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Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:43 am
by Gord

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:20 pm
by Poodle
Oh, she's good. Better looking than Dawkins, too.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:02 pm
by SEG
Poodle wrote:Oh, she's good. Better looking than Dawkins, too.

I saw this last year on an Australian news show called "The Project".

Absolutely she is good and better looking! Funny how she and a lot of biblical scholars don't now believe that Moses existed, but think that Jesus and Paul of the Bible existed. Rene Salm was telling me a few decades ago when he revealed that he didn't believe that Moses existed on forums he was frowned upon as being looney. Now it's the consensus view that Moses didn't exist.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:29 am
by Gord
That's been the consensus for decades. It was common knowledge before I went to university in the early 80s. When one of my university professors mentioned it, I was intrigued to find out more about it, but unfortunately we had a religious nutter in the classroom who stood up and started shouting. She left, but the discussion moved on to other topics anyways.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:35 am
by SEG
Gord wrote:That's been the consensus for decades. It was common knowledge before I went to university in the early 80s. When one of my university professors mentioned it, I was intrigued to find out more about it, but unfortunately we had a religious nutter in the classroom who stood up and started shouting. She left, but the discussion moved on to other topics anyways.

I've heard that uni converts a lot of peeps into atheists. What did you study Gord? No Moses sort of tips the bucket on the Ten Commandments, doesn't it?

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:53 am
by Gord
I studied sciences. Physics, then math, then computer science, then astronomy. Had to keep changing because I sucked at all of them!

I tried my best to be a Mennonite in high school, but I couldn't do it. I didn't know how to trick myself into believing without trustworthy evidence. I called myself an agnostic for a long time, but I was an atheist.

(That class with the religious nutter yelling was first year philosophy, though.)

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:48 pm
by Lausten
SEG wrote:
Poodle wrote:Oh, she's good. Better looking than Dawkins, too.

I saw this last year on an Australian news show called "The Project".

Absolutely she is good and better looking! Funny how she and a lot of biblical scholars don't now believe that Moses existed, but think that Jesus and Paul of the Bible existed. Rene Salm was telling me a few decades ago when he revealed that he didn't believe that Moses existed on forums he was frowned upon as being looney. Now it's the consensus view that Moses didn't exist.

Someone recently asked Richard Carrier how long he thought it would take for people to accept Jesus didn't exist, and he said, "changing the consensus on Moses took 20 or 30 years, so probably the same."

Also, the consensus on the existence of Jesus is just that, he existed. There is no consensus on where he was born, how he gained recognition, if he was literate, if he was trained or in anyway ordained, if he was accepted by his peers. It is weak on whether or not he was crucified. More important, the consensus is, the Jesus in the Bible is definitely not the Jesus that actually existed. There is no way to reconcile a specific personality or teachings or the events from the Bible, so there is nothing to square with reality anyway.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:45 pm
by Monster

She's like Dr. Robert M. Price, in the fact that she's an atheist who likes the Bible. Like me. :)

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:38 am
by SEG
Gord wrote:I studied sciences. Physics, then math, then computer science, then astronomy. Had to keep changing because I sucked at all of them!

I tried my best to be a Mennonite in high school, but I couldn't do it. I didn't know how to trick myself into believing without trustworthy evidence. I called myself an agnostic for a long time, but I was an atheist.

(That class with the religious nutter yelling was first year philosophy, though.)

Ach so! So you were a Rumspringa!
We had an interesting visit to an Amish couple's home for dinner as part of our holiday tour of the Eastern seaboard of the US only last year. Are they similar? I found they were nice people in a fashion, but also hypocrites and narrow minded. Question time afterwards was entertaining.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:45 am
by SEG
Monster wrote:

She's like Dr. Robert M. Price, in the fact that she's an atheist who likes the Bible. Like me. :)

I find it amusing but I don't actually like it. I've been told he likes going to church as well! :sick: Even the sermon on the mount sucks!

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:52 am
by SEG
Lausten wrote:More important, the consensus is, the Jesus in the Bible is definitely not the Jesus that actually existed. There is no way to reconcile a specific personality or teachings or the events from the Bible, so there is nothing to square with reality anyway.

That's true about nothing to square with reality. Would you say the same thing about Moses? "the Moses in the Bible is definitely not the Moses that actually existed."

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:46 am
by Gord
SEG wrote:
Gord wrote:I studied sciences. Physics, then math, then computer science, then astronomy. Had to keep changing because I sucked at all of them!

I tried my best to be a Mennonite in high school, but I couldn't do it. I didn't know how to trick myself into believing without trustworthy evidence. I called myself an agnostic for a long time, but I was an atheist.

(That class with the religious nutter yelling was first year philosophy, though.)

Ach so! So you were a Rumspringa!

No, I was just young and in love with a Mennonite girl. I never knew what my own religion was (we went to a church, but it was just the nearest one, not a particular denomination. And I was told that my family was kicked out of their previous church after I got a blood transfusion as an infant, so maybe we were JWs or something? That doesn't sound likely though. I can't trust any of my mothers stories, because they change every decade or so. And I have never been able to get a straight answer from my father. :roll:

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:18 pm
by Lausten
SEG wrote:
Lausten wrote:More important, the consensus is, the Jesus in the Bible is definitely not the Jesus that actually existed. There is no way to reconcile a specific personality or teachings or the events from the Bible, so there is nothing to square with reality anyway.

That's true about nothing to square with reality. Would you say the same thing about Moses? "the Moses in the Bible is definitely not the Moses that actually existed."

Yes definitely, but that's more based on archaeological evidence, as in, there isn't any. Jews weren't slaves as depicted in the Bible, they didn't build the pyramids, there is no evidence of a tribe wondering anywhere in the desert. There are multiple authors of the stories, but they were already harmonized once we got them, so we're still trying to figure out where they came from.

A big difference with Moses is you have Reformed Judaism, which doesn't care about the actual existence of the Biblical characters. They are open to new data and put the principles of inclusion and caring for people above the squabbles over myth vs fact.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:04 am
by Gord
Feck, I forgot the end bracket in my last post!

Here it is now.

)

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:16 am
by SEG
Lausten wrote:
SEG wrote:
Lausten wrote:More important, the consensus is, the Jesus in the Bible is definitely not the Jesus that actually existed. There is no way to reconcile a specific personality or teachings or the events from the Bible, so there is nothing to square with reality anyway.

That's true about nothing to square with reality. Would you say the same thing about Moses? "the Moses in the Bible is definitely not the Moses that actually existed."

Yes definitely, but that's more based on archaeological evidence, as in, there isn't any. Jews weren't slaves as depicted in the Bible, they didn't build the pyramids, there is no evidence of a tribe wondering anywhere in the desert. There are multiple authors of the stories, but they were already harmonized once we got them, so we're still trying to figure out where they came from.

A big difference with Moses is you have Reformed Judaism, which doesn't care about the actual existence of the Biblical characters. They are open to new data and put the principles of inclusion and caring for people above the squabbles over myth vs fact.

Ok fine, so just to be clear, you don't think that Moses actually existed and don't think that the Jesus of the Bible was an historical person that founded Christianity?

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:28 pm
by Austin Harper
SEG wrote:
Monster wrote:She's like Dr. Robert M. Price, in the fact that she's an atheist who likes the Bible. Like me. :)

I find it amusing but I don't actually like it. I've been told he likes going to church as well! :sick:

He has recently said that he no longer attends services.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:04 pm
by SEG
Austin Harper wrote:
SEG wrote:
Monster wrote:She's like Dr. Robert M. Price, in the fact that she's an atheist who likes the Bible. Like me. :)

I find it amusing but I don't actually like it. I've been told he likes going to church as well! :sick:

He has recently said that he no longer attends services.

That's not hard to believe, his failing health and age might have something to do with that. He also used to describe himself as a Christian Atheist

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:09 pm
by Lausten
SEG wrote:Ok fine, so just to be clear, you don't think that Moses actually existed and don't think that the Jesus of the Bible was an historical person that founded Christianity?

Yep, thought that was pretty clear.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:50 pm
by Poodle
I didn't think Jesus was credited with the founding of christianity by anyone. Paul, certainly, but not Jesus.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:12 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Not to draw too fine a line, but "Did Moses exist as a real person" is problematic. He could easily have existed....lots of people have existed. but like God: did Moses exist "as described in the bible"? Meaning did he lead his people out of the desert, walk up a mountain and talk to God, see a burning bush, and come back down with 15 no, 10 commandments? I can see walking around in the desert, walking up a mountain, talking to yourself, burning a bush, and even preaching about moral precepts. Is that close enough?

Still....even if god does exist. I'm against him.

Same with Jeebus. I thought it was "accepted" that several people made the rounds as self proclaimed prophets of God. some believers, some hucksters. The Biblical Jesus at best just an amalgam? Now....a single person actually turning water to wine? Pulease.

Still....even if god does exist. I'm against him.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:37 pm
by Poodle
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... Now....a single person actually turning water to wine? Pulease..

But, bobbo - you do just that all the time, with the help of a few yeast cells.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:46 pm
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
Nice call....but its the sugar that is turned into alcohol that mixes with the grape juice, et voilet: wine. but I appreciate your point. It wasn't the turning as much as the volume that was also produced?

Mine is aging away. Using my flip-top bottles I sometimes grab a wine bottle instead of a beer bottle. Its weird. While all bottled from the same bucket, with no additional priming, the carbonation of each bottle varies greatly. I like the mild touch of carbonation. Too little and the wine is bit like sugar water. Too much and its a foamy mess. We strive for perfection.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:42 am
by SEG
Poodle wrote:I didn't think Jesus was credited with the founding of christianity by anyone. Paul, certainly, but not Jesus.

What makes you certain it was Paul? It could have started with no individual founder. Just like the Cargo Cults or the Luddites.





















or Ned Lud

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:41 am
by bobbo_the_Pragmatist
I'd think the founding of the Catholic church is pretty well nailed down? Paul...St Augustine...Council of Antioch (?) and so forth? Founding of the Christian Faith maybe a bit more vague?? I don't know that history....can never stand reading the mumbo jumbo but I assume there were many competing sects/versions of the faith that might provide some interest....as in all the written material that was collected to make the first bible: the what and the whys of what was included and excluded and how interpretation of same has changed over the years? EG: only male priests. You can do that if you want to, not what Jesus said, but eventually you get an irrelevant self serving cult of pedophiles.

.............and Jesus cries.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:58 am
by Poodle
SEG wrote:
Poodle wrote:I didn't think Jesus was credited with the founding of christianity by anyone. Paul, certainly, but not Jesus.

What makes you certain it was Paul? It could have started with no individual founder. Just like the Cargo Cults or the Luddites.

Yes, it could have. But I tend to go for the simplest explanation for most phenomena, and the Roman political and military machine having over-extended itself, withdrawing to shorter and therefore more controllable borders, and leaving behind an all-encompassing (catholic, get it?) social structure to keep the external empire going seems eminently realistic to me. At that time, a religion acceptable across many differing societal groupings would have been the only way to meet that requirement, and it needed a proselytising figurehead to put it into place. He (probably) would have had a name. Let's call him Paul, as that's what the bible calls the bloke who did exactly what I've described.

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:27 am
by SEG
Poodle wrote:I didn't think Jesus was credited with the founding of christianity by anyone. Paul, certainly, but not Jesus.

SEG wrote:What makes you certain it was Paul? It could have started with no individual founder. Just like the Cargo Cults or the Luddites.

Poodle wrote:Yes, it could have. But I tend to go for the simplest explanation for most phenomena, and the Roman political and military machine having over-extended itself, withdrawing to shorter and therefore more controllable borders, and leaving behind an all-encompassing (catholic, get it?) social structure to keep the external empire going seems eminently realistic to me. At that time, a religion acceptable across many differing societal groupings would have been the only way to meet that requirement, and it needed a proselytising figurehead to put it into place. He (probably) would have had a name. Let's call him Paul, as that's what the bible calls the bloke who did exactly what I've described.

All the BS stories in the Bible about what he supposedly did, like escape from a stoning (who does that?), escaping from jail, then getting shiprwecked, persecuting Christians, even murdering them (except the main ringleaders, the supposed disciples of Jesus), being struck blind on the road to Morocco with Bing, etc make me skeptical.

Then the stories of him as a penniless preacher waltzing into new towns converting masses of people instantly are pretty suss too. I think it was a few people calling themselves Paul that wrote the epistles and maybe also the book of Hebrews. It seems that they are not written as historical accounts of a real person to me, but who knows for sure?

Re: Francesca Stavrakopoulou on the Bible

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:44 pm
by Poodle
Well, I agree with that. But my belief (and that's all it can ever be) is that, for Paul, you can read 'the over-extended Roman Empire setting up a very effective method of colonial control which doesn't need an army'. It's still around.