Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:26 pm

OOB--again, thanks. You waffle on too many key points talking up both sides of the argument. So....if I want to overwhelmingly agree with you, I can. If I want to disagree with you, I can. Its like any objective analysis though, I look for the facts and analysis and try to judge the best position. Your thoughts are too jumbled to do that.

Here is perhaps your key failure of analysis: yes...every group has fractures and if the leaders of the that group took different positions, the outcomes would be different. You have no argument from me.

One of my fav's regarding Nation States: http://lisalouisecooke.com/wp-content/u ... apture.jpg



and while looking for it I feel across another interesting looking map here. I'll have to go back and study it some. I love maps. BTW--I have been short in response because I'd just be repeating what I already posted. If you'd like to pick one or two points to thrash through with repeats and rephrases, I'd be happy and willing to do so.

http://www.timemaps.com/history
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:35 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:OOB--again, thanks. You waffle on too many key points talking up both sides of the argument. So....if I want to overwhelmingly agree with you, I can. If I want to disagree with you, I can. Its like any objective analysis though, I look for the facts and analysis and try to judge the best position. Your thoughts are too jumbled to do that.

Perhaps you noted that one of my key themes is that i reject the whole ballgame approach. So, no, I wont be copying from the pro-palestine playbook either. And if my points seemed jumbled, that may be because they were all in response to your various statements. I wasn't as much building my own position as I was pointing out the problems with yours.

Here is perhaps your key failure of analysis: yes...every group has fractures and if the leaders of the that group took different positions, the outcomes would be different. You have no argument from me.

That's way simplified, but alright. You have then changed your position, because the way you write the palestinians are of one mind and possibly the Israelis as well. My point was to add the crucial nuances.

One of my fav's regarding Nation States: http://lisalouisecooke.com/wp-content/u ... apture.jpg

I like a good map or two myself. But is this supposed to contradict when I said that nation states are a fairly recent invention? Then I must be more clear of the distinctions between a state and a nation state. Let me quote wikipedia again:
wiki wrote:A state is a political and geopolitical entity, while a nation is a cultural and ethnic one.

States have existed since the beginning of time as political entities. But if we take European history, you'll see that the notion that a country also should follow ethnic and cultural boundaries is very recent. The idea caught on in the post-(french)revolutionary Europe and led to unification of Germany and Italy, notably. Up through the ancient and middle ages, European states were basically the lands a regent happened to rule over. Lands changed hands in wars etc frequently, and there weren't really any central authority of the modern kind enforcing anything except taxes for the armies and obedience to the sovereign.

The link again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:50 pm

OOB==I did not know Nation State had additional elements over just a State. It has struck me as redundant each time I used it....I wonder where I got it? Without going to the link, I find it doubtful that any State is uniform in culture and the weasel word "should" is almost an admission that at least some Nation States don't meet the critieria? so...I find such word play valuable when raising or identifying clarifying or important points as opposed to pure rhetoric such as we have here. All my points apply to States as well as Nation States...so making any distinction between the two is too artificial.

With so many raised issues and none of them identified by you as thrash worthy, my habit is to just take the very first issue that arise as a appertif:

"Perhaps you noted that one of my key themes is that i reject the whole ballgame approach. " /// I noticed a few things but since I don't consider anything I posted as a ballgame nor implied as much either unless you think anything that has winners and losers is a ballgame, I reject that characterization as per my preexisting definitions. The formation and maintenance of a Nation State.....is NOT a ballgame. No sport about it at all, and no rules, no umpires. Just raw military force operation of the fabric of geopolitical relationships and interests.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Scott Mayers » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:13 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Scott: the closest example of foreigners going to a new land and killing all the native peoples to make room for themselves is the European colonization of the New World. I can't think of any closer event. Of course, there are other Nation Building examples that aren't as close, but why would I go for a defective comparison??

After all........ this isn't the Monty Hall Challenge now is it.

I think OutofBreath did a good reply to which I agree with. I understand what you are thinking though. There is a comparison to many issues. I had 'gun-control' in mind on this. For instance, those who argue for a right to have guns say that we'd be in a safer world if everyone had one. Yet this is also NOT what they'd desire either as a 'right' for their devout enemies. They see it inevitable that some form of system would become so abusive that they'd need to play 'hero' and save the world from the tyranny of such a possibility.

However, their imposition to demand such rights also makes those who prefer gun-controls in place are then at risk by even the minority of those who favor them (the extremists). It makes them paranoid in return and so it is the extremists who tend to win out regardless of their minority status towards a weaponized world. This is what I see with regards to the politics of nationalisms within Israel and the Arabs in kind. Yet, I see it is Israel here who initiated this. It is the emotionally laden ones who embrace an ethnic form of nationalism who often steal the platforms in most places.

In your comparison to the North American Natives, I see a difference between the U.S. and Canada as we evolve will in time prove that the American ideals will improve since they focus on distinguishing differences between real classifications based on individuals and NOT culture. In Canada, by contrast, we are doing the opposite by embracing a cultural and ethnic-based distinction which acts to classify people based on ethnicity. In time I believe, just as history shows in different times of the past, that when we think in terms of ethnicity to define one's nations, this IS the cause of the problems throughout time. For Israel, they have embraced distinctions upon ethnic lines. And while Muslims too tend to do this, it is likely only due to their economic exclusion. They are more akin to the 'Christian' ideal to be inclusive to outsiders unlike traditional Judaism which often heightens their privileged ethnicity as favored peoples [at least in modern times]. And to add the fact that the State of Israel has such unequivocal powers of economy by contrast to almost any other 'group' per capita, it must take them to be the necessarily BIGGER people to lay down their arms first if any hope could be possible.

AND, we need to stop entrenching rights for things like Nations of Nations and only Nations of individuals, groups classes based on survival needs, and the collective whole. I find it ironic that from my interpretation of the ancient middle East, the original Jew was not an ethnic classification as much as it was the set of rejects forced to wander from many diverse cultural groups originally, just as many of the present Arabs. We need to focus on dismantling the ideals of religious ethnic conservatism everywhere to fix this. And since the ones in a better power position who do this are also the ones creating the drastic distinction of people's real economies, it is they (like the Israelis) and NOT the weak ones who have to take the onus to first put away their guns and tear down their walls.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:18 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: This bald link above reports on Netanyahus statement he will not give up occupied territory as long as the Arab policy is controlled by Muslim fundies. I agree with Netanyahu. He agreed to talk...why are concessions necessary BEFORE the Arabs agree that Israel has a right to exist?
bobbo_the_Pragmatist two weeks ago wrote: (I also fought (sic) for them (Israel) too in the Yom Kippur war) massacre of Palistinians seeking refuge in their land? Lots of {!#%@} going on then.... as in all wars.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=25994&p=483093&hilit=massacre#p483093

Are you going to turn yourself in and set a good example of fair play? :D


Oddly, you know how, in the holocaust sub forum we try to bring war crime criminals to trial, well, it seems to me that you may not be setting a good example of BOTH SIDES trying to compromise SIMULTANEOUSLY to introduce peace and mutual prosperity, by helping slaughter one side. I'm kind of old fashioned like that. :D

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:26 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:OOB==I did not know Nation State had additional elements over just a State. It has struck me as redundant each time I used it....I wonder where I got it? Without going to the link, I find it doubtful that any State is uniform in culture and the weasel word "should" is almost an admission that at least some Nation States don't meet the critieria? so...I find such word play valuable when raising or identifying clarifying or important points as opposed to pure rhetoric such as we have here. All my points apply to States as well as Nation States...so making any distinction between the two is too artificial.

I most vehemently disagree that the distinction is unimportant, and that you treat them synonymously is one of my bigger issues with your position. That Israel is aiming to be a strictly defined ethnic nation-state (majority of jews being in the constitution) is a central problem to the entire conflict. Had Israel been just a state or confederacy, it would have been indifferent to which ethnic group lives where, and absorbed the west bank and gaza including their populations ages ago. Since the "nation" is involved in the definitions, well, we get what we have when it is tried enforced on an area of a non-uniform population.

A further reason I dislike the lack of distinction, is the way it lends itself to self-serving nationalist myth-making history. One can establish a seeming continuity far into the past to legitimize recent events. All nation states do this to some extent, and construct "founding myths" centred on a perceived era of "greatness" at some point in the past. Historians have been complicit to this approach by often framing history like "How X country came to be", rather than focusing on how things were really viewed in that former time, and how recent nations may have appeared rather "accidentally" and not through the long march through history for greatness.


"Perhaps you noted that one of my key themes is that i reject the whole ballgame approach. " /// I noticed a few things but since I don't consider anything I posted as a ballgame nor implied as much either unless you think anything that has winners and losers is a ballgame, I reject that characterization as per my preexisting definitions. The formation and maintenance of a Nation State.....is NOT a ballgame. No sport about it at all, and no rules, no umpires. Just raw military force operation of the fabric of geopolitical relationships and interests.

Here I'm not sure if you're purposefully misunderstanding me.
Let me then restate that my reference to "ballgame" was brought up as an analogy as to how "spectators" on the sidelines tend to view the conflict as "either you root for the palestinians, or you root for the jews!" Kinda like in a sports game. So you're obliged to take either side with warts an all and engage in the conventional tit for tat of grievances. I did not intend ballgame to refer to anything real in the situation, just to the habitual media Reporting and commentary we usually are exposed to on the subject.

My point was that this is a very poor contextual frame of reference for the debate that should be abandoned. Neither the palestinans nor the jews are all good or all bad, and there are legitimate points (as well as illegitimate) on both sides. The situation is complex and far from as simple as you paint it out to be (stab or be stabbed). I see the only way forward as starting to ignore the extremists on both sides, and start building trust with the large majorities on both sides to promote peaceful co-existence. I also know that that there are many organizations doing that sort of thing that should be encouraged more and given more attention.

Other than that I am worried these days that Israel, who used to be a rather secular state, is slipping towards right-wing religious fanaticism. The main problem being that Israeli politics is so fragmented that the more unified religious whackos carry on outsize influence on furthering policies that further conflict. The collapse of the PA is also worrying and may amount to a lost opportunity for Israel to get the 2-state solution they must to avoid blatant apartheid. The atrocious living conditions in the occupied territories, mixed with the military occupation also breeds ever more angry young men with no hope. Always dangerous. So I dont think it will be happy happy anytime soon, but I do have a clear idea what needs to stop or change for a chance of progress to be present.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:56 am

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Scott--I sense you have some good ideas there, and perhaps some bad ones too as you begin to lay them out...but then in each case you go down a path that doesn't make a clear point in my mind. I suppose, it could be just me?

I'll go back thru and try to agree with one and disagree with a second. Maybe focusing on your preference can bring your point home?

1. First Paragraph: I think you are saying that good and valuable rights are denigrated and call in restrictions of said rights by a small extremist minority within that group? I agree Totally AND its not just gun control...but just about every issue you can name. You see the failure to recognize this in OOB's post later on. IE==groups of people are mostly just trying to get by and live their own lives BUT its the extremists within their group that pretty much defines them. I know it sucks, but them's the apples.

2. ".....between real classifications based on individuals and NOT culture...." //// I don't follow what you say after this probably because I have a knee-jerk response to this. My view is that all people/individuals are the same. You can subdivide them into sub groups and the rule of view is still the same even if factually one can determine differences BECAUSE...the similarities far outweigh the differences so as to obviate them for most of what is important in the course of hooman affairs. Fun subject: differences that don't matter. Causes all kinds of stupid notions to flourish.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:38 pm

Hey Matt: "I was just following orders." but I take your caution and will never leave the continental USA. Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:01 pm

OOB===Ha, ha. You say so much that is wrong. Fairly objectively wrong too. I'll just bullet the first few as there are so many. Pick what you think you can defend:

1. "That Israel is aiming to be a strictly defined ethnic nation-state (majority of jews being in the constitution) is a central problem to the entire conflict." //// Educate me. I thought Israel was a multi-ethnic State bringing in immigrants from all around the world (except a recent rejection of those from Ethiopia?) as long as they were of the JEWISH RELIGION. A state formed as a homeland and safe place against recurring pogroms and genocides throughout history for the peoples of the JEWISH RELIGION. Have I got that right or wrong?

2. "Had Israel been just a state or confederacy, it would have been indifferent to which ethnic group lives where, and absorbed the west bank and gaza including their populations ages ago." //// Whaaaaa? From the Founding of Israel in 1947, those Arabs outside the initial Founding of Israel where "Anti-Israel." NO State, Nation State, or any other group invites "anti-group" into their mists. This is crazy talk. Canada and USA has very much in common....more than Israel and the Arabs in the Gaza Strip...and except for brief bouts of unsuccessful invasions to Conquer them...pretty harmonious relationships. There is no talk of one side absorbing the other even though, except for Montreal, there are no negative ethnic, or religious, or cultural inhibitions to such outcome. Its just plain silly to suggest one conquering people would merge with those they ousted when those ousted are mounting wars to return to status quo anti. Probe me wrong: name one instance where such lazy integration has occurred?

Well, there's two main important points of contention that once resolved might help with the others?



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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:07 pm

Tom Palven: from your link: "The only way an exclusive and exclusionist Jewish state could be created was by the forced physical removal of this society, which began in earnest in 1947 by highly trained and well-funded armed groups of European Jews. /// Hmmm....the author evidently doesn't understand Israel is a Nation State, not just a state, accoriding to OOB and his team. The passage introduces my main point in any analysis of State Conflicts throughout time: Land is acquired and held by those willing and able to do so. If you aren't or don't....the other guy gets it. Real simple realpolitik.

Thank you for the supporting info.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:03 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:OOB===Ha, ha. You say so much that is wrong. Fairly objectively wrong too. I'll just bullet the first few as there are so many. Pick what you think you can defend:

If you by "wrong" mean "dont agree with you" then you're probably right.

1. "That Israel is aiming to be a strictly defined ethnic nation-state (majority of jews being in the constitution) is a central problem to the entire conflict." //// Educate me. I thought Israel was a multi-ethnic State bringing in immigrants from all around the world (except a recent rejection of those from Ethiopia?) as long as they were of the JEWISH RELIGION. A state formed as a homeland and safe place against recurring pogroms and genocides throughout history for the peoples of the JEWISH RELIGION. Have I got that right or wrong?

Israel is an etnically based state with the specified intention that one certain religious/cultural groups shall have the majority. So much that they import people of said religious/ethnicity from all over the world. Also note that jews in particular traditionally draw no distinction between their perceived ethnicity and their religion. In fact, it's a centerpiece of identity and religious mythology. So, a very minor correction there, when the gist is true. The state is based for the benefit of one particular ethnic/religious group. That's a source of tension along with continued colonization efforts to expand jew-only territory.

Had the government of Israel/Palestine been neutral and truly multicultural, it is quite possible to imagine many things being different.

2. "Had Israel been just a state or confederacy, it would have been indifferent to which ethnic group lives where, and absorbed the west bank and gaza including their populations ages ago." //// Whaaaaa? From the Founding of Israel in 1947, those Arabs outside the initial Founding of Israel where "Anti-Israel." NO State, Nation State, or any other group invites "anti-group" into their mists. This is crazy talk. Canada and USA has very much in common....more than Israel and the Arabs in the Gaza Strip...and except for brief bouts of unsuccessful invasions to Conquer them...pretty harmonious relationships. There is no talk of one side absorbing the other even though, except for Montreal, there are no negative ethnic, or religious, or cultural inhibitions to such outcome. Its just plain silly to suggest one conquering people would merge with those they ousted when those ousted are mounting wars to return to status quo anti. Probe me wrong: name one instance where such lazy integration has occurred?


Let me see what are your real question here? You give a short rendition of the conflict from the jewish perspective which is in itself very debatable in its interpretations. You continously talk up how every palestinian is so full of hate and, being muslims to boot, are iredeemable untermensch that noone can ever reason with, so that the state of Israel is within it's right to do whatever they want with these people. About right? If so, the hyperbole is so deafening it's no wonder you can't imagine any solutions.

As for your question, it is so hyperboled and loaded with un/half truths I dont know how to begin to answer it. If you are asking of examples where conquering peoples merge with the conquered population, you wont have to look very far or long into history. That's usually what happens over a couple of generations anywhere a conqueror settles. But the question is wrong as this is NOT a simple case of "a conquering people". It is way complicated by that the fractions involved have ALL been present for millennia with various ups and downs regarding the powerpolitical situation beyond their borders, The jews have the upper hand these days, bolstered by immigration and big power support. But they do in no way have exclusive rights to the area nor should they have.

What is your solution? Genocide?

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:08 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Tom Palven: from your link: "The only way an exclusive and exclusionist Jewish state could be created was by the forced physical removal of this society, which began in earnest in 1947 by highly trained and well-funded armed groups of European Jews. /// Hmmm....the author evidently doesn't understand Israel is a Nation State, not just a state, accoriding to OOB and his team. The passage introduces my main point in any analysis of State Conflicts throughout time: Land is acquired and held by those willing and able to do so. If you aren't or don't....the other guy gets it. Real simple realpolitik.

Thank you for the supporting info.

I find it interesting that you managed to read that article and come away with "Thanks for the support to my position"...

For what it's worth, I don't agree with all the stuff in that article either. Although I do think that looking at it as a colonial adventure isn't necessarily that far off. Especially if viewed from the side of the "colonized". However, as a starting point for a solution I dont think it's that promising. At some point you have to declare some events as "water under the bridge" in order to move on.

I again recommend the book "Jerusalem - a biography" by Simon Sebag Montefiore. It has greatly influenced me to my current balanced interpretation of the conflict by highlighting the long historical backgrounds and portraits of Jerusalem living throughtout the centuries.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:54 pm

OOB==By my way of talking, you are waffling around so much, I can't really tell what your position is. Let's test the waters:

Initially you said: ""That Israel is aiming to be a strictly defined ethnic nation-state.."

and I countered: That Isreal is "A state formed as a homeland and safe place against recurring pogroms and genocides throughout history for the peoples of the JEWISH RELIGION."

By my way of thinking, YOU are wrong in saying Israel is defined as an ethnic nation BECAUSE Israel is a State formed for Religious purposes. Are we disagreeing in some kind of rhetorical nullity without either one of us being WRONG? If so....then we disagree about what being Right or Wrong about factual issues means. If not...which one of us is wrong, and why?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:59 pm

Jews are by their own religious rules effectively an ethnicity. We're either way talking about the "nation" component of culture. So I dont see the big issue, frankly. The point of preferential treatment of specified in-group remains.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:09 pm

OOB==that is a total dodge. Answer the question directly: is one of us right or wrong. If so who and why.

I would provide dictionary definitions of ethnicity and of religion....but you know them. thats why you DODGE.

We can't have a dialectic if we don't connect.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:18 pm

I'm at a loss why that one word should be the focus of the argument.
Fine, I agree it's based on religion. But that doesn't change anything about my point. My point is that state nationalism (through ethnicity, religion, culture or whatever) is a disaster for multicultural areas (Like Israel/Palestine), as it excludes large swathes of the population to favour others.

The preferential treatment is my point, and I dont see how harping on a single word that changes nothing of the intended content should be so important. Maybe you'll enlighten me now.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:24 pm

How you treated that one word is one door way into how your mind works: sloppy and waffling.

Yes....Nations are disastrous to the interests of the majority of people trapped within in. Sadly, its how hoomans organize themselves nonetheless. Because if you don't accept the oppression of your leaders, you are enslaved or murdered by the oppression of your enemies.

Just look at that History Chart. Its all right there: Just Look.

Ain't that the shits?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:31 pm

Look, the constant derogatories are wearing thin, and you dont seem that interested in the subject apart from scoring side points while ignoring the points i really try to make.

You're a cynic who hates muslims, I get it. I will not engage you further on this subject.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:43 pm

I don't hate Muslims. I think all people are the same. Indeed, it is CULTURE that divides people. Divides them into camps willing to war on one another. Personally, the last war I would have volunteered for was WW2. All the other actions have been folly and the failure of diplomacy in support of Empire.

The points you are trying to make are so confused and poorly expressed as to be difficult to assess. confusing ethnicity with religion when that is the driving issue all across the Middle East is an issue that you should have recognized without it having to be addressed three times before you saw it.

Constant derogatories. Yes, I know. You asked to be enlightened.

You should be doing better: be direct, be honest==>engage and grow.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:08 pm

Will Netanyahu compromise is one quest, and "Is he sane" is another one to some:

http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2015 ... -and-bibi/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:51 pm

From the link: "Holocaust survivors were shocked, because Netanyahu was really absolving Hitler, and the Germans in general, of the main blame for the horrendous crime." /// I took the statement as trying to characterize the Mufti, and by extension, current leaders if not all the peoples of Palestine (sic), as as bad or worse than Hitler. Hitler is dead, and not that relevant any more. What is relevant: those forces in the world today that would act in the same way Hitler did....like too many Arabs surrounding and in Israel today.

Live under this threat for 50 years, and you might go a bit nuts from time to time too.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:46 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Live under this threat for 50 years, and you might go a bit nuts from time to time too.
Iran used holocaust denial as an attempt to introduce unrest in the USA, thorough conferences in the 90's. It totally back fired. Netanyahu tried to use the holocaust to attack Muslims. It totally backfired.

It's simply amateur hour. in middle eastern politics. However Bibi should have known that he was going to get caught and that the damage he did was simply lowering Israel's credibility to that of Iran's.

At 4.5 billion support a year, there is simply an approaching "tipping point" when the USA will no longer veto UN resolutions and allow UN troops to enter Palestine. The tipping point will not be the cost for the USA but rather that the capital military infrastructure maintained by Israel will become unsustainable and damage Israel's long term economy. The whole point is for the USA to promote Israel as a democratic alternative. If Israel's economy collapses, while surrounding Arab GDP's improve, then that defeats the entire USA's purpose.

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:37 am

Matt: i agree with the "tenor" of what you say but it really doesn't make much sense. Somehow 4.5 Billion support a year (is that only directly to Israel or does than include the additional billions given to surrounding Arab states not to war on Israel?) is a tipping point, but the next sentence says directly its NOT that but rather Israels "capital military infrastructure" (sic?) will become unsusatainable. How can THAT be true when it is artificially supported by the USA? Did you leave out a "not" somewhere...or a whole phrase?

You know what is most damaging to Israel's long term economy?===Yep, being overrun by Arabs. Genocide really wrecks an economy.

Has the UN changed its MO? So far, its only placed troops in "trouble spots" when both sides are not fighting each other. Whenever the sides start fighting each other again, the UN pulls out. "Peace Keeping Troops" not Peace establishing troops.

The purpose of Israel has always been, and will always be as a military balance against the foes of the USA---Russia, Iran, and our oil suppliers the various Dictators of Arabs states ex Axis powers all.

Collapsing Israel and surrounding Arabs improving....That would have happened decades ago....hence the 4.5 Billion. You think that is not going to increase what with Russia building up its military in .....IN.... Syria?

What your point again Matt?
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:30 am

I'd say the problem for Israels relation with the US is basically about these 2 developments:
1. The US is ever less dependent on middle east oil, reducing the direct need for meddling in the area.
2. American jews are becoming more divided on the issue of support for Israel, reducing the lobby's power and candidate's pandering to secure that demographic.

Developments that would lead me to believe that the Israeli government should secure a peace deal now while they have the front seat. Sadly they dont seem interested.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:57 am

OOB--true or not: the Palestinian Leadership changing over the years as it has, has never forsworn their pledge to have Israel removed as a state entity. They give lip service to the Two State Solution but never giving up on the desire for a return to 1967 borders and the "Right of Return" for all Palestinians reveals their barely hidden long term agenda.

Its really a matter of physics: two peoples cannot occupy the same space. Its never been done in history except for one or both sides to rest and rearm.

After all the niceties are expressed, when it comes down to you or them....most people choose themselves.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:19 am

OutOfBreath wrote:I'd say the problem for Israels relation with the US is basically about these 2 developments:
1. The US is ever less dependent on middle east oil, reducing the direct need for meddling in the area.
2. American jews are becoming more divided on the issue of support for Israel, reducing the lobby's power and candidate's pandering to secure that demographic.

Developments that would lead me to believe that the Israeli government should secure a peace deal now while they have the front seat. Sadly they dont seem interested.

Peace
Dan

Re 1: For some stupid reasons that don't balance for me the USA has spent its time, money, military and resources on keeping the Middle East Oil Flowing. It has more to do with keeping the world trading system (Japan, Korea...etc) lubricated as much as our own need for car gas. To that end, we still need ME Oil as we are not independent. More than "Countries" I think this all goes to the benefit of Large International Corporations of all the kinds that there are.

Re 2: Votes always matter but the USA support for Israel is more as a counter to Russia, Iran, etc than as an internal special interest voting block.

What you say as some validity, its just swamped by others more relevant and operative.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:41 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Its really a matter of physics: two peoples cannot occupy the same space. Its never been done in history except for one or both sides to rest and rearm..

I really dont want to get into the whole deal, but I must just state to this: They ARE both occupying the area in question, the groups have done so for milennia, and everywhere in the world there are different groups living in close proximity and among eachother. Often peacefully, sometimes not.

You may have your opinion in this specific case, but the blanket statement is patently wrong.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:15 pm

OOB==we don't "mesh" well do we? The peoples who live harmoniously (enough) together are not existential opponents. You keep dropping that DETERMINATIVE FACT out of your evaluation.

As always: PROVE ME WRONG: Name one example of a country with a large minority of citizens of different ethnic, religious, language, and cultural values who are dedicated to the destruction of the majority and ruling people where those barely in control are additionally surrounded by other States with the same interests of that minority of citizens, and the groups "get along" with one another as you suggest is to be expected? (Pardons for the prolixity--I'll rephrase if not clear...I can barely make sense of it)

Late Edit, because I've been thinking about it from a few days ago: I think "our" major disconnect is quite basic. I see the I/P conflict/challenge as somewhat unique in calling up the survival of the State of Israel. My take is that you see the situation as more routine and mundane? Thats my rephrasing of what I actually thought which is that you overly focus if not exclusively focus on what you see as a hazy similarity of comparisons which totally ignores the differences. You are "out of balance" in not seeing the countervailing forces.

I can always be wrong. Prove it....and you make me a better person....worth any insult that comes along with it.

Know what I mean?.....and I think you do.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:23 pm

I know you are impervious to nuance and have made up your mind how to frame this one. You may be right that I dont see this conflict as uniqe as you do nor do I support at least half of the premises you throw out.

I have no wish to try to make you see what I mean when you show no willingness or inclinations to discuss anything. "Questions" you throw at me are just paragraph-sized rants loaded with like 10 different assumptions (most of which i have an issue with) thus only having one predefined "answer" that you will accept, which is your position.

Had I not been a busy father with 2 young children and a demanding job these days with almost no time to post stuff I might have bothered walking you through the steps of how I think about it. Now, I cant be bothered except reining in some of the worst blanket statements and special pleadings you throw out.

Hakuna matata.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:57 pm

OOB....you surprise me. I didn't realize you were such a special snowflake.

Edit: Deeper response: why don't you deal with the issues raised rather than posting your first emotional response? Everything you say is rather "special" or self-reverential....or ......WHINY.

Adults need to be better role models for their kiddies.

As I constantly say: Prove me wrong. Can't be more open than that. Last time you got pissed right after somehow admitting you were wrong.

I post because I very much enjoy being shown how and when I am wrong. Evidently..... we are opposite types.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:32 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:I know you are impervious to nuance and have made up your mind how to frame this one. You may be right that I dont see this conflict as uniqe as you do nor do I support at least half of the premises you throw out.

I have no wish to try to make you see what I mean when you show no willingness or inclinations to discuss anything. "Questions" you throw at me are just paragraph-sized rants loaded with like 10 different assumptions (most of which i have an issue with) thus only having one predefined "answer" that you will accept, which is your position.

Had I not been a busy father with 2 young children and a demanding job these days with almost no time to post stuff I might have bothered walking you through the steps of how I think about it. Now, I cant be bothered except reining in some of the worst blanket statements and special pleadings you throw out.

Hakuna matata.

Peace
Dan


Didn't know you are such a youngster.

You have the wisdom of an old geezer.

Or maybe it's your portrait! :D
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:50 pm

TP==well THAT can certainly be taken either way.

Child or Wise.

All I asked for was to be proven wrong: If the I/P situation is not unique....should be easy to list 1-2-3 other gubments facing the same challenge. Instead, all we get is the whine that those with a different point of view: "lack nuance."

Ha, ha..............nuance is where I dwell.

.....................................................................come on in, the waters fine. Not heated by mere utterance.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Thanks Tom, I take it as a compliment. :)

OK Bobbo, I'll throw you a tiny bone. The most fitting analogy is really decolonialization. Those processes went quite differently in the various places it happened with widely different results depending on how entrenched the colonizing people were. In places where the local colonial leadership eventually sought an accord, like in S Africa, the transition went rather well, despite centuries of brutal oppression and great cultural differences. Where the colonists dug in, like Algeria, it turned brutal, bloody and prolonged with the end result of most of the colonial class heading to france.

You get the lesson I'm alluding to here, I'm sure.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:18 pm

OOB---so, your analogous example to the I/P conflict is Algeria....................hmmm............................

.....................................thinking....................................................

.................................................................................um.................................

In Algeria who wanted a two state solution and who was going to be one of the states, and who was going to be the other one?

Dang!!! You might be right on that nuance thing......cause I don't see any application at all. No doubt....I have the French Occupation and locals revolt all wrong. The French left....right?

Nuance me Baby>>>>>>>go!
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:16 pm

Hoomans have always and will always fight over land:



This is migingo island lake victoria of dispute between Kenya and Uganda regarding the fishing rights off shore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migingo_Island

First heard of this place as a promo for an upcoming travelogue on the place on Russian Tv. They claim its the worlds most densley inhabited island. A title claimed by a few dozen islands but the history of the place is kinda interesting at the link above. Poor people just trying to eat fish...not like China building islands out of the ocean to take the oil underneath.

LAND: you actually can make it....but its easier to just take it.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby OutOfBreath » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:18 pm

The situation of an immigrant community suppressing the indigenous people as what's analogous, the point being that even in that framework very different results can happen depending on how it's handled. In regards to your determinism.

See, you're not even trying, which is why I won't bother. When it means painfully spell out things you can feign ignorance to or misinterpret anyway, making any debate feel like this :banghead:

Signing off. I must make better use of my time predicting the local labour market for next year. So no time for end/rewardless nitpickery on this subject.

Peace
Dan
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:24 pm

OOB---so not anything AT ALL like the I/P conflict.

............and speaking of nuance...............once again............all you see is the similarities TOTALLY IGNORING all the differences. We would have something to discuss if the French were staying there.........OR........if the Israeli's were colonizing, or going to leave, which they ARE NOT, or is the definition/meaning of this word too confounding for you? Words. I know....why argue??? Just agree with you.

"I got your nuance....right here!" Black and White are just the same because they are both colors. No difference at all.

DIFFERENCES......matter.
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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:17 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The purpose of Israel has always been, and will always be as a military balance against the foes of the USA---Russia, Iran, and our oil suppliers the various Dictators of Arabs states ex Axis powers all.
You have to be joking. What could Israel do to stop Russia? Why would Russia even give a rat's arse about Israel? Israel is now full of Russians.

When was the last time you were there? Approximately 20% of Israel's population is now Russians who came in the 80's. Israel's loyalty to the USA is simply to accept money. Israel will jump to join who ever pays them. This all came apparent in the 90's. Israel applied to join the Commonwealth ( UK. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and 53 other countries) as it is an ex-British colony, when it thought USA financial support would be withdrawn. ( I bet you didn't know that). :D

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Re: Netanyahu Says He Will Compromise

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:27 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Adults need to be better role models for their kiddies.
Bobbo. You have claimed to be a captain in the USAF in 1973 and simultaneously assisted Israel in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in the Yom Kippur War. (quotes on demand)

If I was a 10 year old Palestinian refugee, watching you in your USAF officer's uniform, killing my family around me, that really doesn't indicate you are exampling a good role model, does it? What it does, is make that child want to kill American officers, for the next thirty years.

Some of us here, don't think your "views" are going to bring peace anywhere and that Jewish-American people like yourself, with emotional religious views, are in fact, part of the problem and need to be removed from any input.


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