The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

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The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:56 pm

http://www.amazon.com/The-Devils-Chessb ... 0062276166

If you've got the guts; read it.

Tin foil hats not necessary. Seems very well researched, and seems corroborative with other sources.

Read the reviews. Only a month or two old, the reviews are piling in by the minute all over the interwebs. One of the most revealing books into the secret services and how they have operated, and still do operate, that has been published to date.

Unsure if this belongs here or in the conspiracy sub-forum. I'm a chapter or two in and it's pretty crazy information. Will expound the contents in later posts as I read it.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby gorgeous » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:02 am

not crazy..told ya...they have their own agenda...
Science Fundamentalism...is exactly what happens when there’s a significant, perceived ideological threat to one’s traditions and identity.

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:34 am

zeuzzz wrote: If you've got the guts; read it.
Have you actually read this book yourself?

What specific incident described in the book, shocks you?

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:55 am

Nothing much shocks me as such, it's more that people who live in a TV or tabloid informational world will certainly find the content shocking and drastically at odds with how they think history transpired, and even how it functions in the now.

One of the most prescient things is how the services have been used for political ends to target not just foreign enemies but in-fact internal trade unions, socialists, the democratic ideal process and other things; generally with an extreme politically right bias. I wont go into details until I've finished it and done some cross referencing of the names of places, people and other things involved. Just saying it's a pretty good read.

Reminds me of the after Dark series aired on Channel four back in 1989, the first and last time top secret service officials were gathered in an open ended discourse, a week before the UK got a white paper codified by Thatcher at the time to ban such types of of talks, and put the official secrets act into law to stop the publication of numerous books that were soon to come out by various intelligence officers. The paper sort of worked ... in the UK, but a lot of time people found ways to publish in foreign countries, and were unable to advertise the book in the UK to their audience, so drew little attention. This seems like the kind of book they were trying to ban, somehow (I guess now due to the internet) it's become an impossible task to stop all leaks and books.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:02 am

gorgeous wrote:not crazy..told ya...they have their own agenda...


I don't know what your trying to say but I get the opposite impression. The the secret services and military are a total mess, with rival factions and rogue elements even within their own organizations, let alone trans-institutional rivalries and agendas.

I very much have never got the impression that there is an over-arching conspiracy theory where some-people/organization (or 'them' 'they', whatever) is in control. They all just seem to be a bit of a mess, and rarely have much control (for long periods of time) over anything. Much more ruled by the dynamics of chaos than by control. Even if control is what they are all seeking. Maybe Psy-Ops excluded. They've tended to work quite well and be quite enduring. The compartmentalization of organizations like this make it very hard for any single person to know the entirety of what that organization is doing. Thus you get a splintering of goals and aims, rather than a confluence.

At least books like this are a part of the jigsaw puzzle.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:21 am

Maybe for now Jacob Applebaum sums it all up quite well in this ten minute testimony at the EU. Sorry for being vague at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIP2RN0NlI8
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:54 am

I think you, Matt, would find that 'after Dark' episode I linked to very very interesting. It really was one of the last of that type of an open kind of discourse from separate secret service agents. It is old. But still very prescient, in terms of how the secret state relates to the government, politicians, the media and the electorate.

Ever since such discussions are largely (if not formally) illegal now,
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:24 pm

zeuzzz, two days ago wrote:If you've got the guts; read it.
zeuzzz wrote:Nothing much shocks me as such,
So, you are warning us about a book you haven't actually read, but, you yourself don't find the contents shocking, because you haven't actually read it?

Zeuzzz, even you must see how stupid you are in the above scenario.
:lol:

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:52 pm

zeuzzz wrote:One of the most prescient things is how the services have been used for political ends to target not just foreign enemies but in-fact internal trade unions, socialists, the democratic ideal process and other things

The foreign service of the KGB and allies, have been targeting foreign trade unions and political parties since the 1920s. Mi5, New Scotland Yard, the FBI and all domestic counter intelligence services, had to fight against that. That was the hard unknown work. That some services went too far the other way is well documented.

May I remind you that this is exactly what our foreign services "do to them". you don't really think the Polish Solidarity movement wasn't CIA sponsored, with a knowing wink from the Pope?


zeuzzz wrote: I wont go into details
I am extremely ready to go into details as I have been looking into this since the early 80's, mostly concerning the UK and Commonwealth countries. The text book you need to start with is the book on Soviet penetration of foreign trade unions and political parties, the Mitrokhin Archive from a senior KGB defector. It also shows how the Soviets worked foreign media. ( It also details some "illegals".)

My speciality was the CEEBEEGEEBEES (Communist Party of Great Britain). ( It's a 80's pun on the "getting the heeebeegeebees")

zeuzzz wrote:The paper sort of worked ... in the UK, but a lot of time people found ways to publish in foreign countries, and were unable to advertise the book in the UK to their audience, so drew little attention.
You are talking about Peter Wright and his book Spycatcher, that was published in Australia but not allowed to be advertised in the UK. The real reason the book was banned was because it provided evidence that Sir Roger Hollis, the director Mi5 was recruited by the KGB back in the 20's. Peter Wright's barrister at the time was Malcolm Turnbull. Malcolm is now Prime Minister of Australia and "knows his spooky action at a distance" (foreign political interference) .

(For lovers of follow up stories, Sir Roger Hollis, used to go on holidays with Kenneth Williams from the Carry On team. This "gem" turned up when Kenneth Williams died)

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:10 am

zeuzzz wrote:I think you, Matt, would find that 'after Dark' episode I linked to very very interesting. It really was one of the last of that type of an open kind of discourse from separate secret service agents.

The UK and Commonwealth doesn't have "secret service agents." An "agent" is the person supplying the information from "the source". (Think Newsagent). The people gathering the information, from the agent, are either commissioned intelligence officers or trusted contracted specialists with unique technical knowledge or skills. Anything that requires violence is performed by trained soldiers seconded to the services.

To make this clear James Bond was a commissioned officer in the Royal Navy. He was contracted as a specialist to win a card game and then, in the subsequent novels, seconded to the SIS to do "wet jobs" because normal foreign intelligence officers do not carry guns. ( Bond was "licensed to kill") In fact normal foreign intelligence officers are a mix of little old ladies, gay boys without backgrounds, multi linguists, insane conspiracy nuts, ex-priests fro exotic locations, and the occasional team leader who has to keep these people working together.

The claim in 1968 was the Russians were locking political dissidents in psychiatric hospitals. My father went to Moscow to review this for the Commonwealth as he is a psychiatrist and RAAF officer. The story turned out to be false. The Russians simply sent people to Gulags or shot them.

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:03 am

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:14 am

Heh someone has done their research. At least at a trivial level. Did you enjoy watching the After Dark episode? It really was the one and only time disparate intelligence officers from separate services openly had a media shown talk for three hours. Very interesting. Such a show would now be illegal.

How did James Rusbridger, the secret service expert that spoke on that program against the unaccountability of the intelligence services, die, Matt?
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:20 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz, two days ago wrote:If you've got the guts; read it.
zeuzzz wrote:Nothing much shocks me as such,
So, you are warning us about a book you haven't actually read, but, you yourself don't find the contents shocking, because you haven't actually read it?

Zeuzzz, even you must see how stupid you are in the above scenario.
:lol:


Matt I am tailoring my posts for a general audience. That I assume are not entirely internet or at least hacking/OSINT literate or aware. My position is far less ridiculous than other positions you have made in the past.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:09 am

zeuzzz wrote:Heh someone has done their research. At least at a trivial level.
No Zuezzz. Not trivial. Factual.

zeuzzz wrote: Did you enjoy watching the After Dark episode?
No Zeuzzz. I read source documents rather than view popular opinions on TV shows designed to find an audience. That's how intelligence gathering actually works. It is boring "tid bits" that make up the "inputs" for an intelligence analyst to work with.

zeuzzz wrote: It really was the one and only time disparate intelligence officers from separate services openly had a media shown talk for three hours. Very interesting. Such a show would now be illegal.
Under what act Zeuzzz? The old "D" notices in the UK were voluntary. The "Official Secrets Act" only works for people who contracted to incorporate that act as a conditional term. In Australia contracts refer to another Act, and you get sued in the civil courts for breach of contract. Commissioned military officers and lower ranks, comply to yet another regime.

zeuzzz wrote: How did James Rusbridger, the secret service expert that spoke on that program against the unaccountability of the intelligence services, die, Matt?
I couldn't give a rat's arse. I couldn't give a rat's arse how other "blabber mouths" die either. Richard Tomlinson was an SIS officer, who sold a list of all SiS officers to a media company, David Shayler did the same five years earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Tomlinson


Control systems of UK Intelligence Services
Zuezzz, before you get even more confused, I ask you to set out the publicly known, independent control systems for Mi6 and the SIS, away from the home office and the Foreign office. Next, I want you to set out the different mandates for the main UK services, The SIS, Mi6, DI and the JIO steering committee. If you don't understand the differences between these services, you will never understand how they operate.


Rupert Allason, is a British MP and historian. His "other name" is Nigel West under which he authors books. You should read them.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:01 pm

Heh I remember David Shayler. At least I watched his (largely paranoid) documentary about 7/7 in the UK. Whatever became of him? I know that he fled to France a decade or so ago, after blowing the whistle on them, with another MI5 female agent whose name alludes me. She was interviewed on London real this year about that entire fiasco. Annie something I think, purely from memory.

EDIT: Found it. Was Annie Machon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Machon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shayler
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:15 pm

Matt you have openly stated how
Matthew Ellard wrote: I couldn't give a rat's arse how other "blabber mouths"
and how they died.

Fair enough. If that is your position, you can at least stick to it, or you can at least clarify it now.

Does it annoy you that a 15 year old can program an OSINT issue into workable and functional code, and make a speech like this, openly exposing 'secret service' officials in his program to the world, in an open source fashion, simply via a youtube upload?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6W6UytaJqc
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:20 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Heh I remember David Shayler. Whatever became of him?
He is left gaol in France in 2015, after winning an appeal against his conviction and forthcoming extradition to the UK. It is now up to the French Ministry of Justice, as to whether they appeal against this lower court ruling.

He is now a conspiracy theorist and claiming that the Charlie Hedbo terrorist act was a Mi5 & Deuxieme Bureau false flag operation. http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/630 ... ISIS-Daesh

He also lives now as a Transvestite with his partner in France.
article-1200089-05BB9FB2000005DC-578_468x337.jpg


That's the main difference between the western and eastern services. An "field officer" who hunts treasure on his own, must be a thief, a narcissist, no morals, highly intelligent, no hesitation, a brilliant bull-shit artist and absolutely ruthless. The British "find" these people. The Russians "train up staff". Maurice Oldfield, was a homosexual and former director of Mi6. Oldfield openly discusses why there are are so many homosexual field officers in the service, for all of the above reasons.

( Oldfield didn't state that the other reason was simply blackmail and that this was "going to end" when homosexuality stopped becoming a taboo. This was rather humorous, because at the same time Yuri Andropov, head all all the KGBs, said the fall of communism, would eliminate "foreign true believers" and the KGB would have to pay for information. It was the year "poofs & commies" became redundant in the world's intelligence activities.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:21 pm

Thank for that information. However it's not really relevant to the points I made above [and now below] in the now below quoted part.

zeuzzz wrote:Matt you have openly stated how
Matthew Ellard wrote: I couldn't give a rat's arse how other "blabber mouths"
and how they died.

Fair enough. If that is your position, you can at least stick to it, or you can at least clarify it now.

Does it annoy you that a 15 year old can program an OSINT issue into workable and functional code, and make a speech like this, openly exposing 'secret service' officials in his program to the world, in an open source fashion, simply via a youtube upload?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6W6UytaJqc
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:46 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Does it annoy you that a 15 year old can program an OSINT issue into workable and functional code, and make a speech like this, openly exposing 'secret service' officials in his program to the world, in an open source fashion, simply via a youtube upload?
Zeuzzz? This little nipper didn't actually say anything. Give it your best shot and try write down what you think he has achieved? :D

He has, in 2015, used a search engine to find people "who claimed they work on classified material" on the public internet. In 1939-1945 , GCHQ (Signal intelligence) broadcast thousands of fake signal to create "chatter". "Chatter" is when signals can't be decrypted but their volume may indicate an activity. It is a standard form of deception. You may remember this from the Brits faking of the D-Day landing beaches to trick the Germans.

(Gawdzilla knows all about this from the US signal intelligence "tricks" later in the Pacific war)
.

This little nipper would fail first year at Spy-school, because he has wasted resources looking at chatter with no actual goal as an end result. He has actually mixed up thousands of civilian bull-shirt artists on forums & blogs with maybe ten people who are real workers. He has created his own "haystack". The services probably love him for doing this.

Secondly, paper documents with the FFEO ( for five eyes only) stamp on the top, are not converted into any form of electronic format, because that would be incredibly stupid.

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:06 am

I totally agree with most of what you just said.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:38 am

If "Gawdzilla knows all about this" please invite him here to comment further. I would hate for this thread to be a dead end.
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Intelligence Services do "things"....."so what?"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:14 am

zeuzzz wrote:If "Gawdzilla knows all about this" please invite him here to comment further. I would hate for this thread to be a dead end.
Gawdzilla is a former US navy person, who chose to study real military history in depth at an academic level.

I would not torture Gawdzilla, by asking him to join this thread, about a book, you demand we read, but didn't read yourself. That would be a complete waste of his time, as you are indeed already wasting my time.

Try find one actual incident that you want to discuss, research it extensively, and then post something about it on the forum. Until then, this thread has no purpose.

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Re: Intelligence Services do "things"....."so what?"

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:14 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:If "Gawdzilla knows all about this" please invite him here to comment further. I would hate for this thread to be a dead end.
Gawdzilla is a former US navy person, who chose to study real military history in depth at an academic level.


As a co-developer of the open source side of the now TOR browser myself I would like to speak to him in this case; as it was originally a military/Navy based protocol for them to send messages that could not be traced to a fixed IP address. It would be an interesting discussion to have if he does indeed have the expertise you claim he does.

At some point in the past the navy figured out that the more people that use an onion based protocol the more anonymous their signals would become amongst the noise in the system, so they somewhat paradoxically made it open source for anyone else to use. At least that is my vague memory of how the onion networks were spawned.
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Re: Intelligence Services do "things"....."so what?"

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:38 pm

zeuzzz wrote: As a co-developer of the open source side of the now TOR browser myself I would like to speak to him in this case; as it was originally a military/Navy based protocol for them to send messages that could not be traced to a fixed IP address.
Stop speaking gobbledygook Zeuzzz.

Setting up untraceable messages is so 1980's. Setting up high volume messages to create an illusion of indicative chatter requires content and an illusion that actual addresses are believed to exist. That's the whole point.


The classic example for this is the USA broadcast, low-level "clear" chatter, containing the words "water shortage" and a location, during the Battle for Midway. The Yanks then read encrypted Japanese communications, using the Japanese encrypted word for that location suffering water shortages. "Bingo". That's how these games actually work. If you don't understand the games, you will never understand what the "system" is required to do.

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:53 pm

Matt I have no idea what you are talking about, I think you have missed my point completely and just gone off on a tangent. I will simply re-iterate what I just said above with a quote this time, and hopefully this time you will understand it, and not accuse me of spouting 'gobbledygook'.

https://pando.com/2014/07/16/tor-spooks/
Onion routing was like a hustler playing the three-card monte with your traffic: the guy trying to spy on you could watch it going under one card, but he never knew where it would come out.

The technology was funded by the Office of Naval Research and DARPA. Early development was spearheaded by Paul Syverson, Michael Reed and David Goldschlag — all military mathematicians and computer systems researchers working for the Naval Research Laboratory, sitting inside the massive Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling military base in Southeast Washington, D.C.


In general DARPA-net was originally created by the Navy and Naval research, as a method to create an information transference system that was for all intents and purpose indestructible; as even if one area and certain nodes were 'taken out' information would simply flow around it. It was largely kept military until Tim Berners Lee invented the http protocol and gave birth to the clear net, with various other additions that clearly distinguish it from onion routing, which is the internet we all use.

However the military has always tended to use onion routing (or 'the dark web') to anonymize and encrypt their content, on various levels. It has now however merged with open source, as the more people that use it the greater anonymity the people that use it have, leading to various forks of the original source code and various more public releases.

The military use it with much more sophisticated encryption than public users, however.

EDIT: Deleted double use of word
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:05 pm

zeuzzz wrote:The military use it with much more sophisticated encryption than public users, however.
Zeuzzz, the military and intelligence services have been encrypting electronic communications since before the First World War. (Room 40 at Admiralty.)
9780151786343.jpg


Secondly, the military and intelligence services don't use "the internet" for important communications, for a rather obvious reason, that has nothing to do with decryption. Can you think what that is? :lol:
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:10 pm

? Your point about Onion routing and DARPA is ?

Please stay on topic.
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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:15 pm

Zeuzzz wrote: Your point about Onion routing and DARPA is ?
I just wrote it out in clear English. You are simply too stupid to understand me.

Zeuzzz wrote:Please stay on topic.
The topic is about a book you haven't actually read, and can't mention one highlight from. Did you forget that? 8-)

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:23 pm

Well it's been a pleasure speaking to you Matt.

I would still like to chat to Gawdzilla if he is going to make an appearance here. As he does probably actually know about DARPA, onion routing, and other things, since you stated he is involved in the academic side of these kind of military issues.
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Does Zuezzzz have a point in this thread at all?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:35 pm

zeuzzz wrote: I would still like to chat to Gawdzilla if he is going to make an appearance here.
Gawdzilla did make an appearance here. He posted in another thread and left. He knows you are a complete waste of time. :D

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Re: The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government

Postby zeuzzz » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:44 pm

Well it's been a pleasure speaking to you Matt.
Always be you, unless you can be a unicorn; then be a unicorn.


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