Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Gord » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:21 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:A surprising piece from the Associated Press criticizes Netanyahu, today.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ ... 5-01-22-55

Is this a new spin from the US State Dept, and an indication of future US acceptance of full UN recognition of a Palestinian state?


The link has gone from this one.


Sorry. I didn't copy it, and don't even remember what it said. I checked some of the news sites that I scan, and can't find the piece. Maybe it's been cleansed from the web, or maybe somebody clever like Gord can find where that link goes.

Huh? How would I know how to find it? :|

Oh, wait, here it is: http://www.salon.com/2014/08/25/israel_ ... xtremists/

No, that's not the one. This was just the other day. But, thanks.

Well, that's weird. I googled the website address you gave, http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ ... 5-01-22-55

Google found it, and gave me the first few words in the article that was there (but ain't there no more), and that was what came up.

Silly Google.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Gord wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Gord wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:A surprising piece from the Associated Press criticizes Netanyahu, today.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ ... 5-01-22-55

Is this a new spin from the US State Dept, and an indication of future US acceptance of full UN recognition of a Palestinian state?


The link has gone from this one.


Sorry. I didn't copy it, and don't even remember what it said. I checked some of the news sites that I scan, and can't find the piece. Maybe it's been cleansed from the web, or maybe somebody clever like Gord can find where that link goes.

Huh? How would I know how to find it? :|

Oh, wait, here it is: http://www.salon.com/2014/08/25/israel_ ... xtremists/

No, that's not the one. This was just the other day. But, thanks.

Well, that's weird. I googled the website address you gave, http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ ... 5-01-22-55

Google found it, and gave me the first few words in the article that was there (but ain't there no more), and that was what came up.

Silly Google.

Can you recall the first few words of the article? My short-term memory is gone, and I need a clue. :oldman:
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:56 am

Kerry apparently calls for a two-state solution instead of the usual, decades old, calling for talks about the two-state solution.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/mi ... emism.html
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:21 am

Oops. Sorry. According to Israeli news, Kerry said that talks are vital:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... EDQ7Zt0yUk
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:51 pm

The Likud Party is cementing its theocracy:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 94870.html
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OlegTheBatty » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:14 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:The Likud Party is cementing its theocracy:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 94870.html

This story is a good illustration of Martin's point in another thread that voting does not equal democracy.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:06 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:The Likud Party is cementing its theocracy:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 94870.html

This story is a good illustration of Martin's point in another thread that voting does not equal democracy.


True in that context, but that's exactly the same thing that Rudy Giuliani said after Mubarak's henchman General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi overthrew Egypt's Freedom and Justice Party government, which was unable to actually take power since the US continued to fund al Sisi, and still does, with hundreds of millions of dollar in aid.

Since that time, al-Sisi has imprisoned F&J Party parliament winners, journalists, and political opponents he accused of homosexual activity, and has banned freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and other civil liberties.
http://www.fjponline.com/

So, maybe, sometimes democracy is better.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:57 am

Netanyahu warns the French not to support Palestinian statehood:

http://rt.com/news/208187-israel-france-grave-mistake
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:23 am

This article by Eric Margolis again brings up the question about whether the US will announce support for a two-state solution now that the mid-term elections are over, and maybe reduces the time frame. Will after the Republican senate convenes in mid-January be too late?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/eric ... hara-kiri/
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:40 am

Palestine to push for UN statehood vote:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 25624.html
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:36 am

Now, the US may not veto a UN vote for a Palestinian state after Israeli elections in March?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.632816
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:13 pm

Israeli settlement expansion continues, as per Likud Party platform:
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/02/23/isra ... 40-in-2014
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:43 am

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:43 am

Netanyahu speech "nothing new."

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/03/03/noth ... us-speech/

Ron Paul agrees with Netanyahu that Israel can take care of itself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ECgLpwPg4
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:01 am

The best congress money can buy. Article by Eric Margolis:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/03/eri ... cal-golem/
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:05 am

The Israeli Likud government has decried the demands of UN members for the recognition of a Palestinian state on the grounds that such a state should be negotiated by Israel and the Palestinian Authority alone.

The good news obtained from the Netanyahu re-election process has been his tacit admission that these endless "negotiations" have been a sham.

It might be interesting if Jimmy Carter has something to say about this.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:09 am

Tom-Palven wrote:The good news obtained from the Netanyahu re-election process has been his tacit admission that these endless "negotiations" have been a sham.

Yes. Netanyahu won the election by slitting his own throat on the international stage. Unfortunately, President Obama is a great diplomat and peacemaker, otherwise I would like Obama to crucify Netanyahu slowly for his recalcitrance over the new future country of Palestine.

It also looks like I may be able to finally do "my archaeological dig" in Iran, that was postponed in 1979. I imagine that Iran will very quickly "Westernise" and become a friendly partner, once the sanctions are lifted. My friend who works in Iran says there is a vibrant intellectual class simply waiting for freedom of speech.

Tom-Palven wrote:It might be interesting if Jimmy Carter has something to say about this.
I also like Jimmy Carter. He's a good bloke.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:15 pm

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:33 am

US veto not guaranteed?
http://news.antiwar.com/2015/04/01/isra ... ns-worsen/

We'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat May 09, 2015 10:10 am

"I'm shocked."-- Casablanca

Anyone else old enough to remember Lucy Van Pelt pulling away Charlie Brown's football?

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/05/08/us-d ... ent-plans/
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:35 pm

Not quite the same as allowing the UN to recognize Palestine, but still a poke in Netanyahu's eye:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/ ... CE20150714
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:56 am

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:24 pm

Obama versus Bibi Round 11

Still hoping the Obama administration announces that it will no longer threaten a UN veto of Palestinian statehood recognition, but here's other stuff.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/08/pat ... ma-v-bibi/
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:59 am

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:07 am

Religious lunacy that gets a pass from the US:

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/10/26/neta ... territory/
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:53 am

I think this thread and topic, including Netanyahu and Israel, are in a different state of inertia: they appears to be frozen in time or slow down the 'State' with respect to our own frame of references. :lol:
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:02 am

Tom-Palven wrote:The good news obtained from the Netanyahu re-election process has been his tacit admission that these endless "negotiations" have been a sham.

I haven't followed the I/P issue for a couple of years. Is it still the case that the endless negotiations have been a sham on both sides---or "should" Israel give away too much to pacify World Opinion (sic) when the Palestinians (sic) have not given up their long term and often stated position to wipe Israel from the Map?

Two state solution only works if those two nations in fact recognize the "right" of both to exist. Absent that....its just a state of war with various levels of BS sprinkled liberally around.

The realpolitik solution for Israel is to use Intifada 3 to push all the Arabs out of Israel, take over the Muslim Holy sites in Total, and tell those who think otherwise to stuff it.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:21 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Religious lunacy that gets a pass from the US:

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/10/26/neta ... territory/


This bald link above reports on Netanyahus statement he will not give up occupied territory as long as the Arab policy is controlled by Muslim fundies. Tom: where do you identify the Religious Lunacy? I aske because my quick perusal showed me you might think it is on Bibi's part?....which is why I'm going through your unannoted links.

I agree with Netanyahu. He agreed to talk...why are concessions necessary BEFORE the Arabs agree that Israel has a right to exist?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:31 am

Tom-Palven wrote:American Jews support Iran deal:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... iran-deal/

Yep....easy to be for peace and accept the attendant risks when those risks will be visited upon not you but another group 6,000 miles away. OTOH--if the Iran Deal was the best that could have been gotten given the various players, then I agree with the group and Netanyahu is not best dealing with the opportunities here. He should engage in Sham agreement rather than impotent bellowing.....((depending on what responses he actually has available to him which in large part may be very conditional on just what he decides to do? An example of a single man "making" history?))
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:39 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Obama versus Bibi Round 11

Still hoping the Obama administration announces that it will no longer threaten a UN veto of Palestinian statehood recognition, but here's other stuff.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/08/pat ... ma-v-bibi/

Who is still hoping? The article is about Netanyanhu's moves to undermine Obama's Iran Deal. If he succeeds, Americas image and effectiveness in World Politics will be greatly deminished. Sadly for Netanyahu...I think this horse has left the barn. The Sanctions Program continuing might have been better for Israel, but striking the deal will leave a mess worse than having the deal.

With Russia now bombing in Syria, its most doubtful Obama will not veto any UN Recognition of Palestine as a separate State. Although.....it would be kinda interesting what the follow on would be if the UN did recognize Palestine...but Israel did not. Ha, ha....there's a goat fest.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:43 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Carrots and sticks:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/07/dan ... a-to-bibi/

One of the more crap filled nonsense articles I have read. The Nuke Deal is not peace breaking out between Iran and the US. No one refuses foreign aid because it might muddy some higher principle....or at least not Israel.

Silly.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:48 am

Tom-Palven wrote:Not quite the same as allowing the UN to recognize Palestine, but still a poke in Netanyahu's eye:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/ ... CE20150714

As you can tell, I'm very Hawkish in support of Israel. That said, I support the Iran Nuke Deal as the alternative is Iran surely getting Nukes amid a faltering sanctions program......and WAR always remains as an option whether by Israel alone or with US direct participation as would be justified by any Iranian violation.

I think Netanayhu is correct in his position and understanding of the threats to Israel, but handling his statements and positions a bit "sub-optimally." Being under existential threat to your existence your entire life.....hard to avoid?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:53 am

Tom-Palven wrote:"I'm shocked."-- Casablanca

Anyone else old enough to remember Lucy Van Pelt pulling away Charlie Brown's football?

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/05/08/us-d ... ent-plans/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Link addresses that "Building Incompatible With Two-State Solution" which is true. but Hey==if you want your Nation State, stop futzing around and losing territory while you bargain for the perfect deal....which is never going to happen.

I support building settlements and keeping those lands. It should be the wake up call the the Arabs that they better go for peace before all "their" land is gobbled up.

Reality ............... is such a Bitch.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The realpolitik solution for Israel is to use Intifada 3 to push all the Arabs out of Israel, take over the Muslim Holy sites in Total, and tell those who think otherwise to stuff it.

Umm that would be Israel's "suicide solution" if anything. One of the wisest thing the israelis did after the 6day war was to not touch the temple grounds but keep it as it was. {!#%@} with that could provoke who knows what from who knows who.

As for the rest of the plan, will you provide thorough definitions of what "arab" and "Israel" means in this context? Bear in mind that Jerusalem (which is the real issue) has always been and always will be a religiously divided city filled with various fanatics.

I see only disaster ahead as long as Israel will insist on being a jewish majority country. (Which is why they havent just annexed the west bank. Like the land, not the people) They have tried the military option you allude to for a while now. It doesnt seem to result in anything looking like peace.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:59 pm

Thanks OOB==I hope you didn't have to bite your tongue? Suicide Solution? How so? In my mind, Israel is on a slow suicide path RIGHT NOW in bargaining away land with a people who only want to wipe them from the map. Why do THAT? I'm suggesting Israel do what every other Nation State in the World has always done: conquer the land, expel the native population or most of them, don't contenance the return of your enemies...aka no "Right of Return." Name a single other Nation State that has allowed that? Suicide solution is to act with more concern for the human rights of your enemy than they have for you.

I'm not saying to desecrate or alter the Temple Grounds but rather to take full authority over the ground. Allow the Muslims access as the situation may thereafter indicate. Thats what losing a War means, you become a tourist.

Arab means everyone thats not Israeli as there has never been a State of Palestine nor a Palestinian people. There have always been Arabs in that area but Nation State really is the theme of the Conflict. The surrounding Arab States for a variety of reasons will not take in what would normally be considered their own people. Instead, the Arab States in the area have called them Palestinians and ghettoized them in the Gaza Strip to keep the area in turmoil.

I see only disaster ahead as long as Israel will insist on being a jewish majority country.
Well.....there is the point of a long sharp set of horns. Given all the Arabs in the area want Israel to be wiped off the map and all the Jews killed, what do you think is going to happen as they become a smaller and smaller minority within their own country?? Peace? I don't think so....and it is THIS ISSUE that makes me so belligerent. If Israel wants to exist in the future, I think they have to do what needs to be done now while they have the strength and advantages to do so.

This is all what I "think." Not because it is what I like or think is "right" but because when I look at History, that is the dynamic I see in play all the time: Nation States are made and maintained by force of arms, meaning you kill the other guy. Fail to do that, and you get killed yourself and the Nation State of Palestine is born. A few exceptions and quibbles of course....but not when the religious animosity of Muslims towards Jews runs as deep and foul as it does.

Thats my view. I've heard lots of Palestinian spokespeople for the other side. They always argue the justifications for what they want to do based on what happened 70 or more years ago. The two state solution is only possible when you think in the present about the future.

In short, Israel may well be screwed "no matter what" they do......but I'd rather die fighting than give the other guy the knife.

What the Palestinians (sic) need is Nelson Mandela to put the past aside, to put the religious elements aside, to finesse the recent history, and become a real partner in Peace with Israel. All there has been is a sham process from the Muslims to better advantage themselves to wipe Israel from the Map.

Do you see any Nelson Mandela in Palestines future?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom-Palven wrote:The good news obtained from the Netanyahu re-election process has been his tacit admission that these endless "negotiations" have been a sham.

I haven't followed the I/P issue for a couple of years. Is it still the case that the endless negotiations have been a sham on both sides---or "should" Israel give away too much to pacify World Opinion (sic) when the Palestinians (sic) have not given up their long term and often stated position to wipe Israel from the Map?

Two state solution only works if those two nations in fact recognize the "right" of both to exist. Absent that....its just a state of war with various levels of BS sprinkled liberally around.

The realpolitik solution for Israel is to use Intifada 3 to push all the Arabs out of Israel, take over the Muslim Holy sites in Total, and tell those who think otherwise to stuff it.

Ohhh....now THAT would be the greatest "final solution" wouldn't it? Sounds familiar. :roll:
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:41 pm

Scott: "Ohhh....now THAT would be the greatest "final solution" wouldn't it? Sounds familiar."


Yes, its the way of the world except that nothing is final. Just the premise for the next development. All such attitudes and realities having common and disparate elements. Netanyahu must stand firm and treat Israel as Monroe did America with its Manifest Destiny.

Good call.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Scott Mayers » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Scott: "Ohhh....now THAT would be the greatest "final solution" wouldn't it? Sounds familiar."


Yes, its the way of the world except that nothing is final. Just the premise for the next development. All such attitudes and realities having common and disparate elements. Netanyahu must stand firm and treat Israel as Monroe did America with its Manifest Destiny.

Good call.

Are you joking or do you not get the reference? :?
I eat without fear of certain Death from The Tree of Knowledge because with wisdom, we may one day break free from its mortal curse.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:13 pm

Scott: the closest example of foreigners going to a new land and killing all the native peoples to make room for themselves is the European colonization of the New World. I can't think of any closer event. Of course, there are other Nation Building examples that aren't as close, but why would I go for a defective comparison??

After all........ this isn't the Monty Hall Challenge now is it.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Thanks OOB==I hope you didn't have to bite your tongue? Suicide Solution? How so? In my mind, Israel is on a slow suicide path RIGHT NOW in bargaining away land with a people who only want to wipe them from the map. Why do THAT? I'm suggesting Israel do what every other Nation State in the World has always done: conquer the land, expel the native population or most of them, don't contenance the return of your enemies...aka no "Right of Return." Name a single other Nation State that has allowed that? Suicide solution is to act with more concern for the human rights of your enemy than they have for you.

1. They have not bargained away anything. Part of the problem.
2. Traditionally conquered populaces are subject to genocide, slavery or merging of populations. Are you suggesting one of the former? Either way, this is not a case of a "conquering people" but groups of people who have lived there for millennia, with various "great power" interference tipping scales one way or the other from time to time.
3. Israel do not act with particular concern for their enemies' human rights when it doesn't suit them.

Arab means everyone thats not Israeli as there has never been a State of Palestine nor a Palestinian people. There have always been Arabs in that area but Nation State really is the theme of the Conflict. The surrounding Arab States for a variety of reasons will not take in what would normally be considered their own people. Instead, the Arab States in the area have called them Palestinians and ghettoized them in the Gaza Strip to keep the area in turmoil.

So, someone who can trace their family roots in the area back 1000 years can be expelled to a Foreign land because they arent jewish? (To be replaced by jewish immigrants who have never lived there) Or should you be obliged to move to neighbouring countries if it is deemed that they represent the same language and culture group as yourself? "Canadians dont need Canada, the US is right there With lots of room and same language and culture. So {!#%@} off, regards native americans"

Nation states is indeed the problem in the former imperial regions of the world, since People havent settled in neatly demarcated nation states, but rather as a hodgepodge of villages. Nowhere moreso than in the middle east and balkans. (Europe "fixed" it's problems (or at least delayed them) through 2 world WARs) In Israel/Palestine/Syria every hill (and that's almost not exagerrating) has it's own brand of ethnicity and it's own mix of religious beliefs that get sorted under one major religion or another.

How strictly ethnic nation states can bring any sort of Peace to such an environment, you tell me.

I see only disaster ahead as long as Israel will insist on being a jewish majority country.
Well.....there is the point of a long sharp set of horns. Given all the Arabs in the area want Israel to be wiped off the map and all the Jews killed, what do you think is going to happen as they become a smaller and smaller minority within their own country?? Peace? I don't think so....and it is THIS ISSUE that makes me so belligerent. If Israel wants to exist in the future, I think they have to do what needs to be done now while they have the strength and advantages to do so.

Peace will not happen as long as either or both sides prefer to let the extremists speak for the other side. Not everything is Israel's fault at all, but it is the knee-jerk support of their violations that bug me from some quarters. It is not a football match where you have to root for one team. Actually, the sane option is to call off the whole game. There will be extremists here, have been for millennia. If they are allowed to set the agenda, violence and chaos ensues. To give any one side full support is madness, since they have always lived side by side although often not peacefully

This is all what I "think." Not because it is what I like or think is "right" but because when I look at History, that is the dynamic I see in play all the time: Nation States are made and maintained by force of arms, meaning you kill the other guy. Fail to do that, and you get killed yourself and the Nation State of Palestine is born. A few exceptions and quibbles of course....but not when the religious animosity of Muslims towards Jews runs as deep and foul as it does.

Most of history is without any nation states. They dont really exist until the 1800s at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_st ... nd_origins
And most states/nations/ethnic Groups live side by side without constant bloodshed. Weird, I know. It's like People have a penchant for Cooperation or something. But in some Places there are tensions, yes.

Thats my view. I've heard lots of Palestinian spokespeople for the other side. They always argue the justifications for what they want to do based on what happened 70 or more years ago. The two state solution is only possible when you think in the present about the future.

You can put me down as not giving a {!#%@} about history score keeping.

In short, Israel may well be screwed "no matter what" they do......but I'd rather die fighting than give the other guy the knife.

If they continue to cling on to a militarily enforced jewish majority state, they will be screwed. If they let that go and extend rights to the Citizens they include in their otherwise functional civil society things will improve mightily. The US managed to release it's slaves, South Africa Integrated it's blacks. It can be done.

What the Palestinians (sic) need is Nelson Mandela to put the past aside, to put the religious elements aside, to finesse the recent history, and become a real partner in Peace with Israel. All there has been is a sham process from the Muslims to better advantage themselves to wipe Israel from the Map.

Do you see any Nelson Mandela in Palestines future?

I would like a Mandela figure, but those can only prevail if the climate allows them to. To many jews and muslims still think about "winning", and both sides let the extremists speak for the other. But as long as the palestinians in the occupied territories live in a more or less defacto apartheid situation, and a large young population live without any hope of a job or future crippled by Israeli sanctions, there is ripe conditions for recruiting extremist soldiers. You can't "win" that situation by military Power. You win it by giving these youths a way into a decent life.

I dont have the solution to it all. But I know it doesn't lie with cheerleading one side or the other. Nor does it work to view either side as a single monolithic entity, when both (probably more than 2 sides as well) are fractured and splintered into many groups.

For context, I recommend the book "Jerusalem" about the history of Jerusalem up through history. (Dont worry, it is not written by a gung-ho palestinian activist but by a jew whose Family has history in Jerusalem)
http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Biograp ... =Jerusalem


Peace
Dan
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"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert


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