Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:19 am

Matt: I said balance, and was thinking actually as the USA proxy against the Russian proxies. Who could win a direct armed conflict is rather irrelevant don't you think? Nukes don't balance anything? You don't have to be able to "win" militarily, if militarily your enemy won't attack. (Nukes!) Balance is present as a listening post, staging area, testing ground ...etc.

Are the Russian Jews in Israel pro Russian in any material sense? ... or as compared to being Pro-Israel?

Re Our Game of Twenty Questions....its funny how much of that you have wrong. But its about "me" and I don't get much out of delving into my personal life: I already know it. Just as a matter of fact though assisting both Israel AND Lebanon while stating I didn't "fight" anyone is the fact of the matter whatever else you are misinterpreting.

My views are an ASSESSMENT, not meant to bring anything anywhere except a rational understanding of the way things are. Like evolution: a RESULT, not a cause. Who have you been talking to? Ha, ha.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: I said balance, and was thinking actually as the USA proxy against the Russian proxies.
There was no proxy war between Russia and the USA over Israel. Russia sold Arab countries weapons. The proxy wars were the Korean War and Vietnam.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Nukes don't balance anything?
How is Israel going to drop a 25 kiloton weapon on the occupied territories without wiping out Israelis? Israel has "geared up" for a large conventional war, including the ludicrous expense, and then got its arse kicked by Hellbollah, using hand held weapons. This is why Israel (after the 2006 arse kicking) is reluctant to go into urban fighting. The attrition rate, of dead Israeli soldiers, from any sustained larger urban fighting would make the IDF useless in three months. They just don't have the numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7i_U3E2lSE

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Are the Russian Jews in Israel pro Russian in any material sense? ... or as compared to being Pro-Israel?
Yisrael Beiteinu, their political party is basically pro-Russian. It's the third largest party. It is where we get the recent Israeli word "refuseniks". There is anecdotal evidence they communicate direct with Moscow.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:47 am

Matt:

1. I agree.... but I never said Proxy War...just proxies. See the difference?....

2. I agree.... if I were Israel in a WAR with Russia, I would not bomb the occupied territories.

3. Re Pro-Russian Israeli faction: I did not know that. Thanks for the Info. I'll bet THEY are a pain in the ass to talk to?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Are the Russian Jews in Israel pro Russian in any material sense? ... or as compared to being Pro-Israel?

My views are an ASSESSMENT, not meant to bring anything anywhere except a rational understanding of the way things are. Like evolution: a RESULT, not a cause. Who have you been talking to? Ha, ha.


When my second wife, Margaret Mary nee Donohue, visited Ireland a passport control officer told her "Welcome home." That was cute and friendly, and appreciated.

I, with Russian, Polish, Moldovan, British ancestors, find the US to be my homeland. This is where I was born and where I live. And NOT BEING RELGIOUS, I DON'T HAVE A RELGIOUS HOMELAND.

My question is this. Do Jews really require a "homeland"?

What if the Israeli government stopped its expansion and withdrew to the pre-1967 borders, AND THEN ANNOUNCED THAT ISRAEL IS NOW A KIND OF WORLD RELIGOUS HERITAGE SITE, LIKE, SAY VATICAN CITY, LOURDES, OR MECCA, that should be protected as such by the UN?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:05 am

Tom Palven wrote:My question is this. Do Jews really require a "homeland"? /// Of course not. No one does. Its a play to the emotions of those aroused by such sentiments.

What if the Israeli government stopped its expansion and withdrew to the pre-1967 borders, AND THEN ANNOUNCED THAT ISRAEL IS NOW A KIND OF WORLD RELIGOUS HERITAGE SITE, LIKE, SAY VATICAN CITY, LOURDES, OR MECCA, that should be protected as such by the UN?
// Doesn't matter what Israel does--the surrounding Arabs would be after them all the same. I think to get UN protection, which practically amounts to no protection at all, its the UN that has to make the declaration.....but the Arabs would remain the same.

I think you meant some other series of issues? Ones that make a difference??
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:53 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:My question is this. Do Jews really require a "homeland"? ///

Doesn't matter what Israel does--the surrounding Arabs would be after them all the same. I think to get UN protection, which practically amounts to no protection at all, its the UN that has to make the declaration.....but the Arabs would remain the same.


I'm not sure that's true. The systematic disenfranchisement of the Palestinians by The Little Satan and supported by The Great Satan is a major source of irritation to Muslims.

The Arab League once promised to guarantee Israel's borders if they were withdrawn to the pre-67 levels as outlined in the Oslo accords, and, of course, all NATO countries would fight on Israel's behalf; and beyond that Israel has a powerful air force and nukes.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:05 pm

Tom: I don't follow you. You seem to be taking both positions. I say the Arabs will stay the same, meaning anti-Israel existing at all, and then you say you don't think that is true but that the Arabs are greatly irritated by the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians......a conflict, and I don't follow it.

Everytime I have heard about the Arabs agreeing to peace, it ultimately comes out that they at the same time or quickly thereafter have some kicker that negates any putative agreement. Most often: the right of return.

I don't know, and would never trust, NATO to defend Israel, even if they wanted to. Israel is so small and so vulnerable that a successful war by the Arabs would probably be won in 2-3 days or lost in 1-2 weeks.....ie..before NATO could get its pants on too busy blaming each other for failure to take the lead.

Disenfranchisement resulting in apartheid and ultimately to genocide. Kinda ironic.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Tom: I don't follow you. You seem to be taking both positions. I say the Arabs will stay the same, meaning anti-Israel existing at all, and then you say you don't think that is true but that the Arabs are greatly irritated by the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians......a conflict, and I don't follow it.


It just seems that if Israel maintained stable borders that it would reduce that source of hatred-generating irritation.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/q ... 24323.html
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:13 am

Tom Palven wrote:It just seems that if Israel maintained stable borders that it would reduce that source of hatred-generating irritation.

Well.....of course it would do that. Leaving unaddressed their MAIN GOAL of Israel not existing at all. Getting stable borders just one nibble to that larger meal.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:15 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:It just seems that if Israel maintained stable borders that it would reduce that source of hatred-generating irritation.

Well.....of course it would do that. Leaving unaddressed their MAIN GOAL of Israel not existing at all. Getting stable borders just one nibble to that larger meal.


Do you think that the Likudniks are on the right course, then, in attempting to drive the native Palestinians out of the occupied territories, much as the Cherokees were driven out of the US Southeast? Or has that not been the policy?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:28 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Do you think that the Likudniks are on the right course, then, in attempting to drive the native Palestinians out of the occupied territories, much as the Cherokees were driven out of the US Southeast? Or has that not been the policy?

On balance: Yes, I think they are "right" in that the way you control land is to occupy it. The criticism I have is that Israel should be making it clear all along that the longer the Palestinians/Arabs stall in reaching a peace agreement, the less land they will ultimately get. People seem to be unwilling to openly discuss the strategic realities of cultures/peoples/states in conflict: you gain and maintain land only as long as you are willing and able to fight and kill the enemy for it. Israel talks the peace position while pursuing the war/grab land position. Pros and Cons to all we do.

I can't think of any other pressure the Palestinians "ought" to respond to? And it can't be stated often enough, the entire notion of "Palestinians" is suspect. They are ARABS who used to live in the area but lost a war to keep it. Excellent joke Drew Carey used to tell: "If the Indians wanted to keep their land, they should have fought harder for it." You know: consequences to what we do and don't do.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:59 pm

No - Palestinian would be a perfectly good notion, and one that's been around for a long, long time. The ARABS (why did you capitalise that?) did not lose a war to keep it (although they've lost a couple in the vague hope of getting it back). They were, in essence, voted out of it by the rest of the world. It's that decision by the UN in 1947 which is at the core of the problem. Whether or not you or I agree with the notion of a Jewish homeland is actually neither here nor there to a displaced Palestinian - and there's the root cause of everything which has followed.

EDIT: There you go - I actually forgot to say what I meant to. As Israel was created in 1947, it's packed full of old farts who were actually born there. They think of it as home. Now, you and I can sit comfortably in our own homes and wonder what all the fuss is about, but then we haven't been (ever so politely) moved on from those homes. But, having created the situation, the UN (how did NATO get involved here?) is sort of morally obliged to defend Israel's right to exist.

What's the answer? To be perfectly honest, I don't think there is one.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:17 pm

Poodle--I agree with everything you say, so don't quite get the point of the negative tone that comes thru? Maybe I too have thin skin?==except I don't think myself be wrong or confused is anything except a possible opportunity for me to learn?

So....can you finely hone down to 1 or 2 sentences what point you want to make, because right now, I don't see it. A sovereign Palestine is the same notion it is for any other state. If you have the will and ability to form it, then GO FOR IT. If you don't, then accept your reality and go for your best other option. Same with the Jews....same with Northern Ireland, or Scotland, or the Mexicans across the Sourthern USA. Just for the love of Realpolitik, stop your whining and talking about what used to be 50-100-500-1000 years ago.

"He's dead, Jim!"

MY EDIT to your Edit: yes, that is creeping towards the issue. But.... there is no morality in the formation and holding of land. It has always been and will always be a function of power with those without power talking about morality. The answer is incredibly OBVIOUS: Israel by force will either keep its land or lose it. Same with all the ARABS around it. (Caps to emphasize Palestinians are not the issue.....except for those who pay attention to mewing moralizing (which is only posturing) whining about what outcome they would prefer....having the same consequences as the status quo, just for a different set of people.)
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:23 pm

Thin skin. Yep.

No - no hostility there at all, bobbo. Just a statement. I will, in time, agree with your "stop your whining and talking about what used to be 50-100-500-1000 years ago" comment. Not yet, though, because the world has oh so cleverly managed to put itself into a situation in which there are people who, merely by existing, are at each other's throats.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:32 pm

My thin skin was a joke for EM's (Electronic Mole?==whoever on the France thread...I think) benefit...... or maybe it was just sarcasm for supervitors benefit. It certainly was self deprecating humor for my own benefit. OBVIOUSLY--you gained no benefit from it....which also makes me smile. Little whirlpools of back water.

The world has not "put itself" into this situation. Rather that is the status quo of people in general...........which is why I am generally against immigration of any type or stripe of any people anywhere...above the working nullity of X %.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Poodle » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:57 pm

Now you've really got my attention, bobbo.

"I am generally against immigration of any type or stripe of any people anywhere ..."

OK. Who are you? Where do you live? Where were you born? Who are/were your parents/grandparents? No names mentioned, of course. But I strongly suspect that you're hiding some form of immigration somewhere in your murky history. I certainly am.

And this isn't really about immigration, is it? We're talking Israel which, depending upon how you look at it, was either the solution to a problem which had been pressing for a few centuries or a completely off-the-wall solution for a problem which didn't exist in the first place.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:23 am

Well....thanks Poodle. I see that opinion as so common sense and rational as to be too pedestrian for interest. but you actually raise two issues, immigration and Israel, so I will take them in turn.

Is my own family history relevant? I don't think so, but since you asked, I'd be interested in any "deep seated emotional basis"you can find or even just hypothetical. maybe some bonus personal facts as well that I think do explain my position. I'm USA for 4-5 generations having immigrated from Canada and up there for 4-5 generations, then England for I don't know how long. I'm not proud of it, but my family historically escape the moral condemnation of slavery...although I do have white privilege and have benefited from that circumstance. Personally, I was born in USA but grew up in Germany and Japan. I have traveled all over the world my whole life. My conclusion that actually is often stated and generally applies: people are all the same. The same but different at the same time. The same in our motivations, different in how those motivations are satisfied.

I'm against immigration because today I can't identify any benefit to the receiving nations. Whatever benefit can be identified, I think is greatly outweighed by the burdens.......TO THE GENERAL POPULOUS. "Today" immigration has the effect of keeping labor rates down. Just look at Microsoft: brings in foreign talent rather than have to pay more to find/train citizens. This is repeated all over the place. The immigration of Muslims to non Muslim countries is even more problematic because their religion is at odds or even hostile with non-Muslim religions but also with living in a secular society. All religions are anti-individual providing for submission to a God...Muslims take that basic defect and multiply it times 5. Muslims have blended well in the USA.....so far. The lessen around the world though is wait until they achieve X level of the population....and there is a call for sharia law. I suspect that in accepting USA where Muslims are doing well, this problem may not disappear, but rather only raise the level of X. What would be needed is a new sect of Muslim, "True Islam" if you will that is a religion of peace that rejects the murder and mayhem in standard Islamic religion around the world. Just look.

Israel....like all issues that don't resolve is multiple. I don't think the formation of Israel was a solution for anything other than immediate circumstances MOSTLY provided by the Ottoman Empire supporting Germany in the War...and losing. That and Jews themselves organizing to forcefully take land to form a state: just like everyone else on the map has done. So...my take..is that Israel is not a solution and has nothing to do with problems. Its a Nation, formed and maintained like all the others: by people willing and capable of killing other people to keep it. Just like everyone else. If you can't beat Israels in the course of 4-5 wars, then whine about History and your Humanity. It will gain you sympathy....but no land until you develop the CAPABILITY to take it back.

Its the way of the World. Again: just look.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:23 pm

bobbo's views, starting at 3rd paragraph:

if you let the muslims in, sharia law will entail next, as it happens in all countries with a lot of muslims like Tunisia and can be checked here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicati ... try#Legend
Society will always retreat, like history taught us

countries should be lawless (the concept of international law does not make sense)

the world can't change (because it never changed, slavery and burning people on the fire are just myths)

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:36 pm

"if you let the muslims in, sharia law will entail next," //// thats my concern with the risk of same rising as the % of Muslims increase. I've posted elsewhere that with greater acceptance and integration (success) in America that X hopefully would have to be higher. Your nice linked map notes low impact of Sharia where number of Muslims is low. Very consistent.

"Society will always retreat, like history taught us" /// Not sure what you mean, but most likely I disagree. Thats what the clash in culture clash means.

"countries should be lawless (the concept of international law does not make sense)" /// Silly child. International law is not controlling anywhere. Its totally ignored without repercussions by those who wish and imposed only by those who wish. This flows from the fact that while there is a world court...there is no world police. The Big Boys won't permit that as Int'l Law would be applied against them.

"the world can't change (because it never changed, slavery and burning people on the fire are just myths)" /// Of course the world (ie, the nature of people) can change. Here: pull my finger.

Silly hooman.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:58 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"if you let the muslims in, sharia law will entail next," //// thats my concern with the risk of same rising as the % of Muslims increase. I've posted elsewhere that with greater acceptance and integration (success) in America that X hopefully would have to be higher. Your nice linked map notes low impact of Sharia where number of Muslims is low. Very consistent.

Nope, that's untrue. My nice linked maps show none of that. I even "spelled out" one country with 100% muslim population, Tunisia. Which defeats your premise: there's no relation between "number of muslims" and "application of Sharia". You can confirm that on this other nice linked map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Musl ... lation.svg

As you can see, there's a lot more countries where you can't even smell "Sharia" with very high population of muslims, like the former ex-USSR muslim republics, Mali, Niger, Turkey, etc.

"Society will always retreat, like history taught us" /// Not sure what you mean, but most likely I disagree. Thats what the clash in culture clash means.


That's why it's a wrongful concept. Huntington is wrong.
"countries should be lawless (the concept of international law does not make sense)" /// Silly child. International law is not controlling anywhere. Its totally ignored without repercussions by those who wish and imposed only by those who wish. This flows from the fact that while there is a world court...there is no world police. The Big Boys won't permit that as Int'l Law would be applied against them.

You were arguing that it shouldn't prevail (in the case of Israel). Now you say it's not applied everywhere. Just because it's not yet enforced, should we abandon the concept? Basically, do you agree that we should aim to that or just give up?

Should we have international law, but make a clause, called The Israel Exception (they can be lawless)?

"the world can't change (because it never changed, slavery and burning people on the fire are just myths)" /// Of course the world (ie, the nature of people) can change. Here: pull my finger.

Silly hooman.

But, you had said:

Its the way of the World. Again: just look.

?

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:47 pm

From your first link: " Members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation where sharia plays no role in the judicial system. Muslims are a minority in some OIC nations." //// Not expressly stated, just implied.

Ever wonder how a country can be 100% Muslim?

I didn't argue "shouldn't" but rather "didn't." What does prevail is force of arms.

"Just because it's not yet enforced, should we abandon the concept? Basically, do you agree that we should aim to that or just give up?" /// "not yet enforced.".....ha, ha.....good one. I think the concept is lofty, but I wouldn't masturbate to it. Aim to what? That the USA should submit itself to the World Court and the controlling interest of Third World Countries demanding damages for USA War Crimes, Weapon Sales, Illegal Wars, Torture, Usury in Loans made, Damages for Climate Change....etc. Ummmmm....no, I don't.

Big Guys making the rules, then not following them: the Way of the World. I don't understand your response at all. Israel is not an exception, but rather the general rule. You got something backwards.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:34 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:From your first link: " Members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation where sharia plays no role in the judicial system. Muslims are a minority in some OIC nations." //// Not expressly stated, just implied.

Some does not mean all. It actually means just some. As there are other countries not OIC where muslims are a minority
I showed you one map with the application of sharia law in muslim countries and another with percentage of muslims living on them (I even listed some countries with no sharia and many muslims), which was your argument:

Your nice linked map notes low impact of Sharia where number of Muslims is low. Very consistent.


just admit you were wrong

Ever wonder how a country can be 100% Muslim?

Ha Ha Ha, so now you're going to go literal on me?

I didn't argue "shouldn't" but rather "didn't." What does prevail is force of arms.

"Just because it's not yet enforced, should we abandon the concept? Basically, do you agree that we should aim to that or just give up?" /// "not yet enforced.".....ha, ha.....good one. I think the concept is lofty, but I wouldn't masturbate to it. Aim to what? That the USA should submit itself to the World Court and the controlling interest of Third World Countries demanding damages for USA War Crimes, Weapon Sales, Illegal Wars, Torture, Usury in Loans made, Damages for Climate Change....etc. Ummmmm....no, I don't.

Just to indulge you, I'll consider that thought: you know what could work? The international community to join together and leave the USA in isolation

"You don't want to follow rules, rather be a bully, so no more business with you. What? Are you going to declare war to all of us?"

But I'll admit, we are going to need less The_Pragmatists in positions of power to reach a consensus (not 100%!!)

Big Guys making the rules, then not following them: the Way of the World. I don't understand your response at all. Israel is not an exception, but rather the general rule. You got something backwards.


What I want is to know what you think about it, because you were using "force of arms prevails" for Israel. Hence my original question: Should countries be lawless?

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:30 pm

Denial of copy and paste.

Your linked chart shows from 90 to 100%...not you just literal unless you want to quibble about the range. But did you ever think?...about it?.....100%. Like democratic election returns in the area?

Any country in isolation, moreso the rest of the world uniting: silly fantasy talk.

Force of arms applies to ALL countries. There is no law...only force of arms.

Just Look....and stop being mindlessly embarrassing.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:08 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Denial of copy and paste.

Your linked chart shows from 90 to 100%...not you just literal unless you want to quibble about the range. But did you ever think?...about it?.....100%. Like democratic election returns in the area?

Here you'll see a table with the percent of muslims per country:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

You'll see Tunisia with 99.8%, no Sharia. You'll see others (no Sharia) too at that level, which defeats your premise that "the number of muslims implies the level of sharia". It's nonsense, bobbo

Any country in isolation, moreso the rest of the world uniting: silly fantasy talk.

You didn't like my idea? I think it would work. Why? You think we should continue at this games of power? Because that never went wrong for people?

Force of arms applies to ALL countries. There is no law...only force of arms.

Just Look....and stop being mindlessly embarrassing.

So, you're satisfied with a lawless world for countries. That's what I originally asked, oh bobbo_The_Mindless_Jokester.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:16 pm

Why not countries without laws to its people, bobbo? If the force of arms is the thing, why bother ourselves with legal systems and all of that?

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:23 pm

super===your nitpicking naysaying creates too much drag. spif up your game.

"The Law" as you used it was International Law. Has nothing to do with interstate laws.

I haven't talked at all about what I think or prefer or would want or think works: only the way of the world.

Just Look. A stop behing tedious or Sweetpees will be the only one talking to you. He is back on a few threads. Same as ever.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby supervitor » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:31 pm

you mean, stop being right?

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:50 pm

Don't let the puppet Palestinian Authority collapse!
https://www.rt.com/news/328069-netanyah ... -collapse/

You can't make this kind of stuff up. :lol:
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:30 pm

It's simple. They wont have it gone, cause then they can't pretend there is a seperate authority by and for the palestinians. But they dont want it strong either, so they can steamroll over it whenever necessary.

They seem now to realize they have been a bit too good at the "divide and conquer" game for their own good. No PA, no 2 state solution. And that would eventually mean either full apartheid or a jewish minority Israel.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:52 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:It's simple. They wont have it gone, cause then they can't pretend there is a seperate authority by and for the palestinians. But they dont want it strong either, so they can steamroll over it whenever necessary.

They seem now to realize they have been a bit too good at the "divide and conquer" game for their own good. No PA, no 2 state solution. And that would eventually mean either full apartheid or a jewish minority Israel.

Peace
Dan


Imho you're spot-on, OTB. What the Likudniks are working toward is a two-state solution with a Palestinian state about the size of a football field.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:42 am

If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:13 pm

Tom Palven wrote:Actually, Israel will never give up trying to drive all the Palestinians out of the West Bank. His Likud Party platform says no Palestinian state, and expand Israel to the Jordan River.

TP==all I see from you is criticizing Netanyahu/Israel for "not compromising." I agree with your statement above (from the 2 or 3 rd post you made). GIVEN that is his position, and would be the position of any rational person with the interests of Jews/Israel FOREMOST in his mind, as opposed to Arab/Muslim opinion or any other who could care less if Israel or Jews existed at all or had as their express goal their final extermination .......(takes a breath)..... WHAT THE FRICK WOULD YOU DO?

You know..... actually do? YOUR compromise?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:29 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Actually, Israel will never give up trying to drive all the Palestinians out of the West Bank. His Likud Party platform says no Palestinian state, and expand Israel to the Jordan River.

TP==all I see from you is criticizing Netanyahu/Israel for "not compromising." I agree with your statement above (from the 2 or 3 rd post you made). GIVEN that is his position, and would be the position of any rational person with the interests of Jews/Israel FOREMOST in his mind, as opposed to Arab/Muslim opinion or any other who could care less if Israel or Jews existed at all or had as their express goal their final extermination .......(takes a breath)..... WHAT THE FRICK WOULD YOU DO?

You know..... actually do? YOUR compromise?


I would stop the expansion and the systematic disenfranchisement of the native Palestinians, and apply to the UN for protected status as a World Religious Heritage Site similar to Vatican City or Mecca.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:03 pm

Tom Palven wrote:I would stop the expansion and the systematic disenfranchisement of the native Palestinians, .
And I will guess that Netanyahu would counter that would only kick the can down the road with the unavoidable demographics of high Arab birthrates becoming a direct threat against non-Muslim gubment? ......... or atleast the "risk" of that happening, and said risk not acceptable to Netanyahu. ............. Nor would ANY country leader agree to allowing any other minority within its boundaries to grow and outvote the current majority culture/religion/politcial group. THAT is the way of the world. Netanyahu do NOTHING that every other leader in History has done. Name any exception?


Tom Palven wrote: and apply to the UN for protected status as a World Religious Heritage Site similar to Vatican City or Mecca.
I don't know the ins and outs of that....but sounds like a good idea....... with "ultimate" authority (whatever that might mean) being Israels, all according to the paragraph above.

Can you confirm, is it not still the position "in fact" of the PLO/Palestinian Leadership if not most of the Palisteinian People to "wipe Israel from the map"? And if so......isn't any talk of compromise WITH THAT, totally self destructive and unrealistic? And if you disagree..... is it still not reasonable for Netanyahu to suspect the same.... and hence, no compromise.

I can see bemoaning the situation...but criticizing one side of the equation looks entirely suspect to me.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:06 am

French government said to pressure Likudniks in world's longest-running joke:
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.700329
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:20 pm

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:17 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.


Bibi has said that his Likudniks have always favored a two-state solution, and he has said that they will never accept a two-state solution.

Which is the lie?

This from an Israeli news source, and there's lot more on the web if you look.
http://www.haaretz.com/netanyahu-s-spee ... s-1.386720

Jimmy Carter wrote a book on this subject, Palestine: Peace not Apartheid
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074328 ... 1_1&sr=8-1
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:02 pm

Its pretty obvious that Netanyahu is lying about the two state solution..... or that his conception of it is as you say the size of a football field. THAT is so obvious....... I wonder why you ask? Politics: getting your own way in a sea of opposition.

Ha, ha..... the lie I refer to is yours posting as if Netanyahu "should be" working for the two state solution. Silly. It would be "nice" if the world could accommodate two states, and some day we might. but not now. Realpolitik over the emotional.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:59 am

Tomorrow being Groundhog Day, Netanyahu should come out of his den and state that he favors continuing endless "negotiations" with the unarmed and virtually imprisoned Palestinians.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:10 am

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
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