2nd Amendment

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2nd Amendment

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:25 am

I watched a documentary about gunz in the US a few dayz ago. It wuz a 47 minit National Geographic TV production, mostly about how big the gun violence problem iz.

Watching the story uv an aging member uv the Crips, I realized that he & hiz colleaguez are the real Americanz battling against oppression.

Not just a filisofical argument about big brother gradualy chipping away at liberty. No hypothetical muzingz uv a tyrant impozing hiz wimz on a defensless citizenry. Nun uv the nonsense blathered out by self proclaimed 'patriotic conservativez'. They will go to prizon. Wen they shoot at the cops chasing them, its bekuz its their only hope uv staying free.


Watch it here (maybe)
http://www.juraatmedia.com/watch-online/national-geographic-explorer-guns-in-america-video_9a20bdf97.html

Or buy it here
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-America-Artist-Not-Provided/dp/B001L67A82/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1340965282&sr=1-1&keywords=guns+in+america
(get a cheap used copy or borrow it frum the library. Its not that good, so youre only going to watch it once)

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:45 am

You guys really need your own sub-topic to talk about this {!#%@}, so I can opt-out. Really, no-one else in the world cares and we think you're all just {!#%@} batshit insane and more than happy to let y'all go about murdering each other at will in the name of your personal ideals of freedom. The more you kill each other, the better.

Just keep it to yourself.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Gord » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:27 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:no-one

Right, that's it, I've put up with the hyphenatisation of "no one" for the last time. You aren't allowed to use that term anymore. From now on you have to say "nobody" instead.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:59 pm

Gord wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:no-one

Right, that's it, I've put up with the hyphenatisation of "no one" for the last time. You aren't allowed to use that term anymore. From now on you have to say "nobody" instead.

http://www.xoup.net/peeves/noone.php

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby RubyHypatia » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:01 pm

Have laws against certain drugs deterred their use and abuse? Anyone remember what happened when the government outlawed the sale of alcohol? Yeah, same thing would happen with guns.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Poodle » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:18 pm

Well, that's true, of course.

But then they'd be illegal guns and the people waving them around would be criminals. It's an alternative system (it's the UK I'm talking about) which works, Ruby. Not perfectly, obviously, but it works. Claiming a personal right to bear arms isn't necessarily the right way to go - what about a personal right to be immune from gun-waving idiots?

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby RubyHypatia » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:26 pm

Poodle, you won't be immune from gun-waving idiots if the government outlawed all guns. Gun manufacturing and sales would be driven underground. And in that society it would be only the criminals who had the guns. That's not a society I care to live in.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:27 pm

RubyHypatia wrote:Have laws against certain drugs deterred their use and abuse? Anyone remember what happened when the government outlawed the sale of alcohol? Yeah, same thing would happen with guns.

Exactly.

You can take my god-damned hyphen from my dead-cold QWERTY-keyboard!

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby fromthehills » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:32 pm

Major Malfunction wrote:
RubyHypatia wrote:Have laws against certain drugs deterred their use and abuse? Anyone remember what happened when the government outlawed the sale of alcohol? Yeah, same thing would happen with guns.

Exactly.

You can take my god-damned hyphen from my dead-cold hands!

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It's cold-dead hands. Jeez, get it straight.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby JO 753 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:59 pm

I'm divided between an AK-47 or a Mak-10 with the trigger mod. Dont hav much money, so Ifigure I'll duplicate wutever I get and then resell the original.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Bunyip » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:19 pm

Yeah, same thing would happen with guns.


Whatever.

Trying to rationally discuss gun control with an adherent to America's loopy gun culture is like trying to communicate with people living on Alpha Centauri.

By all means keep your guns and your TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND* gun deaths a year. The rest of the world will continue laughing at you. :lol:


*2009 figures: approx 12,00 murders and 16,00 suicide by firearm.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_ ... every_year
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Flash » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:58 pm

Arnold Schwarzenegger's character in True Lies, when asked by his wife if he has ever killed anybody answers; "Yeah, but they were all bad". By the Hollywood movie law (and by stand your ground law now) killing bad people is OK in America. And there must be a lot of bad people in America because the Americans are armed to the teeth and ready to shoot. By the peculiar logic of the NRI then all twenty eight thousand dead per year had to be bad. Why? Because the good people rarely get shot in Hollywood, pardon me, in America.

RubyHypatia wrote:
you won't be immune from gun-waving idiots if the government outlawed all guns

Really? I think you have too many of the gun waving idiots right now. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Flash on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:03 am

Bunyip wrote:Trying to rationally discuss gun control with an adherent to America's loopy gun culture is like trying to communicate with people living on Alpha Centauri.

Let's consider what would happen if we replaced a word in your complaint.

what if Bunyip wrote:Trying to rationally discuss censorship with an adherent to America's loopy free speech culture is like trying to communicate with people living on Alpha Centauri.

Doesn't sound so loopy, now, does it.

Americans value both freedoms. Americans tend to value civil liberties in general. Not everyone does. But that does not mean Americans are loopy about their civil liberties.

Recap: It's not about guns, it's about civil liberties.

Bunyip wrote:By all means keep your guns and your TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND* gun deaths a year. The rest of the world will continue laughing at you. :lol:

And you can keep your higher levels of violent crimes and your eroded civil liberties. Taking away guns does not necessarily make a better society.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Flash » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:53 am

xouper wrote:
Americans tend to value civil liberties in general.

That's really cool, you know xouper, but what non-Americans find absurd is that the right to own the device specifically designed to murder people counts as the civil liberty in America. You must be from Alpha Centauri.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:28 am

xouper wrote:And you can keep your higher levels of violent crimes and your eroded civil liberties. Taking away guns does not necessarily make a better society.

I'll take some-one pulling a knife on-me over some-one pulling a gun any-time, thank-you very-much. They'd have to catch me. And if they did, I'd have full, free medical, legal, and financial support until I was fit-enough to return to work.

Nothing out-of-pocket, except the taxes I personally invested in building a society that protects me and takes care of me when I need it, as I do for all others.

So suck it, anarchists!
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Gord » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:38 am

Ah yer all nuts....
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby bigtim » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:45 am

When the zombies come all'y'all can come to my house. I can arm everyone here with melee weapons and rifles... so we're good.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:27 am

Flash wrote:
xouper wrote:Americans tend to value civil liberties in general.

That's really cool, you know xouper, but what non-Americans find absurd is that the right to own the device specifically designed to murder people counts as the civil liberty in America. You must be from Alpha Centauri.

Thanks for admitting you just don't get it. You must be from Uranus.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Major Malfunction » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:16 am

bigtim wrote:When the zombies come all'y'all can come to my house. I can arm everyone here with melee weapons and rifles... so we're good.

I have my own means, but company is good.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Bunyip » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:29 am

Doesn't sound so loopy, now, does it.


Loopy,perhaps not clinically, just an idiotic strawman.

Was there something you didn't understand about;


Trying to rationally discuss gun control with an adherent to America's loopy gun culture is like trying to communicate with people living on Alpha Centauri.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:43 am

Bunyip wrote:
Doesn't sound so loopy, now, does it.

Loopy,perhaps not clinically, just an idiotic strawman.

Was there something you didn't understand about;

Trying to rationally discuss gun control with an adherent to America's loopy gun culture is like trying to communicate with people living on Alpha Centauri.

My point is that just because you do not agree with another culture's political values does not necessarily make those political values "loopy".

My point is I disagree with your characterization that a particular civil liberty is loopy.

If you want to explain how you justify that insult, then please do so.

Otherwise, all we have at this point is a disagreement.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:52 am

Taking away guns owned legally will make no dent in the amount of guns owned illegally by criminals but only leave people more vulnerable?
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:52 am

28000 deaths per year. I wundr how many lost eyez, earz, nozez, armz, legz, facial disfigurmnt, brain damage, ruined dijestiv systemz, etc etc etc.

Then therez the toll on wild animalz and pets. Wild animalz are the most egrejiously impacted group, since they gain nothing from our teknolojy.

I think the averaj gun enthuziast woud hav 2nd thoughts about this 'liberty' if he lost a family member or a body part to a bullet.

Wut we need in America iz a powerful lobbying organization to counter the NRA.

Sumthing like Momz Against Gunz iz likely to exist already, but they obviously arent up to the challenge. They need a specialty weapon, just az all comic book heroz hav. I'm thinking bullet proof umbrellaz, acid squirt gunz, poizon darts.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:21 am

Regarding civil liberties and guns, in the UK anyone who has not got criminal convictions other than minor stuff who can safely store their gun and has a safe place to shoot can get a gun. You are limited as to what type of gun you can get. That situation has come about because of massacres where cognisance of another civil liberty, that to life has been balanced with the liberty to have a gun. Then there is the issue of self defence where in the UK the use of deadly force with a gun is pretty much unacceptable as it is seen as excessive and ignores a whole host of other options.

The USA has a different approach where there is also a civil liberty to have a gun, which respects safe and responsible use by non criminals. Where there is divergence from the UK is over the type of gun you can get as massacres have not had much of an impact on gun possession laws and self defence with a gun, even against unarmed people who were not causing an immediate and deadly threat is accepted.

So the civil liberty is the same in both countries, it is the acceptable possession and use of the gun that is different.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:30 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Taking away guns owned legally will make no dent in the amount of guns owned illegally by criminals but only leave people more vulnerable?


I would like to see evidence of that. In the UK gun crime is primarily criminal vs criminal and since criminals know the public are unarmed and indeed the police are unarmed 99% of the time they tend not to use their guns on them.

The one exception is armed robbery, obviously, but many instances of that are with replica firearms. Armed robbery is very rare and is mainly against banks, companies who transfer cash and jewelers.

We are in the happy position where everyone sees the advantage of not having widespread gun possession. In the US guns beget more guns and so on to now where it is hard to see you have any other choice.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:24 pm

JO 753 wrote:Wut we need in America iz a powerful lobbying organization to counter the NRA.

Yea, and we also need a good lobby to counter all those powerful pro-First Amendment lobbyists too. :roll:

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby xouper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:26 pm

Nessie wrote:So the civil liberty is the same in both countries, . . .

You already know I do not agree with your spin on this issue, so there's no need to repeat myself.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:40 pm

Nessie wrote:We are in the happy position where everyone sees the advantage of not having widespread gun possession. In the US guns beget more guns and so on to now where it is hard to see you have any other choice.


The stats speak for themselvez, but its impossible to get cement hedz to face reality.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:47 pm

xouper wrote:
Nessie wrote:So the civil liberty is the same in both countries, . . .

You already know I do not agree with your spin on this issue, so there's no need to repeat myself.


There is no spin. We have exactly the same rights as you do. From that we chose to do different things with those rights.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:49 pm

JO 753 wrote:
Nessie wrote:We are in the happy position where everyone sees the advantage of not having widespread gun possession. In the US guns beget more guns and so on to now where it is hard to see you have any other choice.


The stats speak for themselvez, but its impossible to get cement hedz to face reality.


I agree JO, Xouper side skirts the real issue by claiming it does not matter as rights are all that matter. He ignores the fact that the UK has the same rights as the USA does, to have guns and defend yourself.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Blacksamwell » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:22 pm

Spoons made Oprah fat.

Obesity kills thousands of innocent people every year. Let's ban spoons.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Blacksamwell » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:26 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Taking away guns owned legally will make no dent in the amount of guns owned illegally by criminals but only leave people more vulnerable?

It would appear that way based on the violence occurring in Chicago. Banning guns doesn't appear to work so well since the criminals don't care about complying with the gun laws.

Meanwhile the rest of the country (with the exception of a few locations) is enjoying both record levels of legal gun ownership AND record low levels of violent crime. Win-win.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby JO 753 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:08 pm

Its like a religion! All the same cherry picking, re-imaging, denial, straw man arguments, appealz to authority!

Wut the NRA iz doing iz creating Valhalla on Earth. Over the next few decadez they will be working with the christian churchez to shape America into a quazi-theocracy that teachez a filosofy uv continual death & rebirth. This iz wut all the anti-abortion lejislation iz about!!!!!

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Kilgore Trout » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:24 pm

Nessie wrote:
xouper wrote:
Nessie wrote:So the civil liberty is the same in both countries, . . .

You already know I do not agree with your spin on this issue, so there's no need to repeat myself.


There is no spin. We have exactly the same rights as you do. From that we chose to do different things with those rights.



Don't you guys across the pond know that the only place in the world that Freedom (TM) exists is in the good old USA?
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2nd Amendment

Postby fromthehills » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:27 pm

Interesting thing to me is that if a gun ban were to come into place, there would be some people that would begrudgingly relinquish their firearms, but most would not. How would an anti-gunner propose to enforce this ban? If a hundred million Americans refused this ban, would one propose to declare civil war in order to enforce their will? How does this make us a free society? My guess is after the first couple thousand arrests of normally law abiding gun owners, you'd have many thousands of 2nd amendment advocates banding together in retaliation. Probably thousands of such groups across the country. It may be an unwinable war to fight against our government's might, but a government that attacks its own citizens is not a government I would support. Also consider that the personnel that make up the Armed Forces are citizens, and are sworn to defend us from enemies both foreign and domestic.

Good luck with your anti-liberty lobby group. Turn a hundred million Americans into criminals and see what happens.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:50 pm

A phrase used before, which sums this situation up very well is that the genie is out the bottle with gun possession and the USA. There is little point in trying to turn the USA into a low gun ownership country. A better plan would be aiming towards (like the pun!) the means of having a high gun ownership with low levels of gun related death society. So look to the likes of Switzerland for your answers.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:56 pm

Blacksamwell wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Taking away guns owned legally will make no dent in the amount of guns owned illegally by criminals but only leave people more vulnerable?

It would appear that way based on the violence occurring in Chicago. Banning guns doesn't appear to work so well since the criminals don't care about complying with the gun laws.

Meanwhile the rest of the country (with the exception of a few locations) is enjoying both record levels of legal gun ownership AND record low levels of violent crime. Win-win.


Can you show a direct causal link between number of guns and level of crime? I would also ask for two results, levels of gun ownership and non gun related as well as gun related crimes.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nessie » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:58 pm

Kilgore Trout wrote:
.......

Don't you guys across the pond know that the only place in the world that Freedom (TM) exists is in the good old USA?


Does that include freedom from fear? American attachment to guns comes over as being very fearful of being attacked and the victim of crime, yet you are supposed to be enjoying very low levels of crime.
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2nd Amendment

Postby fromthehills » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:58 pm

Nessie wrote:
Kilgore Trout wrote:
.......

Don't you guys across the pond know that the only place in the world that Freedom (TM) exists is in the good old USA?


Does that include freedom from fear? American attachment to guns comes over as being very fearful of being attacked and the victim of crime, yet you are supposed to be enjoying very low levels of crime.


Trout was joking with you. Do you folks have a ban on self effacing humor, as well?

I don't live in fear, in spite of all the guns I own. Haven't been afraid of much in my life, and if I am, I work through it. I've also helped people overcome their fear of guns.

You sure do pontificate a lot about the mindset of Americans, for not actually being one. Hell, you write with more certainty about us than I would.

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Poodle » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:40 pm

fromthehills wrote: Do you folks have a ban on self effacing humor, as well?


Good point, from - we don't. Yet.

Now where did I put my MPs email address? We'll soon put a stop to this.


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