"Human Trafficking"

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Matthew Ellard
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu May 04, 2017 12:06 am

Tom Palven wrote:The CIA disseminates disinformation and overthrows democratically-elected parliaments. Yes or no?

What the {!#%@} is wrong with you? You posted a mixed list of military and non military, foreign and domestic, intelligence services, some that work in signals intelligence, some which use human intelligence and claimed they were all the same. I had to point out to you that the CIA (civilian, non-military concerned with economic & political foreign intelligence) was different to these other agencies. Two posts before I showed you how the UK Home Office could use a "D-Notice" to hold back news stories (disinformation). I already know what these agencies and services do and how they work. You don't.

You then claimed factual error after factual error, saying the CIA was the most murderous, (complete crap) most funded (complete crap) and so on. I explained to you how your were wrong with evidence. You ignored that.


Tom Palven wrote:You may define these activities as "non military" foreign surveillance, and you may want to redefine the Constitutional meaning of "due process."
Maybe you should prepare a court action against the CIA then and set out how foreign entities come under USA domestic due process.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Thu May 04, 2017 9:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The CIA disseminates disinformation and overthrows democratically-elected parliaments. Yes or no?

What the {!#%@} is wrong with you? ... I already know what these agencies and services do and how they work. You don't.


Over my long life I have had several friends and family members who worked for various intelligence services and still have a couple that do now.

You didn't answer my question. Yes or no?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri May 05, 2017 12:03 am

Tom Palven wrote: You didn't answer my question. Yes or no?
No. The decision to interfere with other government is made by another steering committee and agency, not the CIA.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Fri May 05, 2017 12:07 am

Tom Palven wrote:Over my long life I have had several friends and family members who worked for various intelligence services and still have a couple that do now.
Well they must be the cleaners if they think the CIA has a bigger budget than the NSA. I note you also failed to address my direct points to your ridiculous claim the CIA is the most murderous agency. ....and the Pakistani ISI?

You made a bull-shit claim on a skeptic forum. You will not get anyone's attention here is you make up crap stories.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Fri May 05, 2017 7:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Over my long life I have had several friends and family members who worked for various intelligence services and still have a couple that do now.
Well they must be the cleaners if they think the CIA has a bigger budget than the NSA. I note you also failed to address my direct points to your ridiculous claim the CIA is the most murderous agency. ....and the Pakistani ISI?

You made a bull-shit claim on a skeptic forum. You will not get anyone's attention here is you make up crap stories.



I'll stand by what I said including "most murderous agency" and "without due process."

For example, the CIA droned 40-year old noncombatant US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki without due process, who was supposedly a top al-Qaeda operative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Two weeks later they droned his US-born 16-year old son.

In their efforts to kill any emerging leader in the Mid-East opposed to the American Inquisition it may not be long before the top masterminds that the CIA is droning are twelve-year olds.

Does the CIA overthrow democratically-elected parliaments and disseminate disinformation? YES or NO?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Fri May 05, 2017 8:07 am

Yawn.

Tom Palven
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Fri May 05, 2017 8:36 am

TJrandom wrote:Yawn.


Wake up.

Murder by drone:
https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/art ... -distance/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby TJrandom » Fri May 05, 2017 9:50 am

Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Yawn.


Wake up.

Murder by drone:
https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/art ... -distance/


You sure it was murder Tom? An illegal taking of life? By a drone no less? Are you worried a drone will get you?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat May 06, 2017 12:39 am

Tom Palven wrote:I'll stand by what I said including "most murderous agency" and "without due process."

In other words you don't have a clue who the Pakistani ISI is or any other country's various agencies. :D

Do you think, the North Korean Internal State Security Agency is running holiday camps ( concentration camps) to re educate Koreans about how evil the CIA is, using the Tom Palven book of investigative research into bad international agencies? :lol:

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat May 06, 2017 5:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I'll stand by what I said including "most murderous agency" and "without due process."

In other words you don't have a clue who the Pakistani ISI is or any other country's various agencies. :D

Do you think, the North Korean Internal State Security Agency is running holiday camps ( concentration camps) to re educate Koreans about how evil the CIA is, using the Tom Palven book of investigative research into bad international agencies? :lol:


And you still refuse to answer my question, has the CIA overthrown governments and disseminated disinformation to a larger extent than any other secret police in the world?

Yes or no? :roll:

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.” – Albert Einstein

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/05/05/saud ... rms-sales/
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat May 06, 2017 7:06 am

Tom Palven wrote: Yes or no?
Learn to read Tom. I clearly answered this earlier when I said the controlling steering committee for the CIA makes these decisions which the CIA merely implement.
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=27813&start=120#p574371

I see that you don't answer my direct questions. Which agency is more murderous? The CIA or ISI? Which agency has the bigger budget? The CIA or NSA?

If you want people to read your posts don't make up crap, post false facts and not bother to read other people's posts.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sat May 06, 2017 11:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote: Yes or no?
Learn to read Tom. I clearly answered this earlier when I said the controlling steering committee for the CIA makes these decisions which the CIA merely implement.
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=27813&start=120#p574371

I see that you don't answer my direct questions. Which agency is more murderous? The CIA or ISI? Which agency has the bigger budget? The CIA or NSA?

If you want people to read your posts don't make up crap, post false facts and not bother to read other people's posts.


I admit that haven't had any friends or family that worked for ISI that I know of, and that you are clearly more knowledgeable about them than I.

Wikipedia, last sentence, says of the ISI that "It was ranked as the top intelligence agency in the world in 2011 by the International Business Times."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Ser ... telligence

Without my doing more research, could you tell me if they mean it is "top" because it is the largest in the world, the most murderous per employee, produces the most propaganda believed by people, is the most murderous per dollar spent including its "black budget" if it has one, or that it beats out the CIA due to other factors?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun May 07, 2017 1:53 am

Tom Palven wrote:I admit that haven't had any friends or family that worked for ISI that I know of, and that you are clearly more knowledgeable about them than I.


So you admit you have done no research into any other agencies, and simply pulled your claim out your arse that the CIA was the most murderous.

However I am astonished that you have never heard of the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence Agency. Have
you ever heard of a bloke called Osama Bin Laden? (probably not) Now who do you think gave him safety in a compound next to a Pakistani military base? Why do you think the ISI did this?

What does your research reveal to you about the ISI in Afghanistan? Have you ever heard of the Taliban (probably not)
So why do you think the ISI funded and supplied the Taliban? (Hint heroin)

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Sun May 07, 2017 2:33 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:I admit that haven't had any friends or family that worked for ISI that I know of, and that you are clearly more knowledgeable about them than I.


[color=#000080]So you admit you have done no research into any other agencies, and simply pulled your claim out your arse that the CIA was the most murderous.


I've admitted that I'm not knowledgeable about ISI, but have stated that I'm fairly familiar with US intelligence agencies and some of their employees. After all, I was born and raised in and live in North America.

And, it surely seems to me that among secret police that, by the numbers, the CIA is the most murderous by far as evidenced by this link and other sources:
https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/art ... -distance/

As I showed you, Wikipedia cited a source saying that your ISI is the world's "top" intelligence agency.

What numbers do you have on this? Any links? Who is pulling what out of where?

And, btw, does the CIA, whether acting under the auspices of your "steering committee," deep state, or whatever, overthrow democratically-elected parliaments and disseminate disinformation? Yes or no?

It's interesting that it seems impossible for you to give a simple answer to a simple question.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 08, 2017 12:40 am

Tom Palven wrote:I've admitted that I'm not knowledgeable about ISI,
How lovely for you. You say the CIA is the most murderous agency in the world without any knowledge of any other agency in the world.

Have you ever heard of a bloke called Osama Bin Laden? (probably not). Who do you think hid him in a compound in Pakistan next the the local ISI military base? Have a guess? Have you ever heard of the Taliban? (probably not). Who supplied weapons to and bought Afghan's heroin from the Taliban? Have a guess? That's only 91,000 dead people Tom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_ ... _terrorism
http://www.bbc.com/news/10302946
Pakistani intelligence gives funding, training and sanctuary to the Afghan Taliban on a scale much larger than previously thought, a report says. Taliban field commanders interviewed for the report suggested that ISI intelligence agents even attend Taliban supreme council meetings.


Tom Palven wrote:And, it surely seems to me that among secret police that, by the numbers,
What comparison numbers? Show me! The Burmese domestic services is currently murdering entire villages of Muslims on the Bengal border. What villages have the CIA wiped out this week? Aung San Suu Kyi has been degraded from a Nobel peace prize winner to a potential genocide war criminal in the last year. Didn't you know?
Taj Mahal Hotel.jpg
Here is the Taj Mahal Hotel in India after the ISI sent its suicide bombers to kill as many people as possible.
"Police reports confirm that nine “suspected attackers” have been arrested and three of the attackers have, according to unconfirmed police sources, confessed to belonging to Lashkar-e-Taiba [Lashkar-e-Tayyiba], a Pakistani Kasmiri separatist organization, covertly supported by Pakistani military intelligence (ISI)."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/india-s-9- ... acks/11217
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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon May 08, 2017 5:05 am

So let us review your claim again......

Tom Palven wrote:the fact that the CIA is now by far the biggest
Not even close. Try the NSA or GRU,
Tom Palven wrote: baddest,
Not even close. Try the ISI.
Tom Palven wrote: most heavily funded,
Not even close. Try the NSA.
Tom Palven wrote:murderous,
Not even close. Try the ISI
Tom Palven wrote: in the world


Next time do some basic research. If we were to go back thirty years I would probably write the KGB for all categories.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Mon May 08, 2017 9:13 am

Matt,

Does the CIA, whether acting under the auspices of a "steering committee," deep state, or whatever, overthrow democratically-elected parliaments, disseminate disinformation, and kill all emerging leaders in the Mid-East who aren't on the CIA payroll with drone-fired rockets? Yes or no?

Why is it that you digress, filibuster, and refuse to answer a simple question?

(And btw, Wikipedia states that "The Washington Post reported that in fiscal year 2010 the CIA had the largest budget of all intelligence community agencies, exceeding previous estimates." Perhaps your have more current statistics including the black budget?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_I ... nce_Agency
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 09, 2017 12:22 am

Tom Palven wrote:Matt,
Nope. You are a waste of space. You made a false claim about the CIA being the most funded, murderous, largest, baddest and so on....without out any knowledge about any other intelligence agency on the planet. I informed you of your ignorance and you haven't acknowledged that you were 100% wrong.

And for the record, the last government overthrown was the Indonesian government, by the Australian Secret Intelligence Service to create East Timor. The new friendly government then invited in the Australian army. We just don't advertise our "work" in newspapers.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue May 09, 2017 1:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Matt,
Nope. You are a waste of space. You made a false claim about the CIA being the most funded, murderous, largest, baddest and so on....without out any knowledge about any other intelligence agency on the planet. I informed you of your ignorance and you haven't acknowledged that you were 100% wrong.

And for the record, the last government overthrown was the Indonesian government, by the Australian Secret Intelligence Service to create East Timor. The new friendly government then invited in the Australian army. We just don't advertise our "work" in newspapers.


Why is it that you digress, filibuster, attack, and insist that the CIA is a Mom and Pop operation as pure as the wind-driven snow when I have provided credible links explaining that it's record is the extreme opposite?

Why, pray tell?

An enquiring and skeptical mind wants to know.
Last edited by Tom Palven on Tue May 09, 2017 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 09, 2017 1:20 am

Tom Palven wrote:Why is it that you digress, filibuster, attack, and insist that the CIA is a Mom and Pop operation as pure as the wind-driven snow
Where did I say that. Quote me.

Why did you lie and say the CIA is the most funded, murderous, baddest, largest and so on?

Are you secretly a Trump fan? ....because you love to post fake stories :lol:

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue May 09, 2017 1:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Why is it that you digress, filibuster, attack, and insist that the CIA is a Mom and Pop operation as pure as the wind-driven snow
Where did I say that. Quote me.

Why did you lie and say the CIA is the most funded, murderous, baddest, largest and so on?

Are you secretly a Trump fan? ....because you love to post fake stories :lol:


Lie? I provided a Wikipedia link that the CIA is the most funded, while you've provided no links to the CIA and NSA budgets, much less the pissant ISI.

Baddest and most murderous are judgement calls, but it's my judgement that the CIA is an example of American exceptionalism in both those categories, and I've provided evidence to back that up while you've provided nothing but ad hominem nonsense and a smiley.

Since you are intelligent and knowledgeable, my question is "Why?"
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 09, 2017 2:08 am

Tom Palven wrote: Lie? I provided a link that the CIA is the most funded, while you've provided no links to the CIA and NSA budgets, much less the pissant ISI.


Step 1 : I never said the ISI had the biggest budget. I said it was the most murderous. You didn't know the ISI even existed until I told you two days ago.

Step 2 : The NSA budget ( including satellites) is around 21 billion. The CIA's budget is around 15 billion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... ck-budget/

Tom Palven wrote:Baddest and most murderous are judgement calls
Compare and contrast for me the ISI's murderous activities in Afghanistan, India, Taliban etc, with the CIA.

Do you now withdrawal your invented claim the CIA is the most murderous and baddest agency in the world?

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue May 09, 2017 3:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Compare and contrast for me the ISI's murderous activities in Afghanistan, India, Taliban etc, with the CIA.
Do you now withdrawal your invented claim the CIA is the most murderous and baddest agency in the world?


Hell no. Your ISI is a bunch of Boy Scouts compared to the CIA.

But, by the way. You still seem pretty knowledgeable despite your fascination with the ISI.

Do you know whether the CIA overthrows democratically-elected governments, disseminates disinformation, and drones every emerging leader not on its payroll in the Mid-East?
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 09, 2017 5:09 am

Tom Palven wrote: Hell no. Your ISI is a bunch of Boy Scouts compared to the CIA.
That's great Tom. You didn't know the ISI existed two days ago, You don't know anything about them and yet you are making grand statements about them.

You are also meant to be be quoting me saying the CIA is pure as driven snow.......where is that quote?

Donald Trump would be proud of your work. Why bother with facts when you can make stuff up?


As for my fascination with the ISI....well that's because the CIA used them to do their work in Afghanistan, against the Soviets and then the ISI turned against the CIA supporting the Taliban, you completely ignorant idiot.

"The relationship between the CIA and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency has been at the core of Washington and Islamabad’s alliance for over a decade now — and sometimes the source of the mutual misery. After 9/11, both intelligence agencies collaborated closely to capture scores of al-Qaeda suspects. But over the past two years, as suspicions have grown, the two sides have become near adversaries."
http://world.time.com/2012/08/07/the-ci ... get-along/

Pakistan's ISI funded deadly attack on CIA camp in Afghanistan: US National Security Archive
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 819428.cms

It was through General Zia and the Inter Service Intelligence (ISI) that the CIA were to work their covert operations in Afghanistan.
http://www.nemeton.com/static/nemeton/h ... /art1.html

You are a waste of space.

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue May 09, 2017 5:17 am

Tom Palven wrote: Do you know whether the CIA overthrows democratically-elected governments, .....
The CIA is claimed to have overthrown the Australian Socialist Whitlam Labor government. (I'm a party member) There's a whole {!#%@} movie about it. It's simply not true.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dependence

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Tom Palven » Tue May 09, 2017 6:10 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:The CIA is claimed to have overthrown the Australian Socialist Whitlam Labor government. (I'm a party member) There's a whole {!#%@} movie about it. It's simply not true.


Do you know if the CIA has a large black budget, and whether it tries to drone every emerging political leader in the Mid-East who is not on its payroll?
https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/art ... -distance/

Since we seem to have pretty much exhausted this subject, I'll defer to your expertise and allow you the last word.
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: "Human Trafficking"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed May 10, 2017 12:22 am

Tom Palven wrote: Since we seem to have pretty much exhausted this subject, I'll defer to your expertise and allow you the last word.


Firstly, it does not matter if you belong to the political left, middle or right. There is still a need for a good range of intelligence services in any political circumstance. The old Soviet KGB and current Russian SVR still has a statue of the Tsar's head of his intelligence service, Felix Dzerzhinsky, outside their headquarters. Felix was a master.

Secondly, you cannot compare agencies. If we restrict ourselves to just foreign civil, political & economic intelligence services (CIA, SIS, SVR, BND, Mossad, CSIS, ASIS, NZSIS etc) they all have unique characteristics. Small countries like Canada, Australia and Israel can't afford massive eavesdropping services and rely more on human intelligence on the ground. The USA has endless analysts, statisticians and mid management supported by expensive signals intelligence.

Thirdly, the larger countries with the largest services (CIA, DIO, SVR, FSB, SIS, BND) simply suffer more corruption, penetration, errors and so on,statistically as they simply have more employees, contractors and agent sources. On one hand, the the head of anti soviet divisions in the CIA and FBI were both paid Russian spies. ( Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen). On the other hand many KGB officers stole money or state assets when Communism fell. (The Russian SVR still hunts down oligarchs and ex-KGB officers without mercy)

Fourthly, the very nature of intelligence work mean mixing up your boys & girls with really really bad people. The lines are fuzzy. The resulting stories mix good people and bad people up. The Air America (CIA) purchasing of heroin from pro Saigon government growers made sense at the time, until the heroin was dumped in Australia....so Australia pulled out of the Vietnam war early, which was a disaster for the US. Colin Powell admitted the CIA didn't have one human intelligence officer in Iraq while simultaneously the Australians were bribing Saddam's circle of friends $300,000,000 to buy Australian wheat and provide other information, knowing no wheat would ever change hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWB_oil-for-wheat_scandal

Finally, some agencies pretend they are the world's best when they are hopeless (Mossad), while other are the world's best but you never hear about them (BND & SVR).

The aim is not to make fun of the CIA as a whole but rather determine specific events where things have gone wrong and fix those and prosecute individuals if they broke the established rules and working guidelines.

Recently, we have seen the Russian SVR influence Trump, the American President, to send out tweets saying he doesn't trust the CIA as a whole. That's what the Russians are trained to do....make trouble & create doubt . They did the same to the UK in the 60s and 70s. The best way to defeat the Russians is to stick to the facts and not assist them by making up more evil stories about the CIA.
:D


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