LED to believe in 40,000 hours

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LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:09 am

40,000 hours – is 4.5 years if used for 24 hours a day, 13.7 years if used for 8 hours a day, and 27.4 years if used for 4 hours a day – which in my case I believe to be the closer estimate to daily use. So my LED bulbs – should last for at least 13 years, and with luck closer to 27. However – I have had LED bulbs stop working at about 5 years, which is why I have posted this in the Scams and Con Games forum...

What has been your experience? How are your LED bulbs advertised – as lasting 40,000 hours, or some other metric?

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:51 am

My own "impression" is that NONE of the bulbs last as long as they advertise. Could it be the rating is with good power and I'm out here in the sticks with voltage spikes all over the place? I don't know. TV's and computers seem to last until tech takes over (power supplies even better now). Every light bulb I've ever put a "date installed" tag on has lasted no more than 75%.

I'm waiting to go all LED. I especially like the bulbs in a strip arrangement for accent or task lighting but don't like all the little transformers that go with them. The compact fluorescents seem especially prone to early death. My gut says LED's should be more robust.

I used to use incandescent in the winter when the heat produced was a good thing then switch to florescents in the summer time. "Seemed Like" several incandescents lasted a few seasons whereas the florescents never did.

Other than color, uv, efficiency....I'm not aware of the next lighting advance. Is LED about "it?"
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:06 am

Well - there ought ‘a be a law... When the box says 40,000 - I want 40,000, and not an hour less. But I get slightly pissed off when I only get a year or so, given the high price tag. Never had issues with incandescent or fluorescents. Did have problems with kerosene lanterns - needing to trim the wick on occasion and clean the globe, but IMO - kerosene beats LEDs.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby JO 753 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:13 am

Electroluminesent plastic will probably be the ultimate.

I had an LED desk lamp here in the offis on 24/7 and it only went for about 6 months befor it wuz too dim.

Floresent tubez and 'bulbz' go for several yirz. They dont last az long if you turn them on & off all the time.

I just installed LED lites in my car doorz. They look way better than the dinjy old filiment bulbz, but it wont suprize me if they die soon.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:26 am

TJrandom wrote:Well - there ought ‘a be a law... When the box says 40,000 - I want 40,000, and not an hour less. But I get slightly pissed off when I only get a year or so, given the high price tag. Never had issues with incandescent or fluorescents. Did have problems with kerosene lanterns - needing to trim the wick on occasion and clean the globe, but IMO - kerosene beats LEDs.

You need to stop using that cheap electricity.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:08 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Well - there ought ‘a be a law... When the box says 40,000 - I want 40,000, and not an hour less. But I get slightly pissed off when I only get a year or so, given the high price tag. Never had issues with incandescent or fluorescents. Did have problems with kerosene lanterns - needing to trim the wick on occasion and clean the globe, but IMO - kerosene beats LEDs.

You need to stop using that cheap electricity.


Unfortunately - my electricity isn`t cheap. We went with LED about 6 years ago as we remodelled and moved to our new home. I haven`t needed to replace all of the LEDs since then - but maybe that is because we don`t usually use all of the rooms. ... Hey - maybe that is what they mean by the 40,000 hours that is printed on the box… it might just be the expected life in the box, sitting unused on the shelf. Who knows?

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Gord » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:41 am

TJrandom wrote:40,000 hours – is 4.5 years if used for 24 hours a day, 13.7 years if used for 8 hours a day, and 27.4 years if used for 4 hours a day – which in my case I believe to be the closer estimate to daily use. So my LED bulbs – should last for at least 13 years, and with luck closer to 27. However – I have had LED bulbs stop working at about 5 years, which is why I have posted this in the Scams and Con Games forum...

Yeah...like this website: http://www.energreentechnologies.com/vi ... d-lighting

...This LED will provide a 40,000 hour life time with up to 82% in energy savings compared to a standard halogen. All of our LED's come with a 5-year warranty....

So the warranty is only good "for the life of the LED" if I leave it on 24 hours a day?

Hmm.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:05 am

Wow - a warranty. I don`t get one of those with mine. But I did once complain to the manufacturer, and they replaced one `for free`, if I would mail them the defective one along with the receipt.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:27 am

Gord wrote:
...This LED will provide a 40,000 hour life time with up to 82% in energy savings compared to a standard halogen. All of our LED's come with a 5-year warranty....

So the warranty is only good "for the life of the LED" if I leave it on 24 hours a day?

Hmm.


Yes, that actually is an excellent warranty.... if you can keep/find the receipt and live near the redemption center. The warranty is against defective product.... the longer it goes the more the product is subject to misuse something the warranty should not cover.

But I agree.... even the good ones are mostly shams. Have to find companies/outlets that are trying to build their market to find ones that meet warranty obligations.

...........but I post to complain about the "standard" terms.... usually only 30 days even on items costing thousands of dollars. Right now, I'm pissed because my garbage disposer has stopped working. I bought that sucker 7 or so years ago. I assume the warranty is 1 year or less..........but they should last "forever." I'm just not going to buy a disposer every 7 years. I stared using the trash bag. Works quite well. Going to plumb the disposer out of my system. Then replace the flooring and sub-floor under the sink and hope the joists are still ok. Ha, ha...... maybe I didn't install it correctly either????

A hole to a bucket to the vegetables? Call me a minimalist too.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:40 am

The typical manufacturer warranty for electronic devices where I purchase - is one year, but for the more expensive ones, it can be extended to 4 years for an additional 5% of the purchase price.

My garbage disposer has been a 20 litre bucket (about 5 gallons) for many years - and gets emptied into a compost pile for recycle to the veggie garden.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby loupgarous » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:05 pm

My wild-ass guess is we're seeing shorter lifespans on LED household lighting products due to voltage spikes, because most consumer electric power's "dirty" on occasion with excursions of voltage above or below 108-120 volts. It's why savvy computer users invest in big surge suppressors - to protect stuff that costs a ton to replace.

While I was a student at Louisiana Tech, I moved my family into a "Victorian" home which had twelve-foot tall ceilings in the big rooms - and dirty power that ate light bulbs like crazy. I finally bought 120-watt light bulbs and a little coin-looking diode at the supermarket advertised as a "power saver". What it actually did was rectified the AC power, so that those 120-watt bulbs were only getting (I assume) the positive-going part of the AC waveform, and 60 watts was fine for our purposes. The reason I put a diode on there was to "tunnel" the electrical waveform, damping out the worst of the voltage spikes. And it worked. No more entertaining "trapeze of death" where Dad stacked a milk carton on a chair on a desk to change light bulbs.

Assuming that these LED lamps have built-in rectifiers in the base to supply DC power to them, there shouldn't be an issue with reverse-biasing of the LEDs themselves, but voltage surges could be beating the rectifiers themselves up to the point that if a diode bridge is used to rectify power instead of higher and more expensive tech, one or more of the diodes could be going away after voltage surges - giving dimmer light as the rectified AC power drops because one or more diodes "fail open".

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby loupgarous » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:24 pm

Now, LEDs ought to work very well, and close to their advertised life-spans, in cars, because compared to home electrical power, modern automobiles have pretty clean power. It's been a long time since a diode went away on an alternator in a car I've owned, causing raucous noise on the AM band of the car radio, crappy battery charging and dim headlamps. Chrysler products, in my experience, were bad about eating alternators and batteries at the same time. Hopefully, as more of the guts in Chryslers, Dodges, Rams and Jeeps are designed by FIAT, that issue will go away.

And it's easier to make an LED light that works well in a car, because cars use direct current, not AC. You can, as long as you get the polarity right and the LED's designed for anything close to 12VDC, just plug it in, and it'll run till its MTBF or longer. Travel trailers are good that way, made to use bayonet-mount 12 volt lamps (in a pinch, car tail-light lamps will work fine) for light fixtures. If I were the God of Home Construction, I'd build a DC converter into every home and run more economical DC light sources - incandescents, LEDs, fluorescents, what have you - from it.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:34 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Well - there ought ‘a be a law... When the box says 40,000 - I want 40,000, and not an hour less. But I get slightly pissed off when I only get a year or so, given the high price tag. Never had issues with incandescent or fluorescents. Did have problems with kerosene lanterns - needing to trim the wick on occasion and clean the globe, but IMO - kerosene beats LEDs.

You need to stop using that cheap electricity.


Unfortunately - my electricity isn`t cheap. We went with LED about 6 years ago as we remodelled and moved to our new home. I haven`t needed to replace all of the LEDs since then - but maybe that is because we don`t usually use all of the rooms. ... Hey - maybe that is what they mean by the 40,000 hours that is printed on the box… it might just be the expected life in the box, sitting unused on the shelf. Who knows?

I didn't say inexpensive, I said cheap. Companies will foist off on the consumer anything that comes down the wire these days.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby JO 753 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:46 pm

loupgarous wrote:If I were the God of Home Construction, I'd build a DC converter into every home and run more economical DC light sources - incandescents, LEDs, fluorescents, what have you - from it.


http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/the-home-of-tomorrow-will-run-on-direct-current
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:15 pm

loupgarous wrote:My wild-ass guess is we're seeing shorter lifespans on LED household lighting products due to voltage spikes, because most consumer electric power's "dirty" on occasion with excursions of voltage above or below 108-120 volts. It's why savvy computer users invest in big surge suppressors - to protect stuff that costs a ton to replace.

While I was a student at Louisiana Tech, I moved my family into a "Victorian" home which had twelve-foot tall ceilings in the big rooms - and dirty power that ate light bulbs like crazy. I finally bought 120-watt light bulbs and a little coin-looking diode at the supermarket advertised as a "power saver". What it actually did was rectified the AC power, so that those 120-watt bulbs were only getting (I assume) the positive-going part of the AC waveform, and 60 watts was fine for our purposes. The reason I put a diode on there was to "tunnel" the electrical waveform, damping out the worst of the voltage spikes. And it worked. No more entertaining "trapeze of death" where Dad stacked a milk carton on a chair on a desk to change light bulbs.

Assuming that these LED lamps have built-in rectifiers in the base to supply DC power to them, there shouldn't be an issue with reverse-biasing of the LEDs themselves, but voltage surges could be beating the rectifiers themselves up to the point that if a diode bridge is used to rectify power instead of higher and more expensive tech, one or more of the diodes could be going away after voltage surges - giving dimmer light as the rectified AC power drops because one or more diodes "fail open".


Thanks for this possible explanation....

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Lance Kennedy » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:07 am

My home is nine years old, built under the watchful eyes and designing ways of myself and lovely wife. We have had LED indicator lights on TV and computers etc glowing for all nine years, 24 hours a day, and none have burned out. We have been installing LED lights in place of incandescent ones as they burn out. None have yet failed. However, one of the things I insisted on when the house was built was an effective electrical spike filter, for all our incoming power, to eliminate spikes on our power supply.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:30 am

I guess there are things intelligent people can do for home electricity .
I would not be one of that group :-(

on the opposite end , I do believe there are a lot (1000s ?) of people who are on welfare / do not pay for utilities .
who run air conditions continuously and open windows when it gets too cold .
just saying I believe there is enormous waste of energy by a huge chunk of humanity ; who easily wipe out the efforts of those
intelligent people who try .
for the real minority ; there will be no justice , there will be no peace .
makes sense 2me , so it has 2be wrong .

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:44 am

Huge chunks of humanity are an enormous waste of energy.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby exponent » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:12 pm

The problem is that when they say 40,000 hours under what conditions. For some tests there are standards and there are also standards bodies such as ASTM. When a manufacturer specifies the life of a bulb it is under their conditions. I worked for years as an engineer and a lot of my work was in failure analysis. A large percentage of devices fail under transient conditions. Think light bulb - have you ever seen one just stop working while you had it on? Most fail when powered up. In the case of long life electrical devices one cannot test 40,000 hours until failure because that is 4+ years so what they do is look at the failure modes and make measurements on the device under test. They then use this data to extrapolate the expected lifetime. Some manufacturers use HALT (Highly Accelerated Lifetime Testing) to get reliability data but other than providing failure modes it is mostly used for identifying product weaknesses. now all said LED is the way to go - they are more energy efficient the incandescent or CFL and are much easier on the enviroment. IMO CFLs should be outlawed as they end up in the landfills where they will leach their mercury.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:47 am

Thanks, but the 40,000 hours on the package is still a scam IMO.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Flash » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:25 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:
on the opposite end , I do believe there are a lot (1000s ?) of people who are on welfare / do not pay for utilities .
who run air conditions continuously and open windows when it gets too cold .

And that's why LEDs burn out prematurely?
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:54 pm

Flash wrote:psychiatry is a scam wrote:
on the opposite end , I do believe there are a lot (1000s ?) of people who are on welfare / do not pay for utilities .
who run air conditions continuously and open windows when it gets too cold .

And that's why LEDs burn out prematurely?


Yep. The physics is a bit . . . um . . . complicated. Lots of math and stuff too.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Hex » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:14 pm

There are other components in a LED bulb that can fail other than the actual bulb. Maybe the bulb is rated for that life but not all the other stuff? I'm no expert just postulating.

Personally I don't care if they make some outrageous claims, right now LED bulbs are the pinnacle of lighting for conservation. Plus the cost has gone way down. Around my parts I can get LED bulbs for $2.50 a piece. I just bought a outdoor floodlight LED for $4.00. If I even get 5 years out of a bulb, coupled with the savings I get with energy it is an investment that is well worth the over all cost. Right now my entire house is LED only and I am more than satisfied with how it is working out.
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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby Lance Kennedy » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:41 pm

I have LED indicator lights on my TV that have been glowing continuously for 12 years (105,000) hours. While that is not quite the same as a light bulb, it shows what they can do.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:07 am

Hex wrote:There are other components in a LED bulb that can fail other than the actual bulb. Maybe the bulb is rated for that life but not all the other stuff? I'm no expert just postulating.

Personally I don't care if they make some outrageous claims, right now LED bulbs are the pinnacle of lighting for conservation. Plus the cost has gone way down. Around my parts I can get LED bulbs for $2.50 a piece. I just bought a outdoor floodlight LED for $4.00. If I even get 5 years out of a bulb, coupled with the savings I get with energy it is an investment that is well worth the over all cost. Right now my entire house is LED only and I am more than satisfied with how it is working out.


Good point. I am sure that we pay significantly more than you do, managed competition being the nature of our economy, but for the sake of the planet and all, LEDs are the only option.

We too have LEDs except where they haven`t yet made one that will do the necessary lighting task - such as directional lighting in a china cabinet where the socket is horizontal mounted. The LED would need to be `side lit` and `rotation enabled` such that when inserted/screwed in horizontally and bottomed out in the socket, the light can be directed downward, 90 degrees from the plane of the socket. The only LEDs I have seen direct light away from the socket.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby IrritableBadger » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:25 am

Exponent has it pretty much dead on.

If you recreate the test environment defined by whatever standard is being used to validate the manufacturers claims you're going to get results like the compliance certification lab got (repeatability being what standards are about).

The 40k lifecycle figure is legit, but nobody actually uses lights in a standards compliant living room (hence the living part). Lights get cycled far more than they are designed to. Even worse, the cycles are often overlapping and the diodes don't reach a stable state (on or off) before they are forced to do a 180 and go to other direction. Even more detrimental to the ultimate service life are overlapping state cycles when there's a an active dimmer on the circuit. On an oscilloscope you can see the square waves being created as noise is introduced by the now utterly confused diode.

Unfortunately for LED's, the resilience of a device to state change induced damage is a direct function of the device's efficiency. Wildly inefficient devices like electric stoves and old incandescent bulbs are able to absorb a lot more damage than highly efficient devices like LED's. At the present time there's no way to avoid the resilience/efficiency tradeoff.

At the end of the day the fact is there is no way to control how the devices are used or the environment in which they are used. That being the case the only way to establish a viable product comparison system is to subject all the examples in a category to identical testing protocols.

All things being equal, you should see all diodes in a given category performing about the same in a given setting. In other words, any LED's of the same category in your house will all have the same failure times regardless of manufacturer.

Frankly, the system in place is the best way to protect consumers. Without a common basis of comparison manufacturers would have total control over how they supported their claims. You'd see endless contradictory statements and wonky metrics that didn't actually mean anything.

The issue is really one of consumer education, not a scam by lighting manufacturers. That said, lighting manufacturers are doing a terrible job of educating customers. Consumers should understand how to use the manufacturer supplied information in their purchase decisions. Nobody benefits from the way things are currently being done.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby TJrandom » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:55 pm

Thanks for that - but I still feel cheated when a high priced item that was advertised for 40,000 hours gets less than 7,000 under `normal` usage - as a kitchen light - on, and off again maybe as many as 5 cycles in a day. I would have still bought them if they had only been advertised for 20,000 hours.

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Re: LED to believe in 40,000 hours

Postby IrritableBadger » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:28 pm

I don't disagree, but I don't know what a better system would look like.

The test labs are something of an oddity in today's world. Their noses are kept clean by the insurance companies that underwrite the lighting manufacturers. The risks associated with making consumer electrical devices are huge and the compliance labs are the cornerstone of the underwriters liability defense. The relationship is something of a safety net for us and I'm wary of anything that introduces commercial leverage into a process that's strictly engineering.

Another point of consideration is the horizontal nature of contemporary electrical device manufacturing. There aren't many companies that actually manufacture electrical components.

The LED mines in Mongolia crank out most of the actual diodes and associated control components and similar companies turn out the other bits. The lighting manufacturers mostly concern themselves with aesthetics and marketing. Although they use robust CAD systems to drag and drop catalog parts into their design there isn't a big engineering presence involved.

Here again is something of a safeguard for us. When everyone is walking the same walk you can safely reduce or remove the need for aerospace level engineering in consumer products. One or two actual engineers can design and implement catalog based component filtering that prevents dozens or hundreds of designers from mashing together incompatible components.

The same applies in purchasing. The procurement people aren't the people you want managing parts substitutions using engineering data. You give them a BOM and as long as the components meet the cited standard(s) it'll work.

While it does suck that 40k hours may not be realized in the field there's a huge amount of consumer protection built into the system. I honestly don't know where the line between affordability and safety should be drawn. But I do know that as long as the line is the same for everybody there's at least common ground to work from.

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Something to say

Postby trestontape » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:45 am

Ok.... I have actual LEDs,NOT BULBS.
I bought them in 2011, and have never turned them off since.... They are my nephews nightlight. I was expecting them to go off a fee months ago, but they are still going.
I wonder why? ( i also have them etaped)

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Re: Something to say

Postby TJrandom » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:29 pm

trestontape wrote:Ok.... I have actual LEDs,NOT BULBS.
I bought them in 2011, and have never turned them off since.... They are my nephews nightlight. I was expecting them to go off a fee months ago, but they are still going.
I wonder why? ( i also have them etaped)


So you have reached the 40,000 hours more or less. Great luck, or maybe just better engineering plus no `cycling`.

No idea what etaped means.... :?:


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