Antwon Rose shooting

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Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gord » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:54 am

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/6/2 ... ting-video
17-year-old Antwon Rose was fleeing and unarmed when police in East Pittsburgh shot him

...A bystander captured a video of the police shooting and posted it on Facebook. It shows two people running away from police cars, with their backs to the officers, as police open fire.

“Why are they shooting?” the person who recorded the video said. “All they did was run, and they’re shooting at them.”...

...The statistics suggest that it would be a truly rare situation if the officers who shot and killed Rose were charged and convicted of a crime.
Oh, and I forgot this part:
...The officer, who remains unnamed, was hired in May but reportedly sworn in the police department the same day of the shooting, although he had eight years of experience in other police departments....
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Aztexan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:11 pm

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:23 pm

The situation with police in America today is deeply troubling. We should be working towards a police force that is not even armed....using information systems to do the crime fighting ((Yes.....I know.)) But it seems to me that AT A MINIMUM which I believe is practiced rarely here and there, each police shooting needs to be reviewed by an outside authority preferably with community input. Anything short of this ((which as said is universal right now)) is the admission that what we have is what we want.

It is interesting to consider: what we do to ourselves.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:49 pm

I agree.

Maybe, however, technology can give use an answer. I like the idea of body cams, and, perhaps, constantly running multiple body cams may reach the point where everything is monitored so that police will stop shooting people when it isn't warranted.

I do think, though, that police do always need to carry guns.

Here in Florida, everybody and their mother carries guns. I don't like the idea of a cop trying to arrest somebody, and the criminal pulls a gun and laughs in the cop's face.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:42 pm

Thanks KL: no police with guns is a long term goal....the "value" involved. Specialty teams (eg: swat) would have fire arms...but mostly they aren't needed. OR---that idea makes sense only when guns become generally outlawed. Lets not quibble?

Body cams alone won't do it. Cops on Film killing people are already the norm. Someone OTHER THAN the cops themselves.....and way too many DA Offices..... need to do an independent review. "For Now"....like a rapid dog, I'm even willing to give every cop one free murder. Kick them off the force. A slow weeding process.........
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gord » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:39 pm

I've always been puzzled by the apparent right-wing contradictory goals of a well-armed population living in a police state: IF everyone has the right to carry a firearm for protection, and IF some police officers become so out of control that they pose a danger to the community, THEN should private citizens have the right to shoot them?
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:18 pm

Statistics show that 3 people are killed by police action in the US every day, for all causes, justified, unjustified, unknown, etc. That means the average American has 1 chance in 110,000,000 of being killed in a police action on any given day.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gord » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Statistics show that 3 people are killed by police action in the US every day, for all causes, justified, unjustified, unknown, etc. That means the average American has 1 chance in 110,000,000 of being killed in a police action on any given day.
Hmmmm: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/odds-of ... xpect.html
The odds of winning those record Powerball, Mega Millions jackpots are beyond slim
The odds of snaring the Powerball jackpot are 1 in 292.2 million.
The $570 million Powerball prize is now the fifth largest in the game's history.
The $450 million Mega Millions jackpot is even more unattainable, with odds of 1 in 302.5 million.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:41 pm

So have the police shoot the guy who draws the numbers.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gord » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:29 pm

"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:04 pm

So much for the skeptical part...
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:11 pm

Before you disarm the police, you need to ban hand guns. Long guns are not the same kind of problem, since it is very obvious when someone is carrying a long gun in public, and measures can be taken to stop that guy doing harm. But a hand gun can be concealed, meaning anyone who has one can carry it out of sight. While hand guns are out there, the police must be armed.

Most murders, like most suicides, are done on impulse, not pre planned. If a person carries a concealed hand gun, and gets the impulse to murder, he or she can do it quickly and easily. Thus, having hand guns legal increases the number of murders by firearm. Most firearm murders in the USA are done by hand gun. Relatively few by long gun or even assault rifle.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:45 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Before you disarm the police, you need to ban hand guns. Long guns are not the same kind of problem, since it is very obvious when someone is carrying a long gun in public, and measures can be taken to stop that guy doing harm. But a hand gun can be concealed, meaning anyone who has one can carry it out of sight. While hand guns are out there, the police must be armed.

Most murders, like most suicides, are done on impulse, not pre planned. If a person carries a concealed hand gun, and gets the impulse to murder, he or she can do it quickly and easily. Thus, having hand guns legal increases the number of murders by firearm. Most firearm murders in the USA are done by hand gun. Relatively few by long gun or even assault rifle.
I disagree with you on some points, as I do believe that people have a right to be armed...provided, of course, that they aren't criminals and are not crazy. I own guns, and I carry (within the boundaries of the law).

I used to be very anti-gun, and was brought up in an anti-gun household. My maternal grandfather blew two of his fingers off with a shotgun in a hunting accident when my mother was a little girl, and it was very traumatic.

My father grew up in a bad area of the South Bronx where deadly violence was an almost daily occurence, and, when I was a teenager, a friend of the family came home from work and killed his wife, two of his three children, and himself.

The situation that changed my views was my work as a paramedic. I was a relief worker for the Red Cross after Hurricane Andrew, and I had youthful, idealistic views of people pulling together for the common good and helping each other get past this disaster.

Instead, people devolved into predatory animals in a very short time, and there was looting, gang rapes, murder, and so on.

I have seen instances of home invasion where a psycho will break into someone's house and kill just for the sake of doing it.

My gun isn't to protect my property. If someone breaks in, and I see them stealing my T.V. or stereo, I'll let them take it even if I do have a gun on me. The cost of a television is miniscule when compared to the legal costs of defending a homicide charge in court.

The gun is for the derranged, sociopathic psychos who like to do violence just for its own sake.

And by the way...just because I'm pro gun doesn't mean that I like bump stocks. I like large magazines, but I don't believe in 50 or 100 round drums. I also think that armor-piercing rounds should be completely banned.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:25 pm

KL: all you've done is substitute your personal fears/concerns for the statistics that should control. Sounds like you know all the arguments,..... so, I'll stop.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:18 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:KL: all you've done is substitute your personal fears/concerns for the statistics that should control. Sounds like you know all the arguments,..... so, I'll stop.
Statistics can be twisted...although I'm not suggesting that you're doing this.

My point is that a gun gives an old lady parity with the three scumbags that break into her home to do psycho things.

I can't buy into the idea that it's okay for a woman to be a victim if the reason for this situation is that we've eliminated guns. People do have the right for self-defense.

That being said, I think the NRA sucks because they've backtracked on their commitment to condemn bump stocks. They've never voiced concern over incindiary and/or tracer rounds, 100 round drums, or people who own 150 guns.

I own guns. I own more than one gun. I don't believe that people should own 100 assault rifles, I believe that people who own guns and have children should be subjected to random visits from specially trained social workers to make sure that guns are locked up and contained properly.

I would also like to see guns fitted with radio GPS chips so that if they're stolen...they can be relocated (along with the thieves) right away.

There's a lot of things that can be done that aren't being done.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:36 pm

On gun statistics.
In my country, hand guns are banned. Our murder rate per capita is one fifth that of the USA, but our murder rate by firearm is one thirtieth. You cannot tell me that banning hand guns has no effect !

In the USA, 50% of all murders are done with hand gun, and 90% of all firearms murders. The biggest single murder situation according to the FBI (and reported in Skeptic magazine) is when two young men get into a fiery argument and one pulls out a hidden hand gun and shoots the other one dead. But lots of other situations in the USA lead to murder where in other western nations it would not. E.g. road rage. Simply having a hand gun in the house doubles the odds that one spouse will murder the other.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:44 am

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:22 am

For those not bothering to read Gawd's reference, it is a study that shows firearm ownership links to firearm murders. More guns make a nation less safe, not more.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:35 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:On gun statistics.
In my country, hand guns are banned. Our murder rate per capita is one fifth that of the USA, but our murder rate by firearm is one thirtieth. You cannot tell me that banning hand guns has no effect !

In the USA, 50% of all murders are done with hand gun, and 90% of all firearms murders. The biggest single murder situation according to the FBI (and reported in Skeptic magazine) is when two young men get into a fiery argument and one pulls out a hidden hand gun and shoots the other one dead. But lots of other situations in the USA lead to murder where in other western nations it would not. E.g. road rage. Simply having a hand gun in the house doubles the odds that one spouse will murder the other.
I assume you're posting from the U.K..

If you are, I believe that you have--if anything--overstated the gun violence there. I've heard that you folks have about 68 million people, and the last stat that I've read seems to claim that there were 65 total gun deaths for the whole country (including Scotland and Wales) for the year 2016. This includes suicides in your military.

That's approximately 1 gun death per million people per year, when we have almost as many gun deaths in a single shooting spree (like Las Vegas, NV, Orlando, FL, and so on).

I don't downplay the bad side of a pro-gun society.

I think part of the reason why gun restriction works for you has to do with socialized medicine.

Enlightened, idealistic european countries have always been better at taking care of the poor and making sure that crazy people have access to healthcare and/or the therapy and meds that they need.

If I lived in an enlightened country that took better care of psychos and drug addicts, then I believe that there would be fewer violent crazy people, and, perhaps, less need for gun ownership.

The USA is the richest country on the planet (we consume about 30% of the world's resources with about 5% of the world's population), yet crazy people, violent people, drug addicts, and desperate poverty-stricken people fall by the wayside.

This is, I believe, where our pool of violent psychos come from.

If we addressed the underlying causes of a lot of these issues, then maybe guns wouldn't be neccesary.

I, for one, am glad that I have an alternative to being a powerless victim.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:36 am

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:21 pm

KevinLevites wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:KL: all you've done is substitute your personal fears/concerns for the statistics that should control. Sounds like you know all the arguments,..... so, I'll stop.
Statistics can be twisted...although I'm not suggesting that you're doing this.

My point is that a gun gives an old lady parity with the three scumbags that break into her home to do psycho things.
Well, thats exactly what you don't do. I say don't do because "I" don't twist any statistics at all.... your complaint is with the statistics. I see not by countering with statistics (aka: facts) but with more anecdotes and appeals to fear. And that is what statistics do prove: the pro gun position is based on an anecdotal fear response rather than rational behavior.
KevinLevites wrote:I can't buy into the idea that it's okay for a woman to be a victim if the reason for this situation is that we've eliminated guns. People do have the right for self-defense.
Now, you just make up arguments not offered. Self defense takes many forms....arming the very menace you are concerned with is not optimal.
KevinLevites wrote:That being said, I think the NRA sucks because they've backtracked on their commitment to condemn bump stocks. They've never voiced concern over incindiary and/or tracer rounds, 100 round drums, or people who own 150 guns.
HA...I didn't even know they were that bad. Yes....NRA interfering with rational legislation of guns for about....what...30 years now?
KevinLevites wrote:I own guns. I own more than one gun. I don't believe that people should own 100 assault rifles, I believe that people who own guns and have children should be subjected to random visits from specially trained social workers to make sure that guns are locked up and contained properly.
Well, that is very intrusive and a valid middle ground. Being rational.....takes time.
KevinLevites wrote:I would also like to see guns fitted with radio GPS chips so that if they're stolen...they can be relocated (along with the thieves) right away.
Excellent idea: I agree. Along with bio locks I assume.
KevinLevites wrote:There's a lot of things that can be done that aren't being done.
Yes, indeed. The idea of requiring gun insurance has been discussed. A good idea that i think would pass constitutional review.

So KL: seems like you are a totally reasonable gun owner in favor of legislation that would greatly restrict "other" people from getting/using guns. Thats a start. Without making too big a point of it: anecdotal evidence which is where your emotions flow from, always to be guarded against. You saw damage caused by guns but the lesson you took away is more guns? Why didn't you come away with the notion that guns should be illegal??? To me...its just a prejudice formed by personal experience. Something we all do. If I got robbed by a group of Scandanavian Youth with Blue Hair: should I hate anyone with blue hair, all Scandanavians, or just all youth?.....or should I look at the statistics?

Its hard to fight our emotions, but we do it often without realizing it. The reasons for which would require me to dither, so once again, I'll stop.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Bobbie the Pragmatist » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:25 pm

Aztexan wrote:2690641616_small_1.jpg
No, absolutely not.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:52 pm

Yes. Absolutely yes.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:52 pm

Kevin

I am from New Zealand.

The UK has one quarter the total murders of the USA on per capita basis, and the low rate has nothing to do with the medical system.

Prof. STEPHEN Pinker (Harvard psychology) stated that there were two reasons for the high murder rate in the USA. First was the tendency to take "justice " into ones own hands (the vigilante ethic), so that people like drug pushers killed other drug pushers who infringed their territory. Or young men shot other young men who argued with them. A very warped idea of justice, of course, but murderers tend to have warped ideas. The second was the ease of access of firearms. I would personally add to that, it is ease of access to hand guns in particular. While a long gun can be used in murder, it is far more likely that the killer would have a hand gun when the impulse to kill strikes, since hand guns can be, and are, carried around concealed on the person's body. Hand guns are banned in my country, and in the UK as well, which cuts the murder rate dramatically.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gord » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:05 pm

Bobbie the Pragmatist wrote:
Aztexan wrote:2690641616_small_1.jpg
No, absolutely not.
Who ARE you?!
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Aztexan » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:34 pm

Bobbo found his feminine side?
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:24 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Kevin

I am from New Zealand.

The UK has one quarter the total murders of the USA on per capita basis, and the low rate has nothing to do with the medical system.

Prof. STEPHEN Pinker (Harvard psychology) stated that there were two reasons for the high murder rate in the USA. First was the tendency to take "justice " into ones own hands (the vigilante ethic), so that people like drug pushers killed other drug pushers who infringed their territory. Or young men shot other young men who argued with them. A very warped idea of justice, of course, but murderers tend to have warped ideas. The second was the ease of access of firearms. I would personally add to that, it is ease of access to hand guns in particular. While a long gun can be used in murder, it is far more likely that the killer would have a hand gun when the impulse to kill strikes, since hand guns can be, and are, carried around concealed on the person's body. Hand guns are banned in my country, and in the UK as well, which cuts the murder rate dramatically.
I respect what you're saying, even if I disagree with a few things.

You specifically mention drug dealers when discussing gun violence, but drug dealers don't have nearly the foothold in the UK that they have in the USA, because drug addicts (ie: customers) can be treated very readily because of socialized medicine, and some of the enlightened laws that undercut the drug business.

I still ask how anyone is able to protect themselves from violent criminals that break in to do psycho things?

I despise rapists, and with some criminals...a gun is the only thing that they understand.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:27 pm

My feminine side would be out trolling bars for free drinks. No.....for some reason Bobbie wants to walk in my shadow. I thought that would be cool...someone trying to ape my apish style...but he's going full retard. Making me look bad.

Fame has its price, even in the smallest of rain barrels.

Say Bobbie: why have you adopted my nom de flame?
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:33 pm

KevinLevites wrote: I still ask how anyone is able to protect themselves from violent criminals that break in to do psycho things?
Call the cops. Have better locks or a safe room. An effective police force and an active social safety net (you do recognize this with UK's medical approach to addiction) over the long term will save more net lives than having guns around the house for criminals to steal and use later or to have other house members find and shoot someone by accident. Last I read: homeowners are more likely to be shot by their own gun than by a criminal. Thats gotta suck?
KevinLevites wrote: I despise rapists, and with some criminals...a gun is the only thing that they understand.
No. They understand a cop. They understand a well lighted area, good locks, a safe room. Whether they understand it or not, effective data sharing, good dna base is going to catch them eventually.

Look at the statistics: the lower gun owning nations in general have better safety outcomes. You can have your own values, but not your own facts.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:38 pm

As an addenum, we had a contract with a prison system (when I was a medic) to transport sick inmates for specialty treatment when the prison clinic didn't have adequate resources.

I transported a serial murder who killed 8 children and several adults...some of them in their own homes.

How does one protect one's family against such a monster? A baseball bat? I've seen frail old ladies who were rape victims, and couldn't use a baseball bat to save themselves.

Do we counsel women to be submissive to a rapist...with the hope that it won't escalate to a rape/homicide?

You get my point, I'm sure...even if you disagree.

Me personally? I would love to see some techno genius invent a high-tech Taser and/or tranquilizer gun that incapacitates immediately with no lethal consequences. If such a weapon could be placed in my hands, and it has the reliability, accuracy, and incapacitating ability of a handgun...I would be the first in line to throw my guns into the police crusher.
Last edited by KevinLevites on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:41 pm

KevinLevites wrote:As an addenum, we had a contract with a prison system (when I was a medic) to transport sick inmates for specialty treatment when the prison clinic didn't have adequate resources.

I transported a serial murder who killed 8 children and several adults...some of them in their own homes.

How does one protect one's family against such a monster?
Ummmmmm.....you put them in jail?
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:47 pm

To Kevin

Harvard University researchers did the work, and found that possessing guns leads to an increase in murders, but has no relationship with other crimes, such as rape. It is an attractive thought, to those influenced by the propaganda programs of the NRA, that having guns protects you. But the empirical evidence shows it does not. All having guns does, is increase your chances of being murdered.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:To Kevin

Harvard University researchers did the work, and found that possessing guns leads to an increase in murders, but has no relationship with other crimes, such as rape. It is an attractive thought, to those influenced by the propaganda programs of the NRA, that having guns protects you. But the empirical evidence shows it does not. All having guns does, is increase your chances of being murdered.
I understand, and I buy into objective numbers...to a point. I am, after all, a paramedic...and I wouldn't want to continue pushing a medication that statistics have shown to be harmful. Medications do get retired from time to time when numbers come out that show something to be dangerous.

Talcum powder falls into this category, as it's been discovered that it causes cancer...when it's been used for over 100 years.

I don't have an easy justification for the gun thing, except to say that I've treated many people who were victims of violent criminals, and numbers have a way of receeding into the background when I'm treating an emotionally traumatized man who was tied up by criminals and had to watch his wife get raped.

I've personally treated many people who were in a similar situation, and all of them would have traded their souls to the devil for a handgun at the time it was happening.

In fairness to your point, I have also run on many calls where the careless adult left a handgun unsecured, and a kid got ahold of it and killed a sibling and/or himself.

I've also run on calls where a ghetto kid simply picked up a cheap handgun left lying on the ground in a park (lots of drug dealers use parks in Florida, and they have lookouts who advise them of incoming cops...so they can quietly drop their guns in the bushes for later retrieval in case they get patted down) and killed a playmate.

The answers are not as clear-cut and well defined when you're in the trenches...as I have been. A lot of anti-gun people (as I was, before my EMS career) might see things a little differently if they did a substantial amount of ride time on an ambulance.

Another way of looking at it is to approach this issue as a "theory vs. practice" conflict, which happens often in areas like engineering, the military, and so on.

Oftentimes, a theoretician finds a rule or principle that should be used in the field--it doesn't work--and then there is a conflict between what is and what should be.

I suspect (but don't know) that it is similar with the American gun culture.

I understand and respect when someone is anti-gun, but I also ask people to respect my experience, and the idea that things become a lot different to people (like me) who are the "boots on the ground".

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:02 am

KevinLevites wrote:The answers are not as clear-cut and well defined when you're in the trenches..
Yes..... they are. Thats the whole point. What would you say to someone who wants to continue to use talcum powder because they like talcum powder? What should society do? Legislate for personal feelings/likes/experience...or the society as a whole, ie: the statistics of the damage that people thinking they are protecting themselves actually do?

Lance told you that gun ownership doesn't change rape statistics. Did you miss that? You can disagree with the stat, but you shouldn't just ignore it.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:59 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
KevinLevites wrote:The answers are not as clear-cut and well defined when you're in the trenches..
Lance told you that gun ownership doesn't change rape statistics. Did you miss that? You can disagree with the stat, but you shouldn't just ignore it.
I don't believe I did.

I did mention that there is sometimes a disconnect between theory and practice.

There are times and occasions when guns actually save peoples' lives.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:16 pm

I understand the statistics, but there are other considerations.

As an idea of what I mean, I'll ask you to consider the following argument:

If I was in charge with unlimited power (like a king), I could probably cure cancer in five years. Rats are cured of cancer all the time, but the treatments don't work as well on people because--although there are biological similarities--rats aren't people.

So, I could kidnap thousands of people against their will (because I'm a king with absolute power) and force them to become experimental subjects for cancer research. It's reasonable to believe that cure for cancer could be found rather quickly if we abandon any ethical restraints.

For every person who dies from medical experimentation in such a scenario, perhaps 200,000 lives could be saved.

200,000:1 is an impressive statistic, yet we don't do this because statistics aren't the only consideration.

It's (obviously) ethically wrong to abduct people and do medical experiments on them without their consent...even if every person killed in such a manner benefits 200,000 people (given how many people die from cancer worldwide).

There are occasions and circumstances where doing the greatest good for the greatest number is not the right thing to do.

If my example from above seems farfetched, please consider that it was the Nazis who discovered that smoking causes cancer...in part from medical experiments on unwilling human beings.

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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:22 pm

KevinLevites wrote: I did mention that there is sometimes a disconnect between theory and practice.
Thats a nice turn of phrase but it is totally meaningless. You either understand statistics, or you don't. YOU DON'T.
KevinLevites wrote: There are times and occasions when guns actually save peoples' lives.
This is the exact argument made by anti-seat belt advocates or anti-helmet advocates. No one denies that people have been ejected from cars just before they go over a cliff or explode on hitting a tree: ONE life saved. STATISTICS HOWEVER ADD UP ALL THE CASES: and to combat the attitude you present here, have made it a law to wear seatbelts: because adding up all the factors: it makes everyone safer. Same with helmets. Same with gun ownership once they get outlawed.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:25 pm

KevinLevites wrote:I understand the statistics, but there are other considerations.

As an idea of what I mean, I'll ask you to consider the following argument:

t smoking causes cancer...in part from medical experiments on unwilling human beings.
Your argument has NOTHING to do with statistics. Prove me wrong: name and connect your dots. Heh, heh.....you are on a slow slide. Don't appreciate what statistics are, now applying what an argument is, is slipping away.

Smoke 'em if you got em.
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Re: Antwon Rose shooting

Post by KevinLevites » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
KevinLevites wrote: I did mention that there is sometimes a disconnect between theory and practice.
Thats a nice turn of phrase but it is totally meaningless. You either understand statistics, or you don't. YOU DON'T.
KevinLevites wrote: There are times and occasions when guns actually save peoples' lives.
This is the exact argument made by anti-seat belt advocates or anti-helmet advocates. No one denies that people have been ejected from cars just before they go over a cliff or explode on hitting a tree: ONE life saved. STATISTICS HOWEVER ADD UP ALL THE CASES: and to combat the attitude you present here, have made it a law to wear seatbelts: because adding up all the factors: it makes everyone safer. Same with helmets. Same with gun ownership once they get outlawed.
I do get your point about the helmet and seatbelt thing.

As a medic, I have run on many car accidents where people were killed by seatbelts...yet for every person killed by a seatbelt, perhaps 100 (or more) lives have been saved.

I still go back to my cancer argument, which I suggested that statistics are not the only consideration when it comes to deciding issues of what is right and wrong.

I will say that if I lived in someplace like France or the U.K. (or New Zealand), I would have no desire to own a gun.