Suicide

Duck and cover
User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:49 am

https://www.livescience.com/44615-suicide-help.html

I am posting this in response to the extreme callousness I have seen from gun lovers on this subject. Typically we see a gun lover saying that anyone who tries suicide is a loser, and let them die. But people who consider or attempt suicide are not necessarily losers. Many will fail to kill themselves and go on to live reasonably satisfactory lives.

A few statistics.

The USA has quite a high suicide rate. It comes to 121 people per day, or 44,000 per year. What is interesting is that this is the small tip of the iceberg. It is estimated that over a million people attempt suicide each year. So the vast fraction of those who plan suicide, do not actually kill themselves.

Sadly, the presence of guns, and especially hand guns in the USA, raises the number of those who succeed dramatically. Half of all successful attempts will result in death because a gun is used. If guns, and especially hand guns were not readily available, the number of suicide attempts that result in death would be much, much less.

To illustrate this point, realise that males are far more likely to use a gun. Females are far more likely to try a drug overdose. Male suicide rate is four times that of females, but females attempt suicide three times more often than males. The male tendency to use a gun raises their death rate dramatically. Of course, even without guns, the male rate would be higher, since the second most common successful suicide method (hanging) is also male dominated. But guns are so effective that their presence raises the suicide rate substantially. 21,000 suicides per year with guns ! 56% of all male suicides use guns.

Of course, the presence of guns is not the only factor driving suicide. Most people who attempt suicide have a mental illness such as depression. But the ready availability in the USA of guns makes the number of attempts that result in death rise substantially. Even those people with depression who try suicide and fail, still have a big chance to live their lives reasonably well. As witness the fact that more than 955,000 people each year try suicides, but continue to live.

A statement that someone who wants to attempt suicide should be left to die is not only callous, but wrong. The majority of such people will live reasonable lives if they fail in their attempt and we should not do anything to assist them to make their attempt successful, like making guns easy to get hold of.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:53 am

Whats your evidence they "lead reasonable lives"? All you have is the survival rate, not the quality of life.

I don't notice suicidally depressed as a "thing" in my associations. I'm probably just a bad judge of character.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby gorgeous » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:02 am

there are good reasons to kill yourself...constant pain and misery for instance...it is logical to be depressed under certain conditions.....why must it always be called an illness?
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby gorgeous » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:20 am

how about Sinead O Conner's videos ranting and wanting to kill herself? Annie Lennox wanted to know where her family was and why weren't they with her?....If Annie was concerned why didn't she go rescue Sinead and have her stay in her house...?...I guarantee she would have kicked Sinead out really fast when she realized how horrible and erratic she can be....big talk from those who have no experience with unstable people.......Sinead's family and friends were done with her....she's had 4 very short marriages..1-2 yrs. each...probably scared all of her kids with her behavior...left to the states, stayed with a friend, left to go to a hotel with no notice,...went to another state ...went to a hotel...cried and ranted about everyone dumping her when she left them....had police take her to a hospital, she then left and went back to the hotel, ranted in another video, went back to the hospital....she's all yours Annie.....
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:33 am

Depression is not nice. But it is not certain, either. It comes and goes, and people who are suicidal one day are frequently happy to be alive another day. Nor is it something that is necessarily life long. Often depression fades over time.

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby gorgeous » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:37 am

Robin Williams had severe illness with no treatment or cure....can't blame him...sometimes it's the best choice..
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:39 am

More than 20% of the population experience depression at some stage. There are many treatments, and they frequently work well. If everyone who experienced depression took their own life then the US would see close to a million suicides each year.

User avatar
gorgeous
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby gorgeous » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:40 am

not for Williams' illness
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

User avatar
ElectricMonk
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2952
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:21 pm
Custom Title: His Beatitude

Re: Suicide

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:03 am

Suicide is regarded very differently in different cultures. I believe it is mostly the influence of the Monotheistic Religions that has made it a taboo: if you want to take over the world, it doesn't help if your followers get to off themselves.

But as with any major decision, it is important to help the person make this one with as much calm and rationality as possible: certain drugs and certain phases in life (puberty, intense grief) can cause suicidal tendencies, but they are temporary, most of the time.

Guns do offer a quick and permanent solution to a problem that most of the time solves itself if given time.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:20 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:Depression is not nice. But it is not certain, either. It comes and goes, and people who are suicidal one day are frequently happy to be alive another day. Nor is it something that is necessarily life long. Often depression fades over time.


Lance, I've suffered from depression, better described as PTSD, for at least 23 years. I say at least because I knew something was wrong for some time before I cracked up. As for coming and going, well for my part I can't agree with that. At least not until you get some treatment. It took me some years before we worked out that it went all the way back to 1968 and my time in Vietnam.

I came home from 'Nam and everything was fine. But at the end of the day, it had been building in that unknown space at the back of my mind. For 26 years to be exact. It took a very special psychologist to get into my mind and discover the truth. And until that point, I was suicidal most of the time.

I still take happy pills every day. If I happen to miss taking them for just three days, I can feel it all coming back again. So whilst it can be controlled, and very well, from my experience, it never goes away. That black dog is just waiting for the chance to slip out and grab your ankle.

But, I can give everyone some very sound advice. Once you have understood what it is that's bringing you down, you must talk about it. The longer you bottle it up, the more it will eat away at your sanity. And that my friends, is the secret to overcoming this illness, for an illness it certainly is.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:25 am

Phoenix

Would you say that suicide is the answer ?

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:27 am

Absolutely NOT, Lance.

Life is too wonderful to throw it away. It isn't easy though. Guess in my case, that spark of wanting to live was just that bit stronger than the want to die.

Certainly not the answer to anything. But if a person suffering this way doesn't have some sort of support, then it could be very hard to resist.

Can only speak from my experience, of course, but when you are depressed to these depths, your mind says that nothing is worthwhile. Just let me out of here, stop the pain. And the pain, whilst mental, is probably just as bad as when you have been shot or something similar. I've never experienced the physical pain of wounding, only got a scratch in 'Nam, but I can have a good guess when I think of physical injuries in the past.

You just want the pain to go away. Hard to explain to someone who hasn't been there.

Yet in battle, your desire to live is just phenomenal. You do anything to stay alive. Part of my problem. But this desire to live doesn't necessarily transpose to the situation of being depressed. And look, understand that everyone gets depressed at some time or another during life. Things don't work out how you planned, someone close dies or gets very ill. But the human psyche can usually contend with that. True depression is something quite different, and I would not wish it on my worst enemy.

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:30 am

And Lance, look at my avitar. The mythical Phoenix, risen from the ashes. Perhaps it tells a story. Even our little farm here in outback Oz is called Phoenix. Perhaps that says something about my psyche.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Thank you, Phoenix.

What you said pretty much backs up what I have read. I have never been in those depths, but your description certainly rings true.

My thesis here is much what you said, that suicide is a tragedy. Many gun lovers claim that would be suicides are losers and should be allowed to die. I understand that the urge to kill yourself can be transient. As you said, you just want to make the pain go away. The impulse to suicide may be temporary and the impulse, when it is in the past, may lose all power. At that stage, the potential suicide can can charge of his or her life and live again. There is no guarantee of course. But it gives the opportunity, and that is what we all need.

Because guns, and especially hand guns, permit a quick and easy decision to kill yourself, having easy access to one increases the number of those tragedies. The impulse to suicide is followed by death. The chance to once more take charge of your life and live again is lost.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:29 pm

The argument against suicide is NOT that life is so wonderful. For so many too much of the time, life ain't all that wonderful.

BUT...............Life is the only reality we know about. Alive......you have a choice to evaluate, consider, choose. Kill yourself... and you have no choices at all.

That swings the deal for me absent the most extreme situations. Life sucks........but thats all there is, until there is nothing.

Having a very light almost not even real bit of ptsd myself, I wouldn't call it depression. Its a cousin, but not the same thing........or not all episodes of ptsd are of the depression type? ((I'm afraid of shark attacks when in my swimming pool at night. Came on 20 years after 2 shark "approaches"==not even attacks and I wasn't afraid at the time. No reason to have ptsd over it.... but I do.))
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:36 pm

That is a shame, Bobbo.

I love sharks. I scuba dive searching for them. I have been within a meter of many different sharks, including 3 meter bull sharks, which some experts believe to be the most dangerous of all. Sharks do not normally regard humans as being on their ' menu '. They are beautiful and awesome creatures.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:55 pm

Ahhh.....its not so bad.......warmer in the day time to begin with?

I've told this tale before?...The more serious approach was by two reef type sharks each about 3-4 feet long. Juveniles==your typical curious/investigative creature, except they only have teeth. The front shark came directly at me slowly and I put a stick between him and me. He turned but made a quick tight 360 to come at me again. The stick again..and he swam off. His buddy was 5 feet behind him laying back. Who knows what any investigative bite might have led to other than me bleeding out a mile at sea?

Previously...I had to unstick our ship anchor from a reef and a 10 foot "blue" shark circled me lazily about 50 feet away. His pectoral fins never went "down" and he never got closer. Just patrolling.

I still dove after both events but never without a stick in my hand and never in cloudy water like I used to. The only thing that saved me from the young shark was that I saw him coming. Without that...I'm sure he would have bit me.

And years later.... the dread that "a large shark" was going to eat me in my pool? Probably..... more to do with the movie than real life? Its so silly....but its real. Good thing no night swimming pool activities were ever required in my career progression.

........oh..I actually responded to say that with both real life experiences.........I did marvel at how beautiful and adapted the creatures are........but I think that of almost all creatures I see......except at MacDonalds.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:38 am

No Bobbo, not silly at all. No matter how tough we think we are, and how much dread we can stand up against, we can all be subject to these fears. And they are real.

Your PTSD/depression are as real as anybody else's. Your experiences in the pool are quite a natural flow on from your real life experiences. Never easy to explain.

Why did my mind wait 26 years before saying "I can't take this anymore"? I'm almost tempted to say what happened, but I don't really think this is the right place to do it.

Bobbo, all I can say is, keep talking through your experiences. Don't hide them away, let them out.

User avatar
placid
Regular Poster
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby placid » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:19 pm

The wave cannot return to the ocean, cannot get home. It was never divided from it's home in the first place.

Suicide is not the stopping of the body-mind but the remembrance of your original and unblemished nature, here and now, beyond the ravages of time.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28956
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Suicide

Postby Gord » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:35 pm

Waves diminish until their energy is converted into other forms.

Suicide is the end of life for a particular individual, who no longer exists to experience anything.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Anomaly
Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby Anomaly » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:11 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:https://www.livescience.com/44615-suicide-help.html
The USA has quite a high suicide rate. It comes to 121 people per day, or 44,000 per year. What is interesting is that this is the small tip of the iceberg. It is estimated that over a million people attempt suicide each year. So the vast fraction of those who plan suicide, do not actually kill themselves.

Sadly, the presence of guns, and especially hand guns in the USA, raises the number of those who succeed dramatically. Half of all successful attempts will result in death because a gun is used. If guns, and especially hand guns were not readily available, the number of suicide attempts that result in death would be much, much less.


The numbers found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate tells a somewhat different story.

It says suicide rate is about the same as Sweden, New Zealand and France to use comparable societies.

Strangely, the presence of guns, and especially hand guns in the USA does not cause more suicides than in countries with lesser access to hand guns or guns in general. Even with all those guns available, the suicide ratio between men and women are about the same compared to compatible countries without same access to weapons.

It seems like the "western world" have similar numbers. This can tell us that access to guns does not cause any suicide rates that stands out from places with less access to guns, or that access to guns makes you a lousy shot.

The Caribbean seems to be the place to be nonetheless.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:25 pm

Anomaly

You are using shockingly bad logic. Suicide rates very from country to country and the reasons are always different. But guns make suicide easy and thus make more attempts lethal. Switzerland has a high suicide rate, high gun access, and a high percentage of all successful suicides being done by guns. Japan has a high suicide rate too, but not with guns. However, Japan has a history of suicide as an acceptable means of escaping unacceptable social situations, and thus suicide is an aspect of their culture. Different countries have different reasons for having more or less suicides, but access to guns makes attempts more likely to succeed.

User avatar
Anomaly
Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby Anomaly » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:50 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:You are using shockingly bad logic. Suicide rates very from country to country and the reasons are always different. But guns make suicide easy and thus make more attempts lethal. Switzerland has a high suicide rate, high gun access, and a high percentage of all successful suicides being done by guns.


No, Switzerland has actually relatively low rates compared to Europe and the "West". Read the data before making assumptions.

Lance Kennedy wrote: Japan has a high suicide rate too, but not with guns. However, Japan has a history of suicide as an acceptable means of escaping unacceptable social situations, and thus suicide is an aspect of their culture. Different countries have different reasons for having more or less suicides, but access to guns makes attempts more likely to succeed.


Japan has a relatively high suicide rate. It is about the same as in Hungary and Belgium...........

We use statistical data to measure trends and make assumptions to test, we don`t make assumptions and try to find data to support it.

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:16 pm

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... 180949831/

Anomaly
As the reference above shows, Switzerland has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe. 1000 per year, or 3 times the death toll from car accidents. My data is fine.

User avatar
Anomaly
Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Re: Suicide

Postby Anomaly » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:34 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/switzerland-one-worlds-happiest-countries-also-one-europes-suicide-capitals-180949831/

Anomaly
As the reference above shows, Switzerland has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe. 1000 per year, or 3 times the death toll from car accidents. My data is fine.


The article you link takes the data from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Switzerland

The 2015 Swiss suicide rate of 10.7 (male 15.5, female 6.0) published by the World Health Organisation is "age-standardised", attempting to control for differences in age structure for the purposes of international comparison. The standardised Swiss suicide rate is similar to the rates of neighbouring France (12.7; male 19.0, female 5.9), Austria (11.7; male 18.5, female 5.3) and Germany (9.1; male 14.5, female 4.5). It is somewhat below the European average of 11.93, and close to the global average of 10.67.[1]


You see..... Even the data YOU provide says the Swiss rate of 10,7 is similar but lower compared to neighboring France 12.7 and Austria 11,7.
Here is the data set from WHO. http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.MHSUICIDEASDR?lang=en


If we use a visual chart the trend becomes obvious. PS! Eastern Europe... Red color. Nudge nudge.....
I know this is WHO data from 2012. That is why I linked the full updated WHO data sett above.
Image


This is where the rides end for me. There is nothing to add. My shockingly bad logic together with my useless degree that includes two years with statistics and data analysis have tried to bring it down to basic concepts. {!#%@}, I am even contemplating suicide myself if I have to go on ;)

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:29 pm

Your own reference gives the Swiss suicide rate as 12.7, which is higher than most of Europe. The age standardisation is a technique of debatable merit. Your reference also points out that the main method used is guns.

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28956
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Suicide

Postby Gord » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:22 am

The map says "number of suicides per 100,000 people per year, age-adjusted". How do you age-adjust the number of people who commit suicide? What does that even mean?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:36 am

Gord wrote:The map says "number of suicides per 100,000 people per year, age-adjusted". How do you age-adjust the number of people who commit suicide? What does that even mean?


Statistical double talk Gord????? I have no idea, all I know is the old adage - There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". :!: :!: :!: :?:

User avatar
placid
Regular Poster
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby placid » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:54 am

Gord wrote:Waves diminish until their energy is converted into other forms.

Suicide is the end of life for a particular individual, who no longer exists to experience anything.



The belief that there exists a separate individual is an idea.

Kill the idea, not the body. The body doesn't know if it's alive or dead, it's self-less.

Identification is suffering.

People kill themselves over ideas that are not actually there, it's the delusion of the phantom mind.

One can kill the idea of oneself, but one can never kill the self.

The self-less live out the rest of eternity shining.

All unwanted gifts are returned to sender.

Nothing is ever lost or gained.

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:55 am

Placid wrote:

People kill themselves over ideas that are not actually there, it's the delusion of the phantom mind.


Placid, I very much doubt that you would have any realistic idea of depression and the suicidal thoughts that often go with it. "Ideas that are not really there", I'm right, you have no idea. Believe me, the ideas, the pictures, the memories, they are real and they are there. The only delusion my friend is what is between your ears. You do have ears don't you :?:

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:52 pm

Phoenix76 wrote:
Gord wrote:The map says "number of suicides per 100,000 people per year, age-adjusted". How do you age-adjust the number of people who commit suicide? What does that even mean?


Statistical double talk Gord????? I have no idea, all I know is the old adage - There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". :!: :!: :!: :?:

Why should you assume any competency AT ALL in a subject you have never studied? What EGO is this????? I did not go to air conditioning school..... so only liars can inspect and repair air conditioning units?????

Age Adjusted is a very common statistical tool..... kinda like a wrench in A/C repair. I know.... don't like the result, call the tool a lie. I haven't studied suicide...but to plug it into the study on statistic I have made it must be that there are more suicides the older you get? So.... if you want to find out if other factors affect suicide by measuring it from country to country you have to do something to deal with countries with different average ages otherwise you are only going to report from country to country who has the on average older people. Japan will always be higher than Venezuela for instance even though you can see one strong factor for suicide is the amount of poverty in a society...... once you age adjust the data.

There are lies, damn lies, and people who don't know a thing about statistics, and usually math in general.

Check your ignorance at the door. Recognizing this should be the key to greater wisdom, not an inhibition to it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:27 pm

Anomaly came up with the age adjusted business to argue against my statement that the Swiss had a high suicide rate. Since the numbers show me to be correct, Anomaly had to find a way to 'tweak ' the numbers.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:41 pm

lance........I agree Liars do use statistics....... just like they use everything else... like the bible. Who's going to call the BIBLE, the very word of God, A LIE, just because people use it that way and people know god about as well as they do statistics.

Suicides per 100K by country is a hard data point. A set statistic if you must.......but it is not analytical in the way statistics is normally thought of. Once you start "adjusting" the data by use of multiple statistics then you are parsing the data to get at issues that are NOT hard data points. Like, I assume here as I haven't read the associated links to the thread above: "WHY" are people committing suicide? There is NO DATA POINT for that. You have to use: "analytical statistics" to get at that..... heh, heh..........and all it provides is CORRELATION.

I mean........you can't have much more fun than that.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Lance Kennedy
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9607
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:20 pm
Custom Title: Super Skeptic
Location: Paradise, New Zealand

Re: Suicide

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:54 pm

The question is why do people "attempt" suicide. Not actually commit it. The answer normally is depression.

But actually completing a suicide, rather than failing, is unusual. As I pointed out earlier, it is estimated that over a million people attempt suicide every year in the USA, but only 44,000 succeed.

So why do people who attempt a suicide actually succeed, which is a separate question. Why do men succeed 4 times more often than women, even though women have 3 times the attempts ? The answer is related to HOW the attempt is carried out. Trying to suicide with poison or drug overdose usually fails (The body has a built in defense. It is called up chucking.) Women normally try the drug overdose thing, and fail. More men succeed because men are more violent, and that includes violence against self. A violent method is more likely to result in death. Pretty basic really. The four methods that normally succeed are a gun to the head, hanging, jumping off a high place, and jumping in front of a speeding train. Women rarely use those methods.

If you are considering suicide, bear in mind.
1. Guns. Very messy. It will severely traumatise the person who finds the body. Also, some people fail and end up brain damaged or vegetables.
2. Hanging. The worst possible method. It is death by slow strangulation. It can take ten minutes to become unconscious, and those ten minutes are the most vicious torture. Whatever you do, never attempt suicide by hanging. It is utterly horrific.
3. Jumping off a high place. If you do not die, you will probably be disabled for life. Not nice.
4. In front of a train. Selfish, since it traumatises any witness, and like no. 3 above, it can leave you disabled.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Has More Than 9K Posts
Posts: 9673
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:39 am

Re: Suicide

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:04 am

Lance: very good summary. I think the issues you are interested in are so compelling that they would be self evident even with age related statistics? Age related/or any other adjusted data does not "lie" as much as change what is being talked about. If anyone tends to get stuck on stupid, they will miss that technique. Not a lie, just a taking advantage of.

Guns kill people. Then "some" types will try to use statistics................again, not to lie.......... but to mislead by misdirection.

Imagine that?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

User avatar
Gord
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28956
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:44 am
Custom Title: Silent Ork
Location: Transcona

Re: Suicide

Postby Gord » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:40 am

placid wrote:
Gord wrote:Waves diminish until their energy is converted into other forms.

Suicide is the end of life for a particular individual, who no longer exists to experience anything.

The belief that there exists a separate individual is an idea.

Big whoop. All beliefs are ideas.

Kill the idea, not the body. The body doesn't know if it's alive or dead, it's self-less.

Don't kill either. The body does "know" if it's alive or dead, insofar as individual cells communicate with one another, and the brain is part of the body, and the brain is capable of "knowing" in the most common sense.

Identification is suffering.

Identification can be ecstasy. Maybe you consider ecstasy and suffering to be the same thing, but I don't think most people would agree with you.

People kill themselves over ideas that are not actually there, it's the delusion of the phantom mind.

We agree on that.

One can kill the idea of oneself, but one can never kill the self.

We do not agree on that.

The self-less live out the rest of eternity shining.

Beetabega fajita in a pita?

All unwanted gifts are returned to sender.

I prefer to store them in a box or sell them on eBay.

Nothing is ever lost or gained.

Many many things are lost and/or gained every moment of every day.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Has No Life
Posts: 19386
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: sees Maria Frigoris from its house!

Re: Suicide

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:...

If you are considering suicide, bear in mind.
...
4. In front of a train. Selfish, since it traumatises any witness, and like no. 3 above, it can leave you disabled.

And may traumatize and leave dead or disabled any passengers of said train...
Hi, Io the lurker.

User avatar
Phoenix76
Poster
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am
Custom Title: Phoenix76
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Suicide

Postby Phoenix76 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:42 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
There are lies, damn lies, and people who don't know a thing about statistics, and usually math in general.



Mate, I may not be a statistical scholar, but I do have a reasonable handle on statistics. And my math has always been very good, even if not at the level of a physicist. Certainly good enough to be a forensic accountant.

However, the "age adjusted" reference was one that I was not familiar with. I never have a problem admitting if I do not know or understand something, in this case, "age adjusted". And I think as you even admitted yourself, statistics can be twisted to mean whatever you wish. Perhaps their argument doesn't prove the point, but many people try it on, that's for sure.

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26040
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Suicide

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:22 am

Phoenix76 wrote:However, the "age adjusted" reference was one that I was not familiar with.


"The age-adjusted rates are rates that would have existed if the population under study had the same age distribution as the "standard" population. Therefore, they are summary measures adjusted for differences in age distributions."

(I had to look that up) :D


Return to “Guns”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest