"Human Trafficking"

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Tom Palven
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"Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:46 pm

Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:47 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?
Tom? Can you narrow this down a bit? Are we including sex trade workers sent across borders using financial slavery? That's real.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Gord » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:51 am

Human trafficking can also include helping people immigrate, then forcing them to work for room and board in your sweatshop.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/70-I ... 026921.php

A Southern California garment company that allegedly forced more than 70 Thai immigrants to work as prisoners in a fortified sweatshop complex was raided by agents from a state and federal strike force, the state labor commissioner announced yesterday.

(That one's from 1999. I don't know if things are any better these days.)
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:25 am

Nowadays it's Texas...
Hi, Io the lurker.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:25 am

Nowadays it's Japan...

Watched a TV program a few weeks back... after `salary saved by employer`, deductions for room & board, uniforms, etc. - only the equivalence of a few dollars per day was paid out as the `training` visa expired and the employee was sent back home. In one case it was 14 people to a room, with `hot-bunking` to cover the number of staff required for shift work.

Still better than those trafficked for sex. A news report today from Cambodia on a trafficking atempt gone wrong...

https://www.japantoday.com/category/cri ... rafficking

What makes you think human trafficking is false?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby OutOfBreath » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:34 am

I'm not getting the "debunk" angle either. This is real, it happens and ranges from tough to horrible on those involved.
Dunno if there is a media hysteria over it in the US though, or any specific case or whatnot.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Gord » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:58 am

I've seen several news stories about it happening in Canada, but nobody seems to care. It's as if this is considered normal and we shouldn't bother ourselves about it.

Makes me wanna retch.
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:30 am

There are entrenched Recreational Drug Prohibition and Anti-Abortion industries.

This morning I was sent a link that addresses some of the BS associated with the Anti-Trafficking Industry:
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/res ... told-lies/
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:04 pm

Tom Palven wrote:There are entrenched Recreational Drug Prohibition and Anti-Abortion industries.

This morning I was sent a link that addresses some of the BS associated with the Anti-Trafficking Industry:
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/res ... told-lies/


Tom - does it address BS, or is it spreading BS? I really don`t know, and I am not going to dig thru all of the assertions on that site to research it. I am satisfied in knowing that trafficking is real, and that there are people who are dedicated to weeding it out. I accept that not all prostitutes are trafficked, but know that many are.

Is there one point in particular that you dispute? Focusing might help.

Here is another trafficking for sexual exploitation - not prostitution by my understanding... here in Japan. Fairly common...

http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/07/08 ... ing-probe/

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby OutOfBreath » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Tom Palven wrote:There are entrenched Recreational Drug Prohibition and Anti-Abortion industries.

What does either of those have to do with trafficking?

Tom Palven wrote:This morning I was sent a link that addresses some of the BS associated with the Anti-Trafficking Industry:
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/res ... told-lies/

I just skimmed it briefly. Seems to be aimed at (unnamed) anti-prostitution activists misrepresenting and exagerrating figures to do with prostitution. Activist exagerration does not mean the problem is non-existant. (And btw not really knowing the source of criticism doesnt let me rule out counter-exagerrations either.)

So, still not sure what your point really was.
(edit) unless I consider the Source for the thread. Then it's probably "Bad state! Baaaaad!" somehow... ;)

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:01 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:There are entrenched Recreational Drug Prohibition and Anti-Abortion industries.

What does either of those have to do with trafficking?

Tom Palven wrote:This morning I was sent a link that addresses some of the BS associated with the Anti-Trafficking Industry:
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/res ... told-lies/



So, still not sure what your point really was.
(edit) unless I consider the Source for the thread. Then it's probably "Bad state! Baaaaad!" somehow... ;)

Peace
Dan


You're right. I think that people should be allowed control of their own bodies with regard to drugs, abortion, and sexual behavior, and don't see how individuals or groups of people, even if they call themselves a government, acquire legitimate rights to control other people's peaceful activities.

An interesting thing I just found in researching prostitution is that prostitution is legal and unregulated in New Zealand, and legal or quasi-legal in different areas of Australia where Julian Assange is from. However, according to Wikipedia, in Sweden where Assange is wanted on a sexual assault charge, "critics of prostitution view it as a form of exploitation and violence against women," and under the "Swedish legal approach" it is "illegal to buy sexual services, but not to sell them."
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:33 pm

Tom Palven wrote: An interesting thing I just found in researching prostitution is that prostitution is legal ... in different areas of Australia.
Australia stole that concept from the North European countries.

In essence, if you make prostitution legal, the state can monitor and give individual feedback, concerning the health of the girls and rent-boys. It is only with good information that the government can identify real health issue problems. (Addicts here can swap old needles for pathogen testing, for new needles for the same reason, monitoring)

Additionally, if a prostitute is being unjustly treated, that same prostitute can go to the authorities knowing that prostitution is not the crime, but rather, the unjust treatment.

Pragmatically the hardest thing to break here is the language barrier as brothels follow ethnic groupings. Some of the non-english speaking girls brought to Australia, in financial slavery, don't know prostitution is legal and thus don't come forward. They need to be told that they have rights.
.

I thought about buying a brothel with a lawyer friend, about ten years ago. It is still illegal for a third party to earn from prostitution, but it is legal for the girls themselves to buy into a unit trust structure which supplies administration, security, health checks and advertising.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:51 pm

Now...to make you laugh...

My mother sat on the NSW parole board when Dad was Commissioner of Corrective Services in NSW. They simply loved understanding crime and criminals. So they decided to go visit the brothels, in mobile buildings around the Western Australian mine fields. However my mother used to wear a Sherlock Holmes outfit, complete with a cape., when doing what she called "leg work". I imagine the look on the face of the poor Western Australian policeman tasked with taking my parents on this midnight tour, of these brothels to chat to prostitutes and the poor miners waiting for my mother to finish chatting, so they could get some sexual relief. I remember sitting around the Sunday lunch table as my parents described this trip to me. :D

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
I thought about buying a brothel with a lawyer friend, about ten years ago.


That's what gave me the best chuckle. :D
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:59 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:I thought about buying a brothel with a lawyer friend, about ten years ago.
Tom Palven wrote:That's what gave me the best chuckle. :D


I can make you laugh again. About twenty years ago there was a TV advertisement for an ethical bank. The bank promised not to invest in tobacco, weapons, sex trade, arms-trading, pornography, sexist men's clubs and so on.

So my lawyer friend and I thought the best way to raise money was to start the "Totally Unethical Bank" and specifically invest in tobacco, weapons, sex trade, arms-trading, pornography, sexist men's clubs and so on.

However as we both already worked in the entertainment industry we realised we were already way too unethical, even for tobacco, weapons, sex trade, arms-trading, pornography, sexist men's clubs and so on.
:D

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:43 am

That's funny, but I got more of a kick out of you buying a brothel.

I had visions of you purchasing the Long Branch Saloon from Matt Dillon's love, Miss Kitty Russell.
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:50 pm

Three arguments against the conventional wisdom that human sex trafficking is a major world-wide problem:


1.  According to the Amazon.com. review of Sex at the Margins by Laura Maria Augustin, "This groundbreaking book explodes several myths:  that selling sex is completely different than any other kind of work;  that migrants who sell sex are passive victims;  and that multitudes of people out to save them are without self-interest."
https://smile.amazon.com/Sex-Margins-Mi ... he+margins


2.  Zbigniew Dumienski (2012): Myths and Reality of Human Trafficking: A View from Southeast Asia.

From the introduction:

"Human trafficking is commonly seen as a heinous transnational crime affecting millions of migrants from all parts of the globe. According to the US government there are as many as 12.3 million victims of human trafficking world-wide and trafficking is a tremendous, multi-billion-dollar business run by both small networks of traffickers and, increasingly, by “large polycrime international criminal organizations” (US Department of State 2010). One could say that these are very alarming developments and that the authors of the preceding claims should be thanked and congratulated for bringing them so forcibly to public attention. The only problem is that it is difficult to find evidence that any of the above is true..."


3.  From  an article titled "...human trafficking?"  in Spiked news on line by Natalie Rothschild, July 10, 2007:

"What may look like a benevolent rescue-mission of young prostitutes and "domestic slaves" actually amounts, ultimately, to a clampdown on immigration itself."
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... Js7uPWcGUk
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:20 pm

Tom… The assertions that much prostitution willingly occurs with immigrants from impoverished nations, or that it is difficult to find the victims of trafficking, do not refute the contention that trafficking is a major problem.

As for the suggestion that taking the biometrics of child immigrants for tracking and monitoring purposes will infringe on the civil liberties of foreigners, I would say that the battle for anonymity was lost some time ago. Passports worldwide are going biometric with face photo and index finger fingerprints captured at entry.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:36 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:57 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .


Do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?

Should abortions be prohibited by law?

Who should decide these things?

Who owns your body? The US Supreme Court, a state legislature, Donald Trump, or you?

If you think that you own your own body and that other adults own their own bodies, you might be a libertarian (heaven forfend), and not a statist.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .


Do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?

Should abortions be prohibited by law?

Who should decide these things?

Who owns your body? The US Supreme Court, a state legislature, Donald Trump, or you?

all these questions have little to do with the topic -

obviously the legal system is incapable of stopping prostitution , and they are more likely to hurt the poor .
recent improvement is to go after the pimps , instead of the slaves .

abortion ? is proof of how pathetic humanity is ; and how over populated the world is .
should try to reduce population by preventing pregnancy . again the legal system is incapable of stopping abortion .

who should decide ? the legal system should find better ways of fighting evil.
but that will not happen .

again it has nothing to do with human trafficking - humans are evil or pathetic , always have been , always will be .


If you think that you own your own body and that other adults own their own bodies, you might be a libertarian (heaven forfend), and not a statist.
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:00 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .


Do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?

Should abortions be prohibited by law?

Who should decide these things?

Who owns your body? The US Supreme Court, a state legislature, Donald Trump, or you?

all these questions have little to do with the topic -

obviously the legal system is incapable of stopping prostitution , and they are more likely to hurt the poor .
recent improvement is to go after the pimps , instead of the slaves .

abortion ? is proof of how pathetic humanity is ; and how over populated the world is .
should try to reduce population by preventing pregnancy . again the legal system is incapable of stopping abortion .

who should decide ? the legal system should find better ways of fighting evil.
but that will not happen .

again it has nothing to do with human trafficking - humans are evil or pathetic , always have been , always will be .


If you think that you own your own body and that other adults own their own bodies, you might be a libertarian (heaven forfend), and not a statist.



Huh? Did you actually comment, and do you believe that you own your own body, or does someone else own you?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:28 am

Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .


Do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?

Should abortions be prohibited by law?

Who should decide these things?

Who owns your body? The US Supreme Court, a state legislature, Donald Trump, or you?

all these questions have little to do with the topic -

obviously the legal system is incapable of stopping prostitution , and they are more likely to hurt the poor .
recent improvement is to go after the pimps , instead of the slaves .

abortion ? is proof of how pathetic humanity is ; and how over populated the world is .
should try to reduce population by preventing pregnancy . again the legal system is incapable of stopping abortion .

who should decide ? the legal system should find better ways of fighting evil.
but that will not happen .

again it has nothing to do with human trafficking - humans are evil or pathetic , always have been , always will be .


If you think that you own your own body and that other adults own their own bodies, you might be a libertarian (heaven forfend), and not a statist.



Huh? Did you actually comment, and do you believe that you own your own body, or does someone else own you?



if you clik my screen name ; you will see my occupation is - slave laborer -
very few people are what Abraham Maslow called self actualized .
and those people wood not waste time here
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:35 am

It seems to me that there are slave laborers and silver spooners, but no self actualized....

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:17 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
psychiatry is a scam wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Can anyone point me to an article that debunks the "human trafficking" scare, scam, hoax, lie, or whatever it is?

To me this relatively new-sounding cause is just the same old Carrie Nation morality crusade along the lines of combatting alcohol consumption or Reefer Madness.

Kidnapping constitutes coercion and is unethical and illegal everywhere, but this anti-human trafficking is focused much more on the prevention of voluntary prostitution than kidnapping and involuntary servitude.

I've searched a bit in Wendy McElroy's site, tried a google search that included Greta Christina and COYOTE, but so far haven't found what I'm looking for.


maybe your having trouble finding a debunking story because there is too much truth to it ?
regardless of the personal reasons people get involved.

I doubt if there is ever voluntary prostitution .


Do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?

Should abortions be prohibited by law?

Who should decide these things?

Who owns your body? The US Supreme Court, a state legislature, Donald Trump, or you?

all these questions have little to do with the topic -

obviously the legal system is incapable of stopping prostitution , and they are more likely to hurt the poor .
recent improvement is to go after the pimps , instead of the slaves .

abortion ? is proof of how pathetic humanity is ; and how over populated the world is .
should try to reduce population by preventing pregnancy . again the legal system is incapable of stopping abortion .

who should decide ? the legal system should find better ways of fighting evil.
but that will not happen .

again it has nothing to do with human trafficking - humans are evil or pathetic , always have been , always will be .


If you think that you own your own body and that other adults own their own bodies, you might be a libertarian (heaven forfend), and not a statist.



Huh? Did you actually comment, and do you believe that you own your own body, or does someone else own you?



if you clik my screen name ; you will see my occupation is - slave laborer -
very few people are what Abraham Maslow called self actualized .
and those people wood not waste time here


Where wood they? (And isn't that a disruptive troll comment irrelevant to the topic?)

But, btw, do you think that sexual transactions between consenting adults should be prohibited by law?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:24 pm

Thursday I was given a large slick magazine-type booklet with the scary title International Trafficking in Women to the United States: A Contemporary Manifestation of Slavery and Organized Crime

There are no credits whatsoever on the booklet as to author, publisher, etc., and the only identifying statement is at the bottom of the last page- Made in the USA, Lexington, KY, 20 February 2017.

I did a google search to this site:
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... icking.pdf

If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence.

With further research on the web I ascertained that there are actually more people who have been abducted by alien spacecraft, sexually abused, and returned to Earth, than people who involuntarily engage in the sex trade while on Earth.

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby OutOfBreath » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:41 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
With further research on the web I ascertained that there are actually more people who have been abducted by alien spacecraft, sexually abused, and returned to Earth, than people who involuntarily engage in the sex trade while on Earth.


I think you'd need a peculiar reductionist definition of "involuntary" for that statement to work.(Or a big belief in abductions.) Along the lines of "you chose to work while in concentration camp (or else food would be denied), thus it was voluntary work".

A limpy metaphor, I know, but you get the point?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:31 pm

Tom Palven wrote:... If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence. ...


Agreed - It certainly does not. In fact raising a standard disclaimer - typically used to avoid legal actions from those named and shamed, says nothing at all about the veracity of the contents.

Your use of `BS propaganda` is troubling. The report is fairly well footnoted, providing opportunity for verification of the facts upon which the authors’ opinions and conclusions are based. It seems to me that you might first want to find a factual error before suggesting it might just possibly be BS propaganda. Additionally, if you google the authors` name you will find several entries – none of which suggest she is a BS, but rather is an expert in this matter.

There may well indeed be exaggerations and falsehoods in media reporting on human trafficking. I would be most interested in learning the factual basis for such claims, if you have any.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:44 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:... If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence. ...


Agreed - It certainly does not. In fact raising a standard disclaimer - typically used to avoid legal actions from those named and shamed, says nothing at all about the veracity of the contents.

Your use of `BS propaganda` is troubling. The report is fairly well footnoted, providing opportunity for verification of the facts upon which the authors’ opinions and conclusions are based. It seems to me that you might first want to find a factual error before suggesting it might just possibly be BS propaganda. Additionally, if you google the authors` name you will find several entries – none of which suggest she is a BS, but rather is an expert in this matter.

There may well indeed be exaggerations and falsehoods in media reporting on human trafficking. I would be most interested in learning the factual basis for such claims, if you have any.


The footnotes go to places like the Associated Press that recycle press releases from the State and Defense Departments.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:53 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
With further research on the web I ascertained that there are actually more people who have been abducted by alien spacecraft, sexually abused, and returned to Earth, than people who involuntarily engage in the sex trade while on Earth.


I think you'd need a peculiar reductionist definition of "involuntary" for that statement to work.(Or a big belief in abductions.) Along the lines of "you chose to work while in concentration camp (or else food would be denied), thus it was voluntary work".

A limpy metaphor, I know, but you get the point?

Peace
Dan


I voluntarily chose to work in the hot sun hoeing soy beans and corn as a kid. People today voluntarily choose to pick tomatoes in the blazing sun, sort garbage at recycling stations and to ride garbage trucks, hoisting cans of garbage into them. It's hard, honest work that people freely choose to do who don't have the wherewithal to be surgeons, tattoo artists or whatever.

It's you who doesn't seem to understand the meaning of coercion, even though you're the one who mentioned concentration camps, which are government projects.

If the CIA cares so much about people, why is it killing and maiming so many of them with drones directed from play stations in the US every day?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:... If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence. ...


Agreed - It certainly does not. In fact raising a standard disclaimer - typically used to avoid legal actions from those named and shamed, says nothing at all about the veracity of the contents.

Your use of `BS propaganda` is troubling. The report is fairly well footnoted, providing opportunity for verification of the facts upon which the authors’ opinions and conclusions are based. It seems to me that you might first want to find a factual error before suggesting it might just possibly be BS propaganda. Additionally, if you google the authors` name you will find several entries – none of which suggest she is a BS, but rather is an expert in this matter.

There may well indeed be exaggerations and falsehoods in media reporting on human trafficking. I would be most interested in learning the factual basis for such claims, if you have any.


The footnotes go to places like the Associated Press that recycle press releases from the State and Defense Departments.


Yes – out of 171 footnotes, 3 are from the AP, and a few were of other news sources. But that does not refute. As I said – please do point out any factual discrepancies.

80 Interview with the Little Tokyo Service Center, February 1999 and Associated Press, “Police Break Up Sex-Slave Ring That Preyed On Immigrant Girls,” November 13, 1998.

81 Associated Press, “Rape Allegations Shake Hmong Refugees,” October 14, 1999.

101 Associated Press, “Adoptions of Smuggled Mexican Babies,” July 25, 1999.


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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:18 pm

without looking it up - what does --- turned out --- mean ?
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:40 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:... If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence. ...


Agreed - It certainly does not. In fact raising a standard disclaimer - typically used to avoid legal actions from those named and shamed, says nothing at all about the veracity of the contents.

Your use of `BS propaganda` is troubling. The report is fairly well footnoted, providing opportunity for verification of the facts upon which the authors’ opinions and conclusions are based. It seems to me that you might first want to find a factual error before suggesting it might just possibly be BS propaganda. Additionally, if you google the authors` name you will find several entries – none of which suggest she is a BS, but rather is an expert in this matter.

There may well indeed be exaggerations and falsehoods in media reporting on human trafficking. I would be most interested in learning the factual basis for such claims, if you have any.


The footnotes go to places like the Associated Press that recycle press releases from the State and Defense Departments.


Yes – out of 171 footnotes, 3 are from the AP, and a few were of other news sources. But that does not refute. As I said – please do point out any factual discrepancies.

80 Interview with the Little Tokyo Service Center, February 1999 and Associated Press, “Police Break Up Sex-Slave Ring That Preyed On Immigrant Girls,” November 13, 1998.

81 Associated Press, “Rape Allegations Shake Hmong Refugees,” October 14, 1999.

101 Associated Press, “Adoptions of Smuggled Mexican Babies,” July 25, 1999.



If you aren't skeptical about this elaborate fake news fairy tale yet, you're never gonna be.

Do you also believe that economic factors may take some spring out of the Easter Bunny step this year?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dguiAWrUGMM
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:21 am

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:... If you go there it will tell you that neither the State Department, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, nor the Central Intelligence Agency endorse the material contained in the booklet, and yet they apparently published it.

While this doesn't prove that the booklet is BS propaganda, I cite it as evidence. ...


Agreed - It certainly does not. In fact raising a standard disclaimer - typically used to avoid legal actions from those named and shamed, says nothing at all about the veracity of the contents.

Your use of `BS propaganda` is troubling. The report is fairly well footnoted, providing opportunity for verification of the facts upon which the authors’ opinions and conclusions are based. It seems to me that you might first want to find a factual error before suggesting it might just possibly be BS propaganda. Additionally, if you google the authors` name you will find several entries – none of which suggest she is a BS, but rather is an expert in this matter.

There may well indeed be exaggerations and falsehoods in media reporting on human trafficking. I would be most interested in learning the factual basis for such claims, if you have any.


The footnotes go to places like the Associated Press that recycle press releases from the State and Defense Departments.


Yes – out of 171 footnotes, 3 are from the AP, and a few were of other news sources. But that does not refute. As I said – please do point out any factual discrepancies.

80 Interview with the Little Tokyo Service Center, February 1999 and Associated Press, “Police Break Up Sex-Slave Ring That Preyed On Immigrant Girls,” November 13, 1998.

81 Associated Press, “Rape Allegations Shake Hmong Refugees,” October 14, 1999.

101 Associated Press, “Adoptions of Smuggled Mexican Babies,” July 25, 1999.



Answer me this: Why don't the concerned citizens of the CIA run press releases about the kids who are killed or their arms or legs blown off by their drones strikes every day, and run interviews with their families and print slick magazines about them?
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... icking.pdf
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:52 am

Tom, I suspect you have a bad case of Faux news and Mr.T. - just a hunch of course.

But to humour you an answer to your question... why the {!#%@} would the CIA run press releases if they indeed did as you say? IMO - they don`t either because they don`t do those nasty deeds and don`t want to lie by saying that they do, or... they indeed do those nasty deeds and just don`t want the publicity - your choice.

But please do answer me this: Why ask this question in a thread on human trafficking? A little diversion?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:58 pm

TJrandom wrote:
But please do answer me this: Why ask this question in a thread on human trafficking? A little diversion?


The CIA publication in the link above is dated Nov, 1999. I have that identical publication in front of me right now in slick magazine form and no other identification as to author or publisher or any other identification except on the bottom of the very last page it says "Made in the USA Lexington , KY 20 February 2017.

That was last Monday!

But this is not news. The CIA has been promoting this narrative for at least seventeen years.

Why?

I submit to you that mine is not a diversionary tactic, but this CIA narrative may be some kind of diversionary tactic.

The reason that I also submit this link...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dguiAWrUGMM

... is not a diversionary tactic either.

It is to show that the US mainstream media will take press releases from the Treasury Dept., State Dept., Pentagon, etc., some of them very self-promoting, and run them as real, not fake, news

As a skeptic you know that it is hard to prove a negative, but it is my assertion that a loose association of the powers-that-be and latter-day Moral Majority-type Carrie Nation wannabes have cobbled together a phony narrative that "The World's Oldest Profession" is being controlled by a vast shadowy underground network that I say doesn't exist.

They are promoting this conspiracy theory! I'm trying to debunk it.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:48 pm

Tom, I spent some time viewing your linked local news (comedy) clip – funny. That local `news` programs use syndicated sources instead of employing their own analysts or even newswriters isn`t surprising. I don`t see the connection to human trafficking – except as a mime – that many people will accept any `noise` as being news, and this married to your contention/belief that human trafficking is at least overstated. That is, that most people will take in anything that is presented as fact, without giving it much thought. Nothing new there.

Where did you obtain your magazine of the trafficking report? Anything to suggest a motive for its availability – fund raising, scare tactics, filling a obligatory weight measure for a Sunday newspaper, etc.?

Any thoughts on why anyone would want to cobble together that phony narrative?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:16 pm

TJrandom wrote:Tom, I spent some time viewing your linked local news (comedy) clip – funny. That local `news` programs use syndicated sources instead of employing their own analysts or even newswriters isn`t surprising. I don`t see the connection to human trafficking – except as a mime – that many people will accept any `noise` as being news, and this married to your contention/belief that human trafficking is at least overstated. That is, that most people will take in anything that is presented as fact, without giving it much thought. Nothing new there.

Where did you obtain your magazine of the trafficking report? Anything to suggest a motive for its availability – fund raising, scare tactics, filling a obligatory weight measure for a Sunday newspaper, etc.?

Any thoughts on why anyone would want to cobble together that phony narrative?


That report was handed to me by a friend at a Jam (Jacksonville Atheists Meetup) gathering at a local restaurant where we were playing trivia, and I mean to ask her where she got it the next time I see her.

The Christian Right will use any pretext to try to ban abortion and prostitution, but an ulterior motive for the CIA, if there is one, seems less clear. It could be as simple as a diversionary scare tactic to keep people's minds off their murderous droning.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Gord » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:12 am

Tom Palven wrote:...it is my assertion that a loose association of the powers-that-be and latter-day Moral Majority-type Carrie Nation wannabes have cobbled together a phony narrative that "The World's Oldest Profession" is being controlled by a vast shadowy underground network that I say doesn't exist.

And the UN. Don't forget the UN.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/data-and-ana ... lotip.html
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:03 am

Gord wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:...it is my assertion that a loose association of the powers-that-be and latter-day Moral Majority-type Carrie Nation wannabes have cobbled together a phony narrative that "The World's Oldest Profession" is being controlled by a vast shadowy underground network that I say doesn't exist.

And the UN. Don't forget the UN.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/data-and-ana ... lotip.html


Within that link is a further link to an excel spreadsheet of `Detected victims by forms of exploitation` - and sexual predation totals to roughly 50%. But then it is a UN spreadsheet, so those numbers must be fake. :roll:


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