The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

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The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Jeff D » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:21 am

Biblical scholar R. Joseph Hoffmann has a blog, which I do not read regularly at all. I don't even recall from month to month that Hoffmann has a blog, unless someone else links to an entry.

Here is the entry from November 5th, in which Hoffmann muses, in a difficult-to-summarize way, about what tea leaves there are to be read in the bottom of the cup that was Election Day 2010, and (my interpretation) the danger in assuming that some coherent, well-informed "voice of the people" has spoken in the results of any particular American election. I'm not saying that I agree with Hoffmann, but his jaded perspective is presented in an interesting package, complete with references to Aristotle and to the succession of "bad kings" in the Old Testament.

The assumption on almost everyone’s part is that a (virtual) vote of no confidence conveys a kind of popular wisdom because it is an expression of the collective will of the people and in this Man Up Democracy, vox populi vox dei, People Rule. A little attention to the full quotation from Alcuin to Charlemagne in the eighth century yields a slightly different flavour, however: “Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, Vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit.” : “And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the crowd is always very close to madness.” Leave it to an ingenious country like America to prove Alcuin spot on.

. . . .

The recent election has proved two things to me. First, we can never count on the American people to do the right thing, whether they choose kings over republics or republics over kings. The political history of the world, as every historian knows and every political “analyst” conveniently forgets at election time, is a history of disappointment, punctuated by remorse, followed by revolutions and wars.

That is the religious and political history of Europe. It is also the history of America in its revolution, its Civil War, and its most recent political spasm, the triumph of the Tea Party para-revolutionaries. When the frighteningly ignorant and undereducated Christian fundamentalist, Sharron Angle of Nevada, announced that Americans were ready for “Second Amendment remedies” to the current “regime” she was using language (probably scripted) in a deliberately provocative way. Alas, however, she may have been right. But I did not hear a single “analyst” who had the historical presence of mind to suggest that both John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald and (to name only successful assassins) used these remedies. The phrase “We’ve come to take our government back” may sound more like a football cheer than a threat, but the underlying idea that a particular government is “owned” by a class of people and has been unlawfully seized by the unrighteous is not democratic rhetoric: it is populism gone berserk, Israel shouting for its king.

. . . .

Some fairly impressive scholars think that the Civil War was merely the first outburst of regionally and socially stratified tension that is even worse in the twenty first century than it was in the nineteenth and twentieth. Some of us think the people are no smarter and may–if elections are any barometer–be getting less smart all the time. And some of us think that the United States Constitution is simply inadequate (not imperfect, inadequate) to cope with the growing realities of this system of government.

Contrary to what the “winners” of this election say publicly: there is no divine mandate here. There is no country to be “won back,” no regime in place. There is no guarantee that America will survive the savagery of the masses and massively under-informed. The Constitution is not a magical formula, just a diagram for a political order that seems massively out of step with the times.

As to the victors, the “voice of the people,” may God give them the king they desire, one who looks, feels, speaks, and thinks just like them.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Chachacha » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:07 pm

He's either a rational believer or a rationalizing Democrat. (Humor :))

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:29 pm

No need to apologize for citing a Biblical scholar. Most of them don't bite.

Elections are as meaningless as Hoffmann suggests, and they are meaningless because "the American people" are massively under-informed; however, every individual is massively under-informed, without exception. Every individual was also massively under-informed two short years ago, the last time "the people" threw the bums out in historical proportions. In narrowly (and cluelessly) partisan terms, we've now thrown the same bums back in. I guess they learned their lesson over the last couple of years and won't be so representative of the massively under-informed this time.

Needless to say, "the American people" is a myth. It's a collectivist fiction. "The American people" is a sequence of three words and nothing more meaningful. There is no single head filled with the information in every American head and able to coordinate all of this information to organize resources satisfying everyone optimally. No such thing exists, and no such thing could ever exist. Biannual plebiscites electing representatives to a central committee doesn't change this fact, no matter how "honest" and "fair" the elections. Perfectly "honest" elections don't fix this system, because the problem is that we have a central committee with so much authority to make so many decisions that no individual or committee is, or ever could be, competent to make.

... the triumph of the Tea Party para-revolutionaries.

This story is the mindless conclusion now to be reported to the massively-uninformed "people" by massively-unformed pundits like Hoffman. No offense to Hoffman. He can't avoid being massively-uninformed, because he's confined to an infinitesimal slice of space-time, like the rest of us.

There was no triumph of the Tea Party para-revolutionaries, largely because "the Tea Party" is another largely meaningless, collectivist myth. The earliest "tea party" was an outgrowth of the Ron Paul Presidential campaign. Neither the "religious right" nor the likes of Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich had anything to do with the Paul campaign. Palin and Gingrich mocked and ridiculed Paul, along with John McCain and Rude Giuliani, and the "religious right" largely lined up against his libertarian message as well.

Only a handful of the new elected Republicrats ever claimed the "tea party" mantle. The most infamous "tea partiers", like Christine O'Donnell, lost their elections, and many of them invited themselves to the party long after it started anyway. Rand Paul accepted the label, and he fits well enough into the earlier mold, but he's not the rule of this "realignment" at all. He's the exception.

Even if Rand Paul is as principled as his father and adheres to similar principles, which seems unlikely, Ron Paul's voice will barely be amplified. Instead of being one of two or three consistent votes in the Congress on many issues, like war funding and opposition to bailouts when it matters, maybe he'll be one of ten or twenty, out of 535. I'm not exaggerating. These numbers are accurate. The para-revolution never happened, but the punditry will pretend that it did and then blame it for everything that goes wrong over the next two years, so we can have another realignment signifying nothing in the next plebiscite and elect a central committee coveting even more authority.

The People is bipolar, and its disorder is approaching schizophrenia, and I don't see how the spiral toward collective insanity can change, because the central authority is large and powerful and still growing, like a tumor on the collective Brain.

As to the victors, the “voice of the people,” may God give them the king they desire, one who looks, feels, speaks, and thinks just like them.

Of course, He will. What else can He do? Take the form of a man, while retaining His omniscience and omnipresence somehow, and claim the crown himself, so He can materialize whenever a bureaucrat in a massive, hierarchical, centrally directed, corporative state needs to make an informed decision but lacks the required information? God doesn't seem interested in this turn of events, but people bound to massive, growing central authorities will continue to wish for it. What else can they do?
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:08 pm

Chachacha wrote:He's either a rational believer or a rationalizing Democrat. (Humor :))

Sounds more like the latter. On one level, he seems to fault the unwashed masses for failing to give his own chosen king enough time "to cope with the growing realities of this system of government", as opposed to ordering many people "to plow his ground and reap his harvest and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots". Hoffmann associates the "tea party" with "haters" like John Wilkes Booth, assassin of good king Lincoln, and wonders why "the people" don't know a good king when they see one.

But on another level, Hoffmann seems to understand that the people aren't the problem. They're just the people. The problem is that so many people (including people like Hoffman) expect kings to be something other than kings. Ordering people to plow fields and make equipment for chariots is coping with the realities of this system of government. There is no battle between the good kings and the bad kings. There's only the kings being kings.

Hoffman is one of the people with this expectation, and he understands the problem, at the same time. That's called "irony".
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Jeff D » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:13 pm

As a general rule, I don't apologize for citing a Biblical scholar, and I didn't intend to seem to be apologizing for citing Hoffman.

Most Biblical scholars are quite skilled at careful textual analysis and (by training and experience) are capable of very good, skeptical critical thinking. The few Biblical scholars who turn out to be not very good, or very consistent, in their skepticism or critical thinking are those who put a higher priority on their commitment to certain theological ideas or bits of dogma, who feel it is more important to defend and perpetuate the "party line."

As for "the American people," yes, it is a vague abstraction, and mouthing it or writing it amounts to a tacit concealment of roiling, chaotic diversity. I have the same reaction whenever I hear or read "the black community" or "the African-American community," as if there is only one.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:19 pm

Every "body" thinks it is every other "body" who doesn't have the capacity to understand anything that has more than one answer.

Would that there were something more to be learned from this election than that it's "the other guy" who is really too stupid to be allowed to vote.

I did two instructive things on Election Night:
1) Went to dinner (as a guest) in a famous restaurant in the gleaming heart of Chicago (now like the hearts of most American cities, an almost exclusively financial district, most skyscrapers (including the one "Sears" Tower) now the property of insurance companies.
(That MIGHT tell us more than Fox News manages to impart on any given day.)
The restaurant was completely full, reservations having been required a month in advance, and the check was god only know what....
But in the dark, outside the restaurant, and in the surrounding wintry streets, the beggars in the street were out in full force too...
"A house so divided....."
No point in moralizing about it.... though.
But it's hard to overlook that "American Prometheus" as a euphemism for our image in the world has been replaced by "American Begger."
We are our own Rust Belt, from sea to shining sea.

2) Watched the great film of Ivan Szabo "Mephisto."
Much more instructive, and ominous as it was when I first saw it in 1982,
And almost as depressing as the election returns...."Mephisto" opens as one election sets in motion the terrifying fate of much of the world.

Not because any particular candidate of mine (to the extent that I actually had a candidate that reflected my views OR my hopes for the country.
Quite the contrary.... my "lesser of two evil" candidates were all successful..... but because the specter of working poor, or worse, working poor on their way to being another branch of the permanent underclass, clearly voting against (the dregs) of their own self-interest show the clear result of neglectful educations.........
What is the point of even holding elections where the results of predictable in advance, based on the enormous - startling really ... amounts of money necessary not to WIN, but to LOSE?
To give us a result where millionaires (and their chosen minions)consistently work to legislate against any minimal concerns for the health, welfare, and economic futures of the majority of our citizens?
If that isn't a blow to any pretense of reason, what is?


Norma Manna Blum
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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by shadowfax » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:50 pm

nmblum wrote:Quite the contrary.... my "lesser of two evil" candidates were all successful..... but because the specter of working poor, or worse, working poor on their way to being another branch of the permanent underclass, clearly voting against (the dregs) of their own self-interest show the clear result of neglectful educations.........
What is the point of even holding elections where the results of predictable in advance, based on the enormous - startling really ... amounts of money necessary not to WIN, but to LOSE?
To give us a result where millionaires (and their chosen minions)consistently work to legislate against any minimal concerns for the health, welfare, and economic futures of the majority of our citizens?
If that isn't a blow to any pretense of reason, what is?


Norma Manna Blum


I think you hit the nail on the head. I think it's pretty obvious who the Republicans are fighting for, and if you don't have an AmEx Black card, you're not it.

But I also think that an electorate gets the government it deserves. Like it or not, the people have spoken. Of course, this means that when education is privatized, and they can't get coverage for cancer because their insurance company dropped them, and they lose their shirt (again) in another financial collapse, I'm not going to have a whole lot of sympathy for them, either.

Even assuming we were gullible enough to believe the lies (Obamunist socialized medicine does not exist, will not exist, and was never proposed) we should be mindful of recent history enough to know that the Republicans are not going to govern in a way that will produce the results they promise. They've had since 1980 to show us whether or not their system works. It doesn't. It causes financial collapse and fiscally harms anyone who doesn't have at least 8 digits in their bank account - that of course being the goal so that the purchasing power of the rich is enhanced. That people cannot remember just 2 short years ago when we were on the verge of Depression 2.0, and remember who was at the helm when that happened, shows that the people are willfully ignorant about the forces that drive their country.

They'd rather watch Survivor.

And so, the people will indeed get the government they deserve. I have a theory that they will continue to deserve such a government until an actual disaster happens. The recession wasn't enough. Unlike the Depression, no one starved, no one stood in bread lines that wrapped around the block, and no one had to load all their stuff onto a crapped-out broken down old truck and drive to Californee hoping to find crops to harvest. That's what it took in the 30's to get people on the progressive train. That's what it will probably take again.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:47 pm

Seems to me some of the posts above drastically miss the mark.

Some people are informed and some are not, but even those who are not have a sense for when things are going drastically wrong and vote accordingly.

Some people think they are informed still get it wrong.

Example: The poor need jobs, and it was Democrat policy, the progressive train, that caused the current recession. So to claim that the poor voted against their self interest is uninformed, even though the people posting such think they are informed.

One can be informed with a bunch of garbage that doesn't hit the nail on the head, and one can hear the truth and reject it because of emotional attachments to ideology.

Smart does not make people right, sometimes it only provides them with more effective ways to avoid reality.

The great uniformed voted their conscience, and things were so far askew that this is all they needed to know.

So what exactly is it that they did know? They know that if you are poor / broke that the wrong thing to do is go out and apply for as many credit cards as you can get, and run them all up to the max. Even the uninformed can think on to the next logical step / consequence beyond that goofy logic, which leads to ruin.

They know that America is a great country because "we the people" enjoy certain freedoms, and to systematically chip away at them by concentrating wealth flow and power in DC is not the answer.

They know that Obama has set us up for even worse problems down the road.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Squishua » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:18 pm

Martin Brock wrote:Perfectly "honest" elections don't fix this system, because the problem is that we have a central committee with so much authority to make so many decisions that no individual or committee is, or ever could be, competent to make.

Sometimes they don't even make a pretense of being competent, as in the blind passage (and renewals) of the odiously named "Patriot Act."
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by shadowfax » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:27 pm

rrichar911 wrote:
Example: The poor need jobs, and it was Democrat policy, the progressive train, that caused the current recession. So to claim that the poor voted against their self interest is uninformed, even though the people posting such think they are informed.


Know how I know you watch Fox News?

So what exactly is it that they did know? They know that if you are poor / broke that the wrong thing to do is go out and apply for as many credit cards as you can get, and run them all up to the max. Even the uninformed can think on to the next logical step / consequence beyond that goofy logic, which leads to ruin.


Then explain how cutting taxes while spending trillions on two wars was a good idea.

They know that America is a great country because "we the people" enjoy certain freedoms, and to systematically chip away at them by concentrating wealth flow and power in DC is not the answer.


Well, yes, so then why are you defending the Republicans? Because that's exactly what they're doing. (in addition to stripping us of social freedoms as well by, among other things, trying to brand homosexuality as a choice and then telling us that people are not free to *make* that "choice."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:23 pm

rrichar911 wrote:Seems to me some of the posts above drastically miss the mark.

Some people are informed and some are not, but even those who are not have a sense for when things are going drastically wrong and vote accordingly.

Some people think they are informed still get it wrong.

Example: The poor need jobs, and it was Democrat policy, the progressive train, that caused the current recession. So to claim that the poor voted against their self interest is uninformed, even though the people posting such think they are informed.

One can be informed with a bunch of garbage that doesn't hit the nail on the head, and one can hear the truth and reject it because of emotional attachments to ideology.

Smart does not make people right, sometimes it only provides them with more effective ways to avoid reality.

The great uniformed voted their conscience, and things were so far askew that this is all they needed to know.

So what exactly is it that they did know? They know that if you are poor / broke that the wrong thing to do is go out and apply for as many credit cards as you can get, and run them all up to the max. Even the uninformed can think on to the next logical step / consequence beyond that goofy logic, which leads to ruin.

They know that America is a great country because "we the people" enjoy certain freedoms, and to systematically chip away at them by concentrating wealth flow and power in DC is not the answer.

They know that Obama has set us up for even worse problems down the road.

Your passion for logic is well known here: you have spoken of it often.
Nonetheless, there is nothing in the organization of your sentences (which I assume you mean to reflect your thought processes) that includes any suggestion whatever of logic, even using the loosest possible interpretations of its meaning.
There is not a phrase, not a word in your post that makes even a suggestion of reason, or sense.
There is, despite your imagination to the contrary, no THERE there....
That is not to argue with your opinions, which are your own acquired misconceptions, and to which you are entitled (or entitled to at least until that magic moment when your take your rifle up to the top of the water tower)..
However. . just to defend what you obviously believe to be a superior intelligence as well as education, please take your paragraph:
Example: The poor need jobs, and it was Democrat policy, the progressive train, that caused the current recession. So to claim that the poor voted against their self interest is uninformed, even though the people posting such think they are informed.
and parse it for logical construct and/or even the merest attempt at verifiable information.
It is, purely and simply , gibberish... the words themselves are barely connected with one another.
They only remind your readers, that the lack of critical thinking inherent in your message (s) is not unique, but increasingly apparent in our ethos, unavoidable, increasingly analogous to a noose around the national neck.
An example of a tragic and possibly fatal flaw that has actually infected a good part of our citizenry, a completely misplaced sense of exceptionalism now reduced to being based on nothing at all.
And so misguided as about to lay us all low.
Very low.
Ignorance, in contrast to what you have obviously been taught, is not bliss, or even benign, but a virulent contagious disease.....

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Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:58 pm

shadowfax wrote:That's what it took in the 30's to get people on the progressive train. That's what it will probably take again.

People got on the "progressive train" when they elected Franklin Roosevelt in 1932, right? The unemployment rate was 24% then. Six years later, the unemployment rate was 20%. Unemployment was well over 15% right up until the second world war, whereupon the Demoblican party plunged the U.S. into even greater poverty by employing people, who previously were merely unproductive, to destroy things. What could Roosevelt have done instead? He could have done thousands of things, even millions of things, that he didn't do. We should discuss these things, but we probably won't.

Will the Republicrats now save us from this fate? No. They won't. I rather expect them to follow David Broder's advice and plunge the U.S. into another war, this time with a draft, with Obamaniacs cheering them on. God help us.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 pm

shadowfax wrote:Then explain how cutting taxes while spending trillions on two wars was a good idea.

It wasn't a good idea. Spending more trillions on bailouts and "stimulus", over an even shorter time, wasn't a good idea either.

Well, yes, so then why are you defending the Republicans? Because that's exactly what they're doing. (in addition to stripping us of social freedoms as well by, among other things, trying to brand homosexuality as a choice and then telling us that people are not free to *make* that "choice."

I don't know that he's defending any Republicans. Offending Demoblicans is not equivalent to defending Republicrats.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:10 am

Martin Brock wrote:
shadowfax wrote:Then explain how cutting taxes while spending trillions on two wars was a good idea.

It wasn't a good idea. Spending more trillions on bailouts and "stimulus", over an even shorter time, wasn't a good idea either.

Well, yes, so then why are you defending the Republicans? Because that's exactly what they're doing. (in addition to stripping us of social freedoms as well by, among other things, trying to brand homosexuality as a choice and then telling us that people are not free to *make* that "choice."

I don't know that he's defending any Republicans. Offending Demoblicans is not equivalent to defending Republicrats.


Except for one significant thing: you can't prove that the stimulus OR the bailouts were actually deleterious to the economic well being of the country.... you can only point out that they didn't IMMEDIATELY solve the problem of double digit unemployment.
Not quite the same thing.
However the wars in which we have been fruitlessly and expensively (omitting the actual harm they have done to the fabric of our lives AND our image both at home and abroad) engaged have been provable disasters.
We have effectively LOST them both, and at the same time proved beyond any doubt that whatever image we had of excellence, inventiveness or even competence, are now the stuff of nostalgia, broken dreams.
Quite a difference in effect I would say.
What would you say?
And by the way, not to interfere with the general torpor both practical AND moral which is our current national malaise, at no time during the
diarrhea of right-wing political analysis that accompanied this election was the world "war" ever mentioned.
Neither the actual military encounters involving troops or the increasing debt we are constantly incurring by paying for the aftermath: taking care of the maimed and the deranged doesn't come cheap.
Either do the insurance payouts.
And keeping up the care of those military cemeteries, is for people so concerned with deficits and debt, no mashed potatoes either.


So while your won "analysis" that the Republicans will proceed to yet MORE wars, after effecting a draft, is only half an idea.
They are indeed war -mongers on general principles.. (white guys without chins in the Senate, flexing their withered muscles... disgusting )...... there will be no draft.
The right i n America doesn't learn much, but it did learn from the turmoil (and end of the Vietnam War): the general torpor mentioned above would be dispelled at any attempt to reinstate a draft.
The American middle class (the REAL middle class, not the highly paid employees who lived paycheck to paycheck and were given that honorary (and blindness inducing) classification) will never tolerate their children going off to be maimed, and killed in wars that have no possible moral or practical purpose. They took a while, but they didn't tolerate it in the early Seventies... and while memories here are short, they aren't tolerating any mention of it now.

That.
And also that the next wars will need fewer actual soldiers and more brainiacs who understand the value of ever more sophisticated and automated technology.
(Some of our suffering seems to be coming from the fact that our so-called "pundits" don't really know a lot about what is going on where it really counts.)

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Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:15 am

nmblum wrote:Except for one significant thing: you can't prove that the stimulus OR the bailouts were actually deleterious to the economic well being of the country.... you can only point out that they didn't IMMEDIATELY solve the problem of double digit unemployment.

Neither the stimulus nor the bailout organized idle resources to produce goods more valuable to the market than goods these resources consume. State spending doesn't have this effect. I don't oppose "stimulus" of any description, but I prefer a different sort of "stimulus".

For example, would-be entrepreneurs post business plans at a web site, and unemployed people browse these plans. If enough unemployed people choose a particular plan, the entrepreneur may incorporate, and the corporation may borrow sufficient funds to hire the people at modest wages plus shares in the corporation for a period of time, say two years. At the end of this time, if the corporation is not profitable (meeting payroll and other expenses including debt service) and cannot raise funds privately, it declares bankruptcy, and the employees start over, but they may not start over with each other. No unprofitable corporation is ever bailed out, but these corporations could be temporarily exempt from many taxes, regulations, patent royalties and other costs.

Assuming that every single unemployed person participated (which definitely wouldn't happen), this "stimulus" could provide $50,000 per person for around three quarters of a trillion dollars per year, at the current rate of unemployment. The wages would be less than $50,000/person, of course, because businesses have expenses other than wages and entepreneurs would offer market wages. Many unemployed people wouldn't participate, because they wouldn't accept the modest wages offered, so the actual cost would be lower, say half a trillion dollars. Also, some of these businesses would become profitable and repay their debts and thus cost the program nothing, so the cost would be less than half a trillion dollars per year, possibly much less. By contrast, the "stimulus" plans already enacted, including unemployment benefits and similar benefits as well as Fed programs, have already cost several trillion dollars over two years, and the unemployment rate is still near ten percent.

This sort of "stimulus plan" could employ practically all of the unemployed IMMEDIATELY for much less than the cost of "stimulus" already enacted, and small groups of people would decide how to reemploy themselves to satisfy the market, rather than desperately hoping that the state or some established corporation will employ them once it decides how else it wants to spend its cut of the "stimulus".

Why aren't we employing people this way? There can only be one answer. "Stimulus" is not about employing people. If you think that the bailouts and "stimulus" programs have anything to do with employing the unemployed, you just don't know what's going on. The Fed did not buy a trillion dollars worth of mortgage backed securities of dubious value from FNMA and FHLMC to employ people. It bought this paper to bail out banks and relatively rich people, like you.

The right in America doesn't learn much, but it did learn from the turmoil (and end of the Vietnam War): the general torpor mentioned above would be dispelled at any attempt to reinstate a draft.

I hope you're right, but I never said anything about "the right".
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:24 am

nmblum wrote:
Martin Brock wrote:
shadowfax wrote:Then explain how cutting taxes while spending trillions on two wars was a good idea.

It wasn't a good idea. Spending more trillions on bailouts and "stimulus", over an even shorter time, wasn't a good idea either.

Well, yes, so then why are you defending the Republicans? Because that's exactly what they're doing. (in addition to stripping us of social freedoms as well by, among other things, trying to brand homosexuality as a choice and then telling us that people are not free to *make* that "choice."

I don't know that he's defending any Republicans. Offending Demoblicans is not equivalent to defending Republicrats.


Except for one significant thing: you can't prove that the stimulus OR the bailouts were actually deleterious to the economic well being of the country.... you can only point out that they didn't IMMEDIATELY solve the problem of double digit unemployment.
Not quite the same thing.
Norma Manna Bllum


Well, actually that is quite easy to do.

Go to every bank in your town and gather up as many credit cards as you can, and then go on a spending spree, running all your cards up to the max, until your credit no longer exists, and your now broke with nothing left but to declare bankruptcy.

After you have done this, then come back and tell us how many problems you solved, and how no one can prove that your actions were deleterious to your economy.

An individual can actually do that and declare bankruptcy and start over, because there are companies around that you stiffed who are strong enough to with stand the loss. But a country cannot, unless it is a small country with bigger more prosperous countries around willing bail it out of its stupidity.

America however is ~ 25% of the worlds economy, so when it goes down the tubes so does everyone else. Point being there is no one big and strong enough to bail us out of such moronic behavior.

Think China can? Think again. China's GNP is ~ 1.5 Trillion, while our economy is ~ 14 Trillion. Obama ran up more debt in two years than China's entire economy.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:45 pm

rrichar911 wrote:Go to every bank in your town and gather up as many credit cards as you can, and then go on a spending spree, running all your cards up to the max, until your credit no longer exists, and your now broke with nothing left but to declare bankruptcy.

Running around with credit cards is a perfectly plausible way of climbing out of a recession, if the people with the credit cards are independently attempting with their credit to produce goods for the market. If the people are just taking vacations with the credit cards, consuming without really trying to produce anything of value to others, they won't climb out of any recession, of course, but that's no reason to remain unemployed rather than attempting to rejoin the market. Sufficient credit for this purpose always exists.

All businesses in a market economy are experimental and temporary. All businesses declare bankruptcy at some point. This fact implies no fundamental problem. It only implies a continual necessity to reorganize idle resources into new productive organizations seeking profit. Preventing this reorganization by continually bailing out unprofitable organizations is the problem. The scramble for these bailouts creates the credit crunch that prevents reemployment of the unemployed. We aren't even trying to reemploy the unemployed at this point. We're instead channeling more and more money into established but unprofitable organizations that should be dissolving, including state organizations. We aren't reemploying the unproductively unemployed, because we're continually bailing out the unproductively employed instead.

After you have done this, then come back and tell us how many problems you solved, and how no one can prove that your actions were deleterious to your economy.

Proof is not the problem. Getting anyone to listen to the proof is the problem. At some point, the problem is not that other people are unemployed. The problem is that you are still employed or that you haven't lost enough of your bank deposits yet or that the price of your house or your gold or your farmland hasn't collapsed yet.

An individual can actually do that and declare bankruptcy and start over, because there are companies around that you stiffed who are strong enough to with stand the loss. But a country cannot, unless it is a small country with bigger more prosperous countries around willing bail it out of its stupidity.

When we actually get around to it, we'll bail ourselves out, because that's all we can really do. We don't need poorer countries to bail us out. We still have more productive infrastructure here. We're forgetting how to organize it more productively, because our vision is clouded by all the misleading signals created by endless bailouts, but this problem will end at some point.

America however is ~ 25% of the worlds economy, so when it goes down the tubes so does everyone else. Point being there is no one big and strong enough to bail us out of such moronic behavior.

The world isn't going down the tubes because lots of financiers and politicians have made the wrong promises to the wrong people. Many promises will be broken, like promises the Greek government made to Greek pensioners, but that's not really a problem. Looming starvation isn't really a problem, not in the U.S. at least, and I don't care that people can't retire for as long as they expected or keep up the payments on their vacation home.

Think China can? Think again. China's GNP is ~ 1.5 Trillion, while our economy is ~ 14 Trillion. Obama ran up more debt in two years than China's entire economy.

China's nominal GDP is $5 trillion, and the dollar value of its GDP in terms of purchasing power parity is $9 trillion. These two values are very different, because the exchange rate of China's currency makes goods produced in China relatively inexpensive, in dollar terms, compared with goods produced in the U.S.

China has a large trade surplus with the U.S. for this reason, so it has a large surplus of dollars to spend here, but it spends the dollars on things like U.S. Treasury securities, and that's a problem. We should default on these securities, tell the Chinese that we won't repay the debts, but we won't do that, so China continues its own game of creating its own money to buy our money in order to keep the exchange rate of its currency low and its merchandise trade surplus with the U.S. high. If we simply defaulted on all of these "securities", China would stop playing the game. It's a bizarre predicament.

So instead of defaulting on the securities suddenly, we'll do it gradually through inflation. We'll create more U.S. dollars and use the dollars buy to the treasury securities back from the Chinese, thus lowering long term interest rates so much that China is unwilling to hold the securities. Then China exchanges the treasury securities for dollars and buys something else priced in dollars, like mortgage backed securities, but we then bail those out too, thus defeating the purpose.

I'm not sure what China's monetary authorities will buy next, maybe U.S. farmland if they can. Farmland already seems to be in bubble territory, but buying U.S. farmland and other agriculturally productive assets in the U.S. seems to make more sense for the Chinese at this point. The U.S. has a lot more spare productive capacity in agriculture than China, and China is facing a demographic transition of epic proportions, dwarfing the still daunting problem in the U.S. (the imminent retirement of the baby boom).

Note that I was saying the same thing back in September of 2008, so this analysis seems to hold water. I don't know why we aren't discussing the demographic transition nearly as much as we discuss financial gaming and war and "stimulus", but we aren't.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:50 pm

Martin Brock

I have no arguments with what you said, but it seems to me that the more serious problem is humongous debt, which is in some part created by the points you made.

I understand that something will move forward after bankruptcy, for the people who did manage to survive the blood in the streets, but not with out tons of pain and misery. Pain and misery which was totally unnecessary.

My point is simple. One cannot avoid logic and reason as solutions to problems. Apply illogical solutions and there is a price to pay.

Exactly what that price is, can be debated. Bankrupting the nation will not be pain free.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:57 am

'
Martin Brock wrote:All businesses in a market economy are experimental and temporary. All businesses declare bankruptcy at some point. This fact implies no fundamental problem. It only implies a continual necessity to reorganize idle resources into new productive organizations seeking profit. Preventing this reorganization by continually bailing out unprofitable organizations is the problem.

But the Americans must bail out GM, for instance, since it makes so much stulf for the American military.

Letting GM go under would deal a crippling blow to the War Machine of the Military-Industrial Conspiracy Complex!

That would be a great thing if we could swing it---but don't hold your breath!

.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:24 pm

numan wrote:'
Martin Brock wrote:All businesses in a market economy are experimental and temporary. All businesses declare bankruptcy at some point. This fact implies no fundamental problem. It only implies a continual necessity to reorganize idle resources into new productive organizations seeking profit. Preventing this reorganization by continually bailing out unprofitable organizations is the problem.

But the Americans must bail out GM, for instance, since it makes so much stulf for the American military.

Letting GM go under would deal a crippling blow to the War Machine of the Military-Industrial Conspiracy Complex!

That would be a great thing if we could swing it---but don't hold your breath!

.


Poignant. (And I am particularly touched by that "we.")

What is there about the outmoded cold-war vocabulary that so touches the heart?

Nostalgia for the good old days of much easier explanations?
Probably.

(Believe me, PenPal, I miss it myself, just as I miss the outmoded Marxism that fell prey to the holding on to no longer applicable analysis when the reality of globalization replaced the necessity for permanent revolution. The life of the mind was so much less arduous when the square peg could be squeezed into the round hole with but small adaptations to reality.)
Alas, the sad actuality is that GM was just making lousy, unmarketable, non-competitive automobiles, and was sinking into the more of unprofitability because of bad management at the top and the power of stockholders who were either too content or too blind to want to stop milking a dead cow.
BUT, BUT were its corporate lack of imagination and impaired technological savvy necessary for the perpetuation of a modern war machine, it is more that possible that allowing it to fail so that it could be reborn in a more efficient model would be more productive than sticking to the old idea of producing TANKS in Detroit and shipping them to customers......well, WHERE?
The thing about poor Detroit is that it could USE a nice old military -industrial-complex to solve its problem of devastating unemployment.
However, its machinery for such enterprise is long obsolete: there is no need for a convoluted system of manufacture and shipping of modern weaponry.
(Wake up and smell the coffee...... of goodbye, Detroit, hello, Teheran... "the old order changeth. yielding place to new...")
But really, most of it can now be (and probably is) created and available in the basements of houses in Saana or Dar es Salaam, or the Medina of Marrakesh, or even in Brooklyn.
Or Toronto.
And where it isn't yet, it will be soon.



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Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:01 pm

numan wrote:'
Martin Brock wrote:All businesses in a market economy are experimental and temporary. All businesses declare bankruptcy at some point. This fact implies no fundamental problem. It only implies a continual necessity to reorganize idle resources into new productive organizations seeking profit. Preventing this reorganization by continually bailing out unprofitable organizations is the problem.

But the Americans must bail out GM, for instance, since it makes so much stulf for the American military.

Right. The American military is not part of the market economy. It's part of a central planning bureaucracy in a command economy, and this command economy is increasingly influential, even dominant, in the U.S. economy.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:40 pm

'
Martin Brock wrote:Right. The American military is not part of the market economy. It's part of a central planning bureaucracy in a command economy, and this command economy is increasingly influential, even dominant, in the U.S. economy.

That's great, Martin! I am glad that you recognize this truth!

Now all you need to recognize is the fact that the only place you will find properly constructed, reliable, efficient manufactures in the American economy is in the military---even if they are grossly over-priced!

Whereas, almost everything that is produced in the Free Enterprise economy for the common people is shoddy and produced by creatures who cheat, cut corners, and rely on brainwashing to convince people to buy their inferior goods---which are also grossly over-priced, considering their vile quality!

.
Last edited by numan on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:25 pm

LOL... are you talking about the Chinese?
Or do you have something manufactured in Iran that you are using as a template for improved quality/ excellence?
I drove a Russian designed car manufactured in the late unlamented East Germany and it was not really exemplary, not just for this deluded representative of so -called free market mentality, but for the working people of the Soviet bloc... most of whom couldn't afford it anyway.
But I am so looking forward to availing myself of something designed, manufactured, and marketed in and for the Muslim world..... perhaps a variation of the flying carpet (the actual carpets I purchased from the peddlers in the bazars of the Middle East where the morality of commerce is so much better developed, started to fall apart shortly after I paid for them).
The thing about your pointed and entertaining reflections on the crimes of the West is that you have nothing to replace them with that is a whit better.
Not morally.
And not practically, either.
Western industrialism, including and even perhaps exemplified by the American model, might be heinous, immoral, even inept.
But to whom can YOU point , from wherever you are planted that is better.... and that actually gets things done?
Getting things done, DOES after all, count for something... although who wouldn't want to hang around an oasis with one's flock of sheep, eating dates, and making pronouncement on the shoddy morality, the venality, and the incompetence of the folks who ARE... yes... still, for good or ill, still running the show.
Badly, late, perhaps but getting the planes into the air...
This is the 21st Century.... and while listening to Sheherazade has had its long past charms, having an IPod*** and listening to Maria Callas (or Asmahan, or Om Khalsoum or the Rolling Stones ) anywhere in the world at any time is, with all the crassness that you may like to think goes with it, infinitely better.
Because it's where YOU and I are.
Here and now.
Norma Manna BLum
**** IPod: Steve Jobs: American as apple pie, by Jingo... and not at all shoddy, far from vile... and what the whole world longs for.
If you have anything to top that, speak now.



And now.
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Jeff D » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:33 pm

Non sequitur department: I own two exemplary objects (that I can think of) that are products of Canada, and both of them happen to be Tilley hats.

Apart from assorted movie actors and directors, my other favorite and superior products of Canada that I can recall are musicians (Neil Young, The Arcade Fire, Anna and (late) Kate McGarrigle, etc.) and the patient rights / dying with dignity activist Eric MacDonald.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:51 pm

numan wrote:'
Martin Brock wrote:Right. The American military is not part of the market economy. It's part of a central planning bureaucracy in a command economy, and this command economy is increasingly influential, even dominant, in the U.S. economy.

That's great, Matthew! I am glad that you recognize this truth!

Now all you need to recognize is the fact that the only place you will find properly constructed, reliable, efficient manufactures in the American economy is in the military---even if they are grossly over-priced!

Whereas, almost everything that is produced in the Free Enterprise economy for the common people is shoddy and produced by creatures who cheat, cut corners, and rely on brainwashing to convince people to buy their inferior goods---which are also grossly over-priced, considering their vile quality!

.


God your brain washed. The quality of stuff I buy falls off sharply for many items if they are not made in America.

That is not to say that good stuff is not made else where in the world, but America is still the standard.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:56 pm

nmblum wrote:LOL... are you talking about the Chinese?
Or do you have something manufactured in Iran that you are using as a template for improved quality/ excellence?
I drove a Russian designed car manufactured in the late unlamented East Germany and it was not really exemplary, not just for this deluded representative of so -called free market mentality, but for the working people of the Soviet bloc... most of whom couldn't afford it anyway.
But I am so looking forward to availing myself of something designed, manufactured, and marketed in and for the Muslim world..... perhaps a variation of the flying carpet (the actual carpets I purchased from the peddlers in the bazars of the Middle East where the morality of commerce is so much better developed, started to fall apart shortly after I paid for them).
The thing about your pointed and entertaining reflections on the crimes of the West is that you have nothing to replace them with that is a whit better.
Not morally.
And not practically, either.
Western industrialism, including and even perhaps exemplified by the American model, might be heinous, immoral, even inept.
But to whom can YOU point , from wherever you are planted that is better.... and that actually gets things done?
Getting things done, DOES after all, count for something... although who wouldn't want to hang around an oasis with one's flock of sheep, eating dates, and making pronouncement on the shoddy morality, the venality, and the incompetence of the folks who ARE... yes... still, for good or ill, still running the show.
Badly, late, perhaps but getting the planes into the air...
This is the 21st Century.... and while listening to Sheherazade has had its long past charms, having an IPod*** and listening to Maria Callas (or Asmahan, or Om Khalsoum or the Rolling Stones ) anywhere in the world at any time is, with all the crassness that you may like to think goes with it, infinitely better.
Because it's where YOU and I are.
Here and now.
Norma Manna BLum
**** IPod: Steve Jobs: American as apple pie, by Jingo... and not at all shoddy, far from vile... and what the whole world longs for.
If you have anything to top that, speak now.



And now.


Way to go Norma.

:clap:
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:25 pm

'
nmblum wrote:But to whom can YOU point , from wherever you are planted that is better.... and that actually gets things done?

Blum, you have the most amazing inability to understand what is written in plain English.

I said, quite clearly, that if you have a hope of finding something properly, carefully maunfactured, then it will be for the military---that the stuff manufactured for the commericial, civilian sector is crap---which no one would want to buy unless their brains had been mercilessly addled by the unending brainwashing that makes them think that crap is wonderful !

In words of one syllable or less, my dear Blum, the divide is not north-south, east-west, or any of the other clichés you pulled out, but military-civilian!!

And, for the tedious nit-pickers out there who will yammer on and on about inconsequentials, yes, I will admit that there are some things manufactured for the commercial civilian sector that have some quality. They constitute such a small percentage of the total that they are unimportant to the truth which I have enunciated.

People with some brains should also reflect that what is true of the USA (and much of the "developed" world) was also true of the Soviet Union! What was produced for the civilian "consumer units" was crap, and often, much that was produced for the military was of a high quality.

.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Martin Brock » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:26 pm

numan wrote:Now all you need to recognize is the fact that the only place you will find properly constructed, reliable, efficient manufactures in the American economy is in the military---even if they are grossly over-priced!

Whereas, almost everything that is produced in the Free Enterprise economy for the common people is shoddy and produced by creatures who cheat, cut corners, and rely on brainwashing to convince people to buy their inferior goods---which are also grossly over-priced, considering their vile quality!

Gross over-generalization doesn't appeal to me.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:43 am

numan wrote:'
nmblum wrote:But to whom can YOU point , from wherever you are planted that is better.... and that actually gets things done?

Blum, you have the most amazing inability to understand what is written in plain English.

I said, quite clearly, that if you have a hope of finding something properly, carefully maunfactured, then it will be for the military---that the stuff manufactured for the commericial, civilian sector is crap---which no one would want to buy unless their brains had been mercilessly addled by the unending brainwashing that makes them think that crap is wonderful !

In words of one syllable or less, my dear Blum, the divide is not north-south, east-west, or any of the other clichés you pulled out, but military-civilian!!

And, for the tedious nit-pickers out there who will yammer on and on about inconsequentials, yes, I will admit that there are some things manufactured for the commercial civilian sector that have some quality. They constitute such a small percentage of the total that they are unimportant to the truth which I have enunciated.

People with some brains should also reflect that what is true of the USA (and much of the "developed" world) was also true of the Soviet Union! What was produced for the civilian "consumer units" was crap, and often, much that was produced for the military was of a high quality.

.



I take it then that they did not use the same toilet paper?
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:14 am

rrichar911 wrote:I take it then that they did not use the same toilet paper?

That's why they had no trouble finding volunteers for the armed forces. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by rrichar911 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:00 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:I take it then that they did not use the same toilet paper?

That's why they had no trouble finding volunteers for the armed forces. :mrgreen:


You mean the military had double layered, non skid, and puncture proof, while the civilians had single?
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:09 pm

'
Even the Soviet ruling class did not have triple-ply toilet paper.

We have that, but it is increasingly difficult to find it.

Perhaps if I went to the Officers' Club....

.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Aztexan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:39 pm

I think it's very funny that a thread titled "The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd", which is an obvious reference to the 2010 midterm elections ends up talking about toilet paper by post #29.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:52 pm

'
ruben lopez wrote:I think it's very funny that a thread titled "The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd", which is an obvious reference to the 2010 midterm elections ends up talking about toilet paper by post #29.

It just seems like a logical progression of ideas to me.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:37 pm

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Martin Brock wrote:Gross over-generalization doesn't appeal to me.

Then why do you visit this internet site?

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:26 pm

'
Martin Brock wrote: I rather expect them to follow David Broder's advice and plunge the U.S. into another war, this time with a draft....

I really hope that America's rulers start up the draft again. That will finally and definitively tear the country apart.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by Aztexan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:44 pm

I hope you get a splinter in your finger.

You need to keep up with the news of the country you hate so much. I don't hate the country itself, I can't stand about half of the citizenry. Big difference. But anyways, about your comment about "finally and definitively tear[ing] the country apart". From where I sit, and that's a helluva lot closer than where you sit, this country has surpassed your goals and expectations. Do keep up. I kinda like how you {!#%@} and make other sounds now. Serves us right.
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by numan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:59 pm

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ruben lopez wrote:
From where I sit...this country has surpassed your goals and expectations.

I quite agree with you. No matter how idiotic Americans seem to me, they always surpass my expectations.

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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by KnaveOfHearts » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:07 pm

numan wrote:'
ruben lopez wrote:
From where I sit...this country has surpassed your goals and expectations.

I quite agree with you. No matter how idiotic Americans seem to me, they always surpass my expectations.

.


I find it intriguing how one can be idiotic based on the location of their birth. Also I'd like to point out that it when you saw a problem in America you decided rather than say something or you know take it upon yourself to do something about it like run for office. You ran away and now you sit there in your paranoid little anti-American bubble and complain about us from on high. Congratulations on your contribution to society.
"All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other."
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Re: The Will and the Voice of the People on Nov. 2nd

Post by nmblum88 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:24 pm

rrichar911 wrote:
nmblum wrote:LOL... are you talking about the Chinese?
Or do you have something manufactured in Iran that you are using as a template for improved quality/ excellence?
I drove a Russian designed car manufactured in the late unlamented East Germany and it was not really exemplary, not just for this deluded representative of so -called free market mentality, but for the working people of the Soviet bloc... most of whom couldn't afford it anyway.
But I am so looking forward to availing myself of something designed, manufactured, and marketed in and for the Muslim world..... perhaps a variation of the flying carpet (the actual carpets I purchased from the peddlers in the bazars of the Middle East where the morality of commerce is so much better developed, started to fall apart shortly after I paid for them).
The thing about your pointed and entertaining reflections on the crimes of the West is that you have nothing to replace them with that is a whit better.
Not morally.
And not practically, either.
Western industrialism, including and even perhaps exemplified by the American model, might be heinous, immoral, even inept.
But to whom can YOU point , from wherever you are planted that is better.... and that actually gets things done?
Getting things done, DOES after all, count for something... although who wouldn't want to hang around an oasis with one's flock of sheep, eating dates, and making pronouncement on the shoddy morality, the venality, and the incompetence of the folks who ARE... yes... still, for good or ill, still running the show.
Badly, late, perhaps but getting the planes into the air...
This is the 21st Century.... and while listening to Sheherazade has had its long past charms, having an IPod*** and listening to Maria Callas (or Asmahan, or Om Khalsoum or the Rolling Stones ) anywhere in the world at any time is, with all the crassness that you may like to think goes with it, infinitely better.
Because it's where YOU and I are.
Here and now.
Norma Manna BLum
**** IPod: Steve Jobs: American as apple pie, by Jingo... and not at all shoddy, far from vile... and what the whole world longs for.
If you have anything to top that, speak now.



And now.


Way to go Norma.

:clap:


Try to stay calm.
We are not yet headed for an ideological altar.
There is a difference I hope, between stating what seems obvious and hanging behind defenses hatched by Jesus.

Norma Manna Blum
Skepticism:
" Norma, you poor sad lonely alcoholic. You entire life is devoted to interrupting other people's posts on this forum, regardless of the topic, to tell them what's wrong with them. The irony is, here you are doing it again, with this very post.
Your fanciful card games, movie sojourns and exciting overseas trips, that all take place within the four walls of an aged care retirement home, do not suggest your own children offered you the care, I gave my parents."

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