a crazy person.

Who are you talking to?
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:29 pm

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/mar/28/shots-killed-robber-justifiable/295771/

Shots that killed robber at Miller Auto Sales 'justifiable'
March 28th, 2015 by Kendi Anderson

Chattanooga officers investigate the scene of a robbery and shooting on Rossville Boulevard.

... Miller shot a man twice in the chest as he attempted to rob Miller Auto Sales, located at 4314 Rossville Blvd. Police say the shots Miller fired were in self-defense, and charges will not be filed against him.

"If you, yourself or another's life is in danger, you have the right to protect yourself," said Chattanooga police Sgt. Scott Bales. ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:34 pm

http://www.newson6.com/story/28557994/84-year-old-man-sends-tulsa-robber-running-in-fear

84-Year-Old Man Sends Tulsa Robber Running In Fear
Posted: Mar 18, 2015, Lori Fullbright

TULSA, Oklahoma - An 84-year-old man was able to turn the tables on a robber who hit him in the face and took his wallet.

... Video shows Jandebeur walked to his black truck when the robber came up behind him.

“The guy starts saying, ‘Don't turn around, don't turn around,'" Jandebeur said.

At first he thought it was one of his buddies playing a trick until the robber punched him in the side of the face.

"I felt him take my billfold out and he head over to the door where my wife was," said Jandebeur.

The robber stopped near the door - like he was looking inside the billfold – then, all of a sudden, he took off running.

We asked what scared the man off, Jandebeur said, "I pulled out my automatic and was getting ready to ventilate him."

... "Once he saw my gun he decided to leave," Jandebeur said.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:50 pm

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/03/31/female-homeowner-shoots-alleged-intruder-to-save-brother/

Female Homeowner Shoots Alleged Intruder to Save Brother
by AWR Hawkins 31 Mar 2015

At about 3:40 a.m. on March 30, a Detroit female homeowner retrieved her gun and ran downstairs, where she fired multiple shots and wounded one of two alleged intruders, leaving him in critical condition.

According to ABC 7, the female homeowner was awakened by sounds of a “scuffle” downstairs that erupted between her brother and the two alleged intruders. She grabbed her gun and rushed downstairs to intervene.

After the homeowner fired multiple shots, the two suspects fled. Moments later, one of the alleged intruders–a 21-year-old–showed up at St. John Hospital asking for treatment. He was bleeding and is now in critical condition.

Click on Detroit reports that when police spoke to the 21-year-old, he did not mention a home invasion but told them “that someone shot him on Chandler Park and he called his cousin to take him to the hospital.”

Neighbors interviewed about the incident said they would have done the same thing the female homeowner did. ...

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Flash » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:18 am

Xouper:
What your examples of successful self defence show is that one needs a gun in an inherently violent and unjust society and that paranoia rules supreme anyway in the USA.

I don't know if you realize, other civilized countries don't have the same problems.There, citizens don't have to be afraid of each other and arm themselves to the teeth when going out shopping.

But if you have half of the population of the richest country in the world impoverished, racial hatred and discrimination, worker exploitation, failing and self-destructing cities, murderous militarized police force, money compromised democracy, emerging oligarchy, oppressive legal system, most prisoners on the planet, black torture sites (Chicago police), crumbling infrastructure and the perpetual war abroad... no wonder that the kind of society America has become is violent and unjust.

Constitution or no Constitution, Americans need guns. And the bigger the better of course. The writer Hunter Thompson had a 50 cal. machine gun mounted in his living room in Nevada. Now, that's what I am talking about. The stopping power that will speak volumes to other Americans. Like, don't {!#%@} come here. Don't even talk to me or I'll pull the trigger and you'll see what this gun can do, eh? :mrgreen:
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:45 pm

You overstate the case to an extent. The great majority of Americans are not obsessed with guns. But the noisy minority gets all the attention. And they are dangerous. But they are most dangerous to themselves and the people immediately around them.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:01 pm

I just finished watching the morning national news – and can reliably report that there were 127.3 million (give or take a few thousand) people who were defended and owe their lives to the fact that Japan has so few guns, and that not a single person was shot. Think about that, will ya – 127.3 million examples of non-shot citizens due to no guns, vs what – nearly 7 a day shot on average for Chicago alone in March.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:22 pm

Flash wrote:I don't know if you realize, other civilized countries don't have the same problems.

Here is a list of countries that have a higher violent crime rate (per 100,000) than the US:

2034 UK
1677 Austria
1123 Sweden
1006 Belgium
935 Canada
738 Finland
676 Netherlands
565 Luxembourg
504 France
466 US

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:36 pm

TJrandom wrote:I just finished watching the morning national news – and can reliably report that there were 127.3 million (give or take a few thousand) people who were defended and owe their lives to the fact that Japan has so few guns, and that not a single person was shot. Think about that, will ya – 127.3 million examples of non-shot citizens due to no guns, vs what – nearly 7 a day shot on average for Chicago alone in March.

Your argument contains a tautology. Of course no one will get shot if there are no guns, just as no one will get killed by a drunk driver if there are no cars, and no children would drown in a swimming pool if there were no swimming pools. Such an argument is not at all useful.

If all the guns in the US were to vanish tomorrow, the remaining crime rate would still be higher than in Japan. The crime rate is due to cultural factors, not to the number of guns. To argue that guns are the problem is to commit a statistical fallacy of assuming correlation implies causation.

In any case, the point of this thread is to make explicit that fact that if you take away people's guns, then you deprive the above people of a very effective means to defend themselves. Can you look those people in the eye and tell them they should not have a gun to defend themselves?

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:07 pm

xouper wrote: ... Your argument contains a tautology. Of course no one will get shot if there are no guns, just as no one will get killed by a drunk driver if there are no cars, and no children would drown in a swimming pool if there were no swimming pools. Such an argument is not at all useful.

If all the guns in the US were to vanish tomorrow, the remaining crime rate would still be higher than in Japan. The crime rate is due to cultural factors, not to the number of guns. To argue that guns are the problem is to commit a statistical fallacy of assuming correlation implies causation.

In any case, the point of this thread is to make explicit that fact that if you take away people's guns, then you deprive the above people of a very effective means to defend themselves. Can you look those people in the eye and tell them they should not have a gun to defend themselves?


Not a tautology - Japan does have guns - fewer of course, but no right to carry, use in defense, etc. We have a deaths by guns rate of 0.06 per 100,000 people. And I didn`t make an argument - I just listed a few million examples of societal defense of individual rights to life and liberty without guns. I can probably do so again tomorrow....

I certainly acknowledge the difference in crime rate - not having guns helps reduce ours since our bad guys are less apt to kill... wait for it... with guns.

As for looking people in the eye and saying that they shouldn`t have a gun to defend themselves - that is an easy YES - indeed, IMO they should not have that right. Of course they do have it - due to laws that the American society has enacted, but those laws can (and IMO should) be changed.

In the worst case scenario – say those people in your examples were killed by the bad guys… Then the police hunt down the bad guys and they get killed/locked up/and those guns taken out of circulation. Fewer guns now, fewer future deaths by guns.

Now for all of the people who were killed by guns – can you look them in the eye and say that their deaths were righteous because you have a right to own a gun? Of course not – because they are already dead – but were you able to see into their future, could you say – Oh, BTW, tomorrow you will be cut down by a stray bullet – too bad for you, but it is the price you must pay for my right to own a gun. Could you?

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:29 pm

TJrandom wrote:Not a tautology - Japan does have guns - fewer of course, but no right to carry, use in defense, etc. We have a deaths by guns rate of 0.06 per 100,000 people. And I didn`t make an argument ...

So, you are NOT arguing that the US should get rid of its guns because of the Japanese experience?

What do you call the following if not an "argument"?

TJrandom wrote:Fewer guns now, fewer future deaths by guns.

Of course. And fewer swimming pools means fewer children die from drowning in swimming pools. And fewer cars means fewer people are killed by drunk drivers. Your argument is specious.

TJrandom wrote:As for looking people in the eye and saying that they shouldn`t have a gun to defend themselves - that is an easy YES - indeed, IMO they should not have that right. Of course they do have it - due to laws that the American society has enacted, but those laws can (and IMO should) be changed.

Thanks for explaining. Apparently this is where we disagree.

TJrandom wrote:Now for all of the people who were killed by guns – can you look them in the eye and say that their deaths were righteous because you have a right to own a gun? Of course not – because they are already dead – but were you able to see into their future, could you say – Oh, BTW, tomorrow you will be cut down by a stray bullet – too bad for you, but it is the price you must pay for my right to own a gun. Could you?

Yes I can. Because my right to own a gun did not cause any of those deaths. Blame the bad guys, do not blame me or my right to self defense.

While it is indeed tragic, there are only about 300 incidents with stray bullets per year, not enough to offset the huge number of people who successfully used a gun for self defense. You're asking me to sacrifice a huge number of people to save a mere 300 per year. Does not make sense to me.

Can you look in the eyes of those who lost family members killed by drunk drivers and say that's the price they pay for your privilege to drive a car? Can you look in the eyes of a parent who lost a child who drowned in a swimming pool and say that's the price they pay for your right to have a swimming pool? Of course you can, we all do it.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:57 am

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/police-investigating-carjacking-shooting-smyrna/nkmcY/

Updated: 8:40 p.m. Friday, April 3, 2015 | Posted: 4:55 p.m. Friday, April 3, 2015
City worker shoots carjacking suspect after woman jumps on hood of stolen car

SMYRNA, Ga. — A Smyrna city worker shot a man who was attempting to carjack a woman's vehicle on Friday, authorities said.

... The good Samaritan was identified as a City of Smyrna employee who was getting his car washed. Police said his quick action saved the woman's life.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Flash » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:36 am

Flash wrote:
I don't know if you realize, other civilized countries don't have the same problems.

Xouper:
Here is a list of countries that have a higher violent crime rate (per 100,000) than the US:

2034 UK
1677 Austria
1123 Sweden
1006 Belgium
935 Canada
738 Finland
676 Netherlands
565 Luxembourg
504 France
466 US

The misleading statistics are like lies Xouper. Surely you must know it. Wasn't it P.T. Barnum (although I might be wrong) who said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"?

I don't know where you pulled those figures from but if they are right then they only show violent crimes and not intentional, unintentional and police homicides. A punchup at the bar counts as a violent crime as well as spitting on somebody. There is a big difference between a bar scuffle and making a hole in someone's head by firing a gun don't you think?

In fact, as taken from the Intentional Homicide Rates table for 2012 published by Wiki all these European countries have a homicide rate between 1 and 2 per 100000 people. Canada has 1.6. The US has the rate of 4.7.

St. Pierre and Miquelon islands, a tiny French islands 25 km from Newfoundland have an astounding rate of 16.5/100000 with just one murder in 2012. And that's because the population is small, 6000 people and to get the rate per 100000 one has to multiply it by almost 17. It well illustrates the limits of statistics.

Actually, with the number of guns in circulation in America, the highest in the world, the country doesn't come out too badly. The countries with fewer guns per population like Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, even Russia have a higher intentional homicide rates than the US. But what it all shows is that if the guns are easily available they are used, culture or no culture.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:47 am

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:
Flash wrote:I don't know if you realize, other civilized countries don't have the same problems.

Here is a list of countries that have a higher violent crime rate (per 100,000) than the US: ...

The misleading statistics are like lies Xouper. Surely you must know it. Wasn't it P.T. Barnum (although I might be wrong) who said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

I was hoping I could trick someone into making that point, because that is the point I actually wanted to make.

When people try to justify adding more restrictions to gun ownership in the US, they often trot out cherry picked statistics to "prove" their case. But as you correctly observe, it's easy to lie with statistics.

I also wanted others here to know that if they think they can get away with doing that, I hope they will keep in mind I can do it just as effectively right back at them. And then when they try to discredit my statistics, they inadvertently discredit their own for the same reason. :D 8-)

The statistic that impresses me the most is the one that shows what happens to the crime rate before and after a major gun ban. Sure, gun crimes go down, but there is usually a surge in other violent crimes. Focusing only on gun crimes, or only on homicide rates, misses the bigger picture in my opinion. That's why I started this thread.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:16 am

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/04/greg-gutfeld-gun-control-losing-because-americans-refuse-to-feel-guilty-over-self-defense/

Gun Control Losing Because Americans Refuse to Feel Guilty over Self-Defense
by AWR Hawkins, 4 Apr 2015

On April 3, Fox News’ host Greg Gutfeld explained that the media’s gun control arguments increasingly fall on deaf ears because Americans refuse to feel guilty over using guns for self-defense.

Gutfeld said, “No matter how hard the establishment media tries, they can’t convince good people how bad guns are when they’re in the right hands.”

... Detroit residents have simply come to realize that good guys with guns really can protect their own lives and the lives of their neighbors. They have also realized that being armed helps bring stability to their community.

In the real world, these realizations are drowning out anything that gun controllers might say to the contrary.


I just thought that editorial might be appropriate for the theme of this thread.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:39 pm

http://wjcl.com/2015/03/31/investigators-beaufort-fatal-shooting-was-self-defense/

Investigators: Beaufort fatal shooting was self-defense
By Christopher Buchanan Published: March 31, 2015

HILTON HEAD, S.C. (WJCL) — A mother has been identified in the shooting death of her son in Beaufort County Monday— and she’s not currently facing charges.

The initial investigation identified the person who shot William Bryant as his mother, Marilou Bryant.

Thus far, investigation has uncovered substantial evidence to support she was acting in defense of another when firing the fatal bullets.

The investigation has revealed the 6 foot 5 inch, 230 pound, former military serviceman made recent threats of violence towards his grandmother and mother.

It has also revealed, the son was behaving aggressively and attempting to enter his 91-year-old grandmother’s bedroom when Marilou Bryant intervened and shot him with a handgun.

... At this time she is not being charged in connection with this incident.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:21 pm

http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2014/10/04/man-halts-robbery-kills-two-suspects/16714947/

Man halts robbery, kills two suspects
Alice Barr, KHOU 11:43 p.m. CDT October 4, 2014

HOUSTON -- Just after closing around 2:30 Saturday morning, four armed men barged in at EJ's Place demanding money.

Instead, a customer inside the bar, which is located on the 16500 block of Kuykendahl Road, pulled out his gun and started exchanging fire with the robbers. He shot and killed two of them while the other two ran. Once the heated exchange ended, the patron left, too.

... Most folks driving by EJ's Place Saturday afternoon thought the patron there was in the right.

"He has his right to protect himself and his family and his friends," said Charles Webb. "It's just unfortunate something like that happened."

Another neighbor, Danielle Russell, added, "Being a mom, yeah, I would feel safe knowing that he has a gun and he's going to protect me in a robbery."

But a sign in the bar window clearly states it's a felony to carry a gun inside. Under Texas law, even licensed carriers can't have guns in bars. That could explain why the patron left.

... Another longtime customer said that the patron who killed the robbers always stays until closing to walk the female bartenders to their cars. The friend said the man would never start anything, but would always protect his friends.

"It's sad. It's unfortunate that we live in that type of world," said Webb.

Although the above example is from last October, I wanted to include it here to show two things.

The gun control organization called Moms Demand Action often pressures retailers to post signs prohibiting guns in the store. Yeah right, as if criminals intent on robbing the place will read that sign and leave their guns in the car. Clearly such a sign does not stop criminals, it only stops the good guys. Shame on you MDA.

Secondly, the question is often asked, why do you feel the need to carry a gun when you go shopping or dining, etc. Sadly, the above example shows why. It is not a hypothetical example.

It is unfortunate that the good guy with a gun is facing possible criminal charges for carrying in a bar, even though he may well have saved several lives. Even though the good guy seems to be well known by other patrons, no seems willing to rat on him. I'm not surprised.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:32 pm

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/butler-county/middletown/jawad-jabbar-middletown-teen-police-polic-man-killed-middletown-teen-at-dayton-mall-in-self-defense-

Police: Man killed Middletown teen at Dayton Mall in self defense
Jay Warren

MIAMI TWP., OHIO - A 16-year-old Middletown High School football player wanted to buy the new Air Jordans on sale Saturday morning at the Dayton Mall.

But Jawaad Jabbar got there too late and the shoes were gone. So Jabbar tried to rob a pair from another shopper, police said, and he paid with his life.

"The juvenile wasn't able to get in line in time or whatever to get some of these shoes," Miami Twp. police Sgt. Jay Phares said.

So Jabbar went outside to the sidewalk and pulled a gun on a man who had just bought the shoes, Phares said.

Only, the man had a gun, too.

"The person who he tried to take the shoes from had a valid carry concealed weapon permit through Ohio, and when he was threatened with a firearm he drew his firearm and discharged it into the juvenile, who then died as a result of a single gunshot wound," Phares said.

... Two other teens who were with Jabbar ran from the scene, police said. The man who shot Jabbar stayed at the scene and does not face any charges, police said.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:44 am

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/04/concealed-permit-holder-pulls-gun-foils-alleged-armed-robbery/

Concealed Permit Holder Pulls Gun, Foils Alleged Armed Robbery
by AWR Hawkins 4 Apr 2015

On March 29, an Akron, Ohio concealed carry permit holder drew his gun to foil an alleged robbery attempt by two suspects, one of whom allegedly pulled a gun and demanded his “belongings” after he met them to buy a PlayStation game system.

The concealed permit holder met 22-year-old Natasha N. Brady to buy the game system she was supposedly selling. Brady tried to the talk the concealed permit holder into going behind the house, and when he refused, a second suspect emerged and allegedly pulled a gun to conduct a robbery.

According to Fox 8 Cleveland, the concealed permit holder drew his own gun, told the suspect to drop his and to “get on the ground.” Instead, the suspect allegedly dropped his gun and “fled on foot.” ...

This is another example of a successful use of a gun for self defense where no shots were fired and no one got killed.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Doubting Thomas » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:56 am

I have been following this debate and appreciate the arguments presented from both sides but there seems to be one aspect that has received little attention. First I would like to preface my comments by stating that I have no particular preference, as I have hardly ever used a firearm since leaving Vietnam in 1970.

My concern is what the ramifications would be if suddenly guns were banned in the United States. A century ago there was a very strong movement to ban the sale of alcohol. The proponents were eventually successful but it quickly became clear that the problems that it caused were far greater than anyone anticipated. Prohibition was eventually ended a few years later and we now know it was a foolish endeavor. I have the same concern regarding legal gun ownership as it exists today. If we learned anything from prohibition it should be that the devil we know is often far better than the devil we want.
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. – William Shakespeare

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby clarsct » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:08 am

Doubting Thomas wrote:I have been following this debate and appreciate the arguments presented from both sides but there seems to be one aspect that has received little attention. First I would like to preface my comments by stating that I have no particular preference, as I have hardly ever used a firearm since leaving Vietnam in 1970.

My concern is what the ramifications would be if suddenly guns were banned in the United States. A century ago there was a very strong movement to ban the sale of alcohol. The proponents were eventually successful but it quickly became clear that the problems that it caused were far greater than anyone anticipated. Prohibition was eventually ended a few years later and we now know it was a foolish endeavor. I have the same concern regarding legal gun ownership as it exists today. If we learned anything from prohibition it should be that the devil we know is often far better than the devil we want.

I agree completely.

I would also extend this to prostitution, drugs, and many other consensual activites that other people find bad.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:05 am

Who, I wonder, is advocating a total ban of firearms in the US?
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:34 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Who, I wonder, is advocating a total ban of firearms in the US?

If you would like to see a nice big list, I will make the effort to to compile it for you. Or you can google for it yourself.

Here's a sample of those who are on record saying they want a total ban of all firearms in the US.

Senator Dianne Feinstein
Former NY Mayor Ed Koch
Peirs Morgan
The New York Times
Attorney General Eric Holder
Charles Krauthammer
and many more.

In U.S. v. Emerson, 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, 2000, the government is on record as saying that civilians do not have the right to own any firearms.

If they have their way, you can say good-bye to all your guns, Gawdzilla.

The list of those who are record as saying they want to ban all handguns and most rifles, is even longer.

For example:

Barack Obama
and many many more left wing politicians and pundits.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:45 pm

http://americablog.com/2012/12/its-time-to-ban-guns-completely.html

Forget the assault weapons ban, it’s time to ban guns completely
12/14/12 11:00pm by Myrddin 703 Comments

“Agenda denial” is how people in power avoid an argument they think they will lose. Instead of making an argument for their position, they argue that it is “not the right time” to have the argument at all.

... Forget the assault weapons ban, it’s time to ban guns completely

The idea that it is unreasonable to demand a complete ban on guns, while the gun lobby refuses to give an inch, is of course another example of agenda denial.

... It is far past time to call for a total ban on guns. And if it takes a constitutional amendment, so be it.

That is just one example of the media push for a total ban on all firearms.

Anyone who claims no one is trying to take away all our guns, is either lying or hasn't been paying enough attention.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:47 pm

Doubting Thomas wrote:My concern is what the ramifications would be if suddenly guns were banned in the United States. A century ago there was a very strong movement to ban the sale of alcohol. The proponents were eventually successful but it quickly became clear that the problems that it caused were far greater than anyone anticipated. Prohibition was eventually ended a few years later and we now know it was a foolish endeavor. I have the same concern regarding legal gun ownership as it exists today. If we learned anything from prohibition it should be that the devil we know is often far better than the devil we want.

You might find the following editorial interesting:

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

Every place that has been banned guns has seen murder rates go up. You cannot point to one place where murder rates have fallen, whether it’s Chicago or D.C. or even island nations such as England, Jamaica, or Ireland.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:13 pm

http://dailycaller.com/2015/03/27/man-says-if-it-werent-for-his-gun-he-and-his-wife-might-be-dead-video/

Man Says If It Weren’t For His Gun, He And His Wife Might Be Dead
5:42 PM 03/27/2015

A rural Oklahoma man says that if it wasn’t for his gun he doesn’t know what would have happened to him and his wife during a Wednesday night home invasion.

... The men took a screaming Cindy Gilmore into the couples’ bedroom at gunpoint and ordered him to lay on the ground near his couch.

“And I got over between the couch and the coffee table and when I did I went down and put my arm on the coffee table to kind of hide myself and I pulled the drawer open, which I had a gun in there,” Gilmore described.

Gun in hand, Gilmore said he stood up and began shooting, hitting two of the suspects. They fired back but did not injure the couple.

“They had a gun to her head,” Gilmore said. “They could’ve killed her and come right in here and killed me if I hadn’t had a gun.”

... Gilmore will not face any charges on the grounds that he acted in self-defense.

Examples like this illustrate why homeowners should not be required by law to keep their guns locked in a safe when not in use. Responsible gun owners do not need to be protected from their own guns.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby xouper » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:28 pm

What about examples where the victim was denied use of a gun for self defense?

Consider the following disaster (red highlighting added by me):

http://www.ammoland.com/2015/03/dominos-gun-ban-victims-pile-up-delivery-driver-shot-killed/

Domino’s Gun Ban Victims Pile Up: Delivery Driver Shot, Killed in New Orleans
Posted on March 25, 2015, By AWR Hawkins

... Breitbart News has previously reported that Domino’s Pizza bars their drivers from keeping guns with them for self-defense. Sadly, this does not stop armed attackers from preying on the unarmed drivers.

On February 11, I reported at least eight Domino’s Pizza drivers had been shot since January 2012, and three of them died. Now we add the driver killed on March 24 to the list, along with another Domino’s driver who was shot and killed in New Orleans’ Mid-City six months ago.

... In addition to the murders of Domino’s Pizza delivery drivers, unarmed female drivers face the threat of rape and other forms of sexual assault. On Sunday, February 8 2015, a female Domino’s Pizza driver was raped and robbed in broad daylight during a pizza delivery in Antioch, California.

After the rape and robbery, Domino’s Pizza spokesman Tim McIntyre said company executives were “shocked and horrified by what happened.”

... With so many unarmed drivers being shot and killed in the last two years, how can McIntyre or company executives continue to be “shocked?” Their anti-gun policy forces unarmed drivers to carry cash and product into a dangerous world where criminals prey on those incapable of defending themselves.

As Breitbart News reported on February 11 2015, Domino’s gun-ban-by-corporate-fiat model is costing Domino’s Pizza delivery drivers their lives, their dignity, and their peace of mind. It’s time for the company to amend the policy so as to allow drivers with concealed carry permits to keep a gun with them for self-defense.

The term "gun free zone" is a euphemism for "defenseless victim zone". Criminals know this, but liberals don't seem to get it.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:04 pm

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby TJrandom » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:33 pm

xouper wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Not a tautology - Japan does have guns - fewer of course, but no right to carry, use in defense, etc. We have a deaths by guns rate of 0.06 per 100,000 people. And I didn`t make an argument ...

So, you are NOT arguing that the US should get rid of its guns because of the Japanese experience? What do you call the following if not an "argument"?


No – not because of the Japanese experience – but rather because of the US experience… all of those deaths. Japan does fine; could do better, but the US is abysmal IMO. And I don`t advocate the complete elimination of guns for either Japan or the US – just better regulations, limitations, management, etc.

TJrandom wrote:Fewer guns now, fewer future deaths by guns.


xouper wrote:Of course. And fewer swimming pools means fewer children die from drowning in swimming pools. And fewer cars means fewer people are killed by drunk drivers. Your argument is specious.


Your rebuttal/examples are specious. Swimming pools and driving are far more regulated than are guns in the US. Swimming pools: building permits, fencing required, etc. – and they cause far fewer deaths. And if course they were not developed for people to kill other people. Driving: Safety inspections, insurance requirements, drivers license tests, police monitoring of roadways, drunk driver stop`n checks, etc.

TJrandom wrote:Now for all of the people who were killed by guns – can you look them in the eye and say that their deaths were righteous because you have a right to own a gun? Of course not – because they are already dead – but were you able to see into their future, could you say – Oh, BTW, tomorrow you will be cut down by a stray bullet – too bad for you, but it is the price you must pay for my right to own a gun. Could you?

xouper wrote:Yes I can. Because my right to own a gun did not cause any of those deaths. Blame the bad guys, do not blame me or my right to self defense.

While it is indeed tragic, there are only about 300 incidents with stray bullets per year, not enough to offset the huge number of people who successfully used a gun for self defense. You're asking me to sacrifice a huge number of people to save a mere 300 per year. Does not make sense to me.


No… your right to own and use a gun in defense does indeed cause those deaths. Your gun purchase supported the manufacturer; your defense of your constitutional right and non-support for changes in the laws cause those deaths. You need to admit that, and you do IMO when you use the 300 sacrifice as collateral damage for those you claim were saved by having/using guns.

And of course it isn`t just those 300, but far more. More suicides, more killed by police because they thought someone might be armed, etc.

I find you to be callous, as you accept these deaths as inevitable – unless of course you are as active in trying to change other aspects of society that drive the causes of crime – economic helplessness, hunger, poor education, etc. – so that your perceived need for defense by gun is dramatically reduced.

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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:43 pm

And you're not allowed to concealed carry a swimming pool.
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Re: Examples of successful self defense with a gun

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:51 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:And you're not allowed to concealed carry a swimming pool.

Show me one regulation anywhere disallowing it.
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