Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

General discussion on the subject of religion, losing religion, and having no religion to lose...
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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:03 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:How did Jesus do that? Preaching and directing in public as he did?
They came to him after he became known. If he really existed, which is doubtful.

Even scriptures show more than one Jesus so I think the Gnostics were correct in showing Jesus as just an archetypal good man.

I think we were the original Chrestians and they just call him Jesus the Good, and his God, God the Good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... At-PAkgqls

Christianity screwed up that decent way of thinking for their stupid supernatural ways.

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DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:09 am

Poodle wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:[... Jesus beat us to that conclusion by 2,000 years ...
Yep - I too would like to hear what your source is for that, GB.
I think the bible is about the only place that Jesus is ever quoted from. Mind you I have not read everything.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-6.htm

I do not think the ancients were as dumb as we think.

The way I read scriptures is not the literal way and I see Jesus finding his internal guide, so to speak, that Freud and Jung rediscovered in all of us 2,000 years later, --- which they called our Father Complex.

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DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:17 am

GB...that is an excellent reference. But it does not say to "exclusively" pray in private. Now.....how many passages can we find with Jesus saying what people should DO IN PUBLIC? Just a quickie: didn't he say to leave parents/family and to follow him?........whatever. I suppose.......to preach in PUBLIC to pray in private is only slightly ironic/hypocritical/actions speaking louder than words........but it also I think just reflects the reality that if religion were done in private without the HAMMER OF POLITICS FORCING PEOPLE TO SUBMIT.....all such religions would be short lived.

So...Jesus had a good idea there........he should have developed it more.......
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:00 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:GB...that is an excellent reference. But it does not say to "exclusively" pray in private. Now.....how many passages can we find with Jesus saying what people should DO IN PUBLIC? Just a quickie: didn't he say to leave parents/family and to follow him?........whatever. I suppose.......to preach in PUBLIC to pray in private is only slightly ironic/hypocritical/actions speaking louder than words........but it also I think just reflects the reality that if religion were done in private without the HAMMER OF POLITICS FORCING PEOPLE TO SUBMIT.....all such religions would be short lived.

So...Jesus had a good idea there........he should have developed it more.......
It is to us to do so.

You do know that some passages were just added to make us think. Right?

Like the passage that says to hate your mother and father.
It was inserted much later, apparently, just to add to the discussions and debates that older and wiser Christians were doing when they were God seekers and not the G D idol worshipers that they are today.
It was inserted to counter the love your mother and father scriptures.

The bible can be made to say almost anything. It is just a consolidation of many old religious wisdoms and tradition.

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:46 pm

Just for grins:
Gnostic Bishop wrote: It is to us to do so.
Totally open ended, ambiguous, fatally vague: "To do what?"


Gnostic Bishop wrote: You do know that some passages were just added to make us think. Right?
Uhhhh...no, I did not/do not know that. The whole point of the bibbel/religion is to have people NOT THINK. Its what "mystery" faith/submission is all about. Whatever you might find that is "thoughtful" is an artifact.



Gnostic Bishop wrote: Like the passage that says to hate your mother and father.
It was inserted much later, apparently, just to add to the discussions and debates that older and wiser Christians were doing when they were God seekers and not the G D idol worshipers that they are today.
It was inserted to counter the love your mother and father scriptures.
This notion may just be poorly phrased but "nothing" was "inserted ... later" in the bibbel. I'm no expert....but the Council of Rome around 400AD reviewed many relevant sources and decided which ones to include and exclude. Some modifications thereafter including the Reformation and so forth, but I assume the "leave your family" ((not "hate")) was in the first text?


Gnostic Bishop wrote: The bible can be made to say almost anything.
A quibble.....it DOES SAY almost everything. Spouting contradictory both sides of any moral question half the time its not making lists of things that were irrelevant at the time.[/quote]


Gnostic Bishop wrote: It is just a consolidation of many old religious wisdoms and tradition.
More quibble: I could find wisdom in the bible if it did not immediately or later on contradict itself. Giving pro and cons answers to questions is not wisdom but rather only identifying the issues. Wisdom comes from how individuals form those conclusions having zero to do with the bible as it offers nothing but confirmation for what you independently decide....the result requiring everyone to make up their own actual rules of conduct also provides no tradition at all except for what is violated in practice.

Religion is BS......even fair evaluations of it.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:42 pm

"It is to us to do so."

To promote the notion of praying in private. IOW, keep religions out of the political landscape so as to help keep the peace.

I agree with you last except for the religions that promote knowledge and wisdom instead of some invisible guy in the sky.

If you want to quibble about what was put into scriptures Bart Erhman has a book called Forged where he shows many inserted or altered passages. He has a number of You Tubes on the net.

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DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:03 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote: If you want to quibble about what was put into scriptures Bart Erhman has a book called Forged where he shows many inserted or altered passages. He has a number of You Tubes on the net.
Ummm....not that it matters "that" much, but you started that quibble as if it made a difference.

the bible believed in and followed by those who say they do is what it is. How does it matter one iota when some particular passage was put in or modified? I'll wait for your considered response.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Lausten » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:10 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:GB...that is an excellent reference. But it does not say to "exclusively" pray in private. Now.....how many passages can we find with Jesus saying what people should DO IN PUBLIC? Just a quickie: didn't he say to leave parents/family and to follow him?........whatever. I suppose.......to preach in PUBLIC to pray in private is only slightly ironic/hypocritical/actions speaking louder than words........but it also I think just reflects the reality that if religion were done in private without the HAMMER OF POLITICS FORCING PEOPLE TO SUBMIT.....all such religions would be short lived.

So...Jesus had a good idea there........he should have developed it more.......
It is to us to do so.

You do know that some passages were just added to make us think. Right?

Like the passage that says to hate your mother and father.
It was inserted much later, apparently, just to add to the discussions and debates that older and wiser Christians were doing when they were God seekers and not the G D idol worshipers that they are today.
It was inserted to counter the love your mother and father scriptures.

The bible can be made to say almost anything. It is just a consolidation of many old religious wisdoms and tradition.

Regards
DL
That's an interesting argument. (Well, "interesting" is not a good word choice, because I'm about to destroy the argument). You're saying that a verse was inserted later to "make us think"? Who made that decision? What random monk accidentally mis-copied something as a way to "make us think"? Did you read "Forged", or just the back cover? And, "inserted to counter the love your mother and father"? Where did that come from. What motion at what council do you have documentation for that says one of the commandments needed to be countered? And if you were going to pick a commandment to counter, why that one?

And you might want to look up the word "consolidation". Maybe you meant "conglomeration". I really tire of this idea that there is some hidden wisdom in the Bible. It's quite obvious what's there most of the time, and with better translations, it's becoming more obvious. They did not have sophisticated philosophy at the time. There are a couple leaps in thought that are documented, but they aren't rapid and they aren't all that unique in the world.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:33 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote: If you want to quibble about what was put into scriptures Bart Erhman has a book called Forged where he shows many inserted or altered passages. He has a number of You Tubes on the net.
Ummm....not that it matters "that" much, but you started that quibble as if it made a difference.

the bible believed in and followed by those who say they do is what it is. How does it matter one iota when some particular passage was put in or modified? I'll wait for your considered response.
It matters because we have to dither out why it was done. Not just ignore it like some do.

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Gnostic Bishop » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:36 pm

Lausten wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:GB...that is an excellent reference. But it does not say to "exclusively" pray in private. Now.....how many passages can we find with Jesus saying what people should DO IN PUBLIC? Just a quickie: didn't he say to leave parents/family and to follow him?........whatever. I suppose.......to preach in PUBLIC to pray in private is only slightly ironic/hypocritical/actions speaking louder than words........but it also I think just reflects the reality that if religion were done in private without the HAMMER OF POLITICS FORCING PEOPLE TO SUBMIT.....all such religions would be short lived.

So...Jesus had a good idea there........he should have developed it more.......
It is to us to do so.

You do know that some passages were just added to make us think. Right?

Like the passage that says to hate your mother and father.
It was inserted much later, apparently, just to add to the discussions and debates that older and wiser Christians were doing when they were God seekers and not the G D idol worshipers that they are today.
It was inserted to counter the love your mother and father scriptures.

The bible can be made to say almost anything. It is just a consolidation of many old religious wisdoms and tradition.

Regards
DL
That's an interesting argument. (Well, "interesting" is not a good word choice, because I'm about to destroy the argument). You're saying that a verse was inserted later to "make us think"? Who made that decision? What random monk accidentally mis-copied something as a way to "make us think"? Did you read "Forged", or just the back cover? And, "inserted to counter the love your mother and father"? Where did that come from. What motion at what council do you have documentation for that says one of the commandments needed to be countered? And if you were going to pick a commandment to counter, why that one?

And you might want to look up the word "consolidation". Maybe you meant "conglomeration". I really tire of this idea that there is some hidden wisdom in the Bible. It's quite obvious what's there most of the time, and with better translations, it's becoming more obvious. They did not have sophisticated philosophy at the time. There are a couple leaps in thought that are documented, but they aren't rapid and they aren't all that unique in the world.
Yes I have read Forged.

Thanks for the chat.

Regards
DL

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:47 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote: If you want to quibble about what was put into scriptures Bart Erhman has a book called Forged where he shows many inserted or altered passages. He has a number of You Tubes on the net.
Ummm....not that it matters "that" much, but you started that quibble as if it made a difference.

the bible believed in and followed by those who say they do is what it is. How does it matter one iota when some particular passage was put in or modified? I'll wait for your considered response.
It matters because we have to dither out why it was done. Not just ignore it like some do.

Regards
DL
The basic tenet of Christian/Abrahamic belief is to accept the bible as written which basically means the bible you have chosen to use. "Why" it was done is to question/challenge god directly...verboten in most sects/cults. If you have the mind to question why it was done, you probably aren't reading/adhering to the bible/religion at all.

Choose which horse you want to ride.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by KevinLevites » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:27 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:GB...that is an excellent reference. But it does not say to "exclusively" pray in private. Now.....how many passages can we find with Jesus saying what people should DO IN PUBLIC? Just a quickie: didn't he say to leave parents/family and to follow him?........whatever. I suppose.......to preach in PUBLIC to pray in private is only slightly ironic/hypocritical/actions speaking louder than words........but it also I think just reflects the reality that if religion were done in private without the HAMMER OF POLITICS FORCING PEOPLE TO SUBMIT.....all such religions would be short lived.

So...Jesus had a good idea there........he should have developed it more.......
It is to us to do so.

You do know that some passages were just added to make us think. Right?

Like the passage that says to hate your mother and father.
It was inserted much later, apparently, just to add to the discussions and debates that older and wiser Christians were doing when they were God seekers and not the G D idol worshipers that they are today.
It was inserted to counter the love your mother and father scriptures.

The bible can be made to say almost anything. It is just a consolidation of many old religious wisdoms and tradition.

Regards
DL
Yes, the bible can be made to say almost anything, but it could be worse.

It could have been written by lawyers.

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:57 pm

The difference being lawyers don't claim eternal truth on penalty of losing your soul..........most often.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by KevinLevites » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:The difference being lawyers don't claim eternal truth on penalty of losing your soul..........most often.
You mean that lawyers have souls?

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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:59 am

Indeed they do. Thats why in civilized countries lawyers are buried an extra 3 feet down, because deep down, they are nice guys.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by KevinLevites » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Indeed they do. Thats why in civilized countries lawyers are buried an extra 3 feet down, because deep down, they are nice guys.
I thought this was a preventative measure to keep their graves' from getting violated.