How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

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How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Mon May 14, 2018 12:47 pm

I wrote this thread on another forum which provoked a bit of discussion, so I thought I would give it a whirl here. Are there many Christians active here that would like to give any response?

I started researching how the disciples of Jesus died, but I found out this astonishing fact - THERE IS NO SECULAR EVIDENCE OF THEM AT ALL!

That's right, there is nothing mentioning them outside of the Bible and religious texts. If you go to the earliest Christian writings, Paul doesn't mention them either, he calls them "apostles". Strangely, none of Jesus's brothers or sisters become apostles. Even stranger, the deaths of Jesus's parents don't get a mention in the Bible and neither do his siblings. It's like these characters were invented for the sole purpose of evangelising Jesus.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 14, 2018 1:18 pm

Food poisoning. That last supper was at a dicey joint.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Monster » Mon May 14, 2018 1:57 pm

SEG wrote:I wrote this thread on another forum which provoked a bit of discussion, so I thought I would give it a whirl here. Are there many Christians active here that would like to give any response?

I started researching how the disciples of Jesus died, but I found out this astonishing fact - THERE IS NO SECULAR EVIDENCE OF THEM AT ALL!

That's right, there is nothing mentioning them outside of the Bible and religious texts. If you go to the earliest Christian writings, Paul doesn't mention them either, he calls them "apostles". Strangely, none of Jesus's brothers or sisters become apostles. Even stranger, the deaths of Jesus's parents don't get a mention in the Bible and neither do his siblings. It's like these characters were invented for the sole purpose of evangelising Jesus.

I thought the traditional belief of the deaths of the disciples was through martyrdom. But I'm not referring to a non-religious source for that knowledge.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon May 14, 2018 4:09 pm

Who says they are dead?
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon May 14, 2018 4:20 pm

Most of them went back to their home planet.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 14, 2018 4:21 pm

...but which isn't near Kolob...
.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 pm

I'll extend my favorite meme here and point out that none of them every converted a scribe or a person who could hire a scribe, so we don't even have second hand reports of Jesus's words. This from the SON OF GOD and the MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE EVER SENT TO THE HUMAN RACE.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon May 14, 2018 5:15 pm

Ah, but it was written on the heart.



Seems of all his misbegotten children, only the Aztecs had a real thirst for knowledge. :scratch:
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 14, 2018 5:20 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Ah, but it was written on the heart.



Seems of all his misbegotten children, only the Aztecs had a real thirst for knowledge. :scratch:

I've done similar, but it was just business, not personal.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Mon May 14, 2018 9:59 pm

Monster wrote:
SEG wrote:I thought the traditional belief of the deaths of the disciples was through martyrdom. But I'm not referring to a non-religious source for that knowledge.

Yep. That "fact" of martyrdom leads to what they think is a rock solid argument - why would they die for a lie? But their isn't any secular evidence of the deaths of any of 'em. Btw, do Christians contribute to this forum?
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Mon May 14, 2018 10:11 pm

We have a few Christers, mostly fringers. As to why someone would die for a lie, all they had to do was delude themselves into thinking it was THE TRUTH.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Monster » Tue May 15, 2018 12:44 am

SEG wrote:
Monster wrote:
SEG wrote:I thought the traditional belief of the deaths of the disciples was through martyrdom. But I'm not referring to a non-religious source for that knowledge.

Yep. That "fact" of martyrdom leads to what they think is a rock solid argument - why would they die for a lie? But their isn't any secular evidence of the deaths of any of 'em. Btw, do Christians contribute to this forum?

People die for lies all the time.

Christians rarely post on this forum. When they proselytize, they typically are ridiculed, and thus, leave.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue May 15, 2018 12:53 am

Monster wrote:Christians rarely post on this forum. When they proselytize, they typically are ridiculed, and thus, leave.

Years ago, I attended 4-5 Religious forums. As an ant-theist I was challenged in my views and opinions. Can't say I was ridiculed.....just disagreed with most heartily.

"Why don't you go away if you disagree with what we think" was about the strongest rebuke I experienced. What I got though was BANNED by management for being too disruptive and upsetting to the membership.

Most people, most of the time, REALLY don't like being disagreed with almost no matter how politely you try to do it. Add an occasional dash of derision.......and whats amusing for the Religious Types is their very own catechism: who bans people to Hell for eternity for not believing what they told and not taking pure BS because they are told to do so?

Who would that be???.............and its not:

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Aztexan » Tue May 15, 2018 1:27 am

Bobbo wrote:
ant-theist


160205110507-frinkiac-overlords-large-169.jpg
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Io » Tue May 15, 2018 1:56 am

We knew then, that we were being changed... and made part of their world.
We didn't know for what purpose... but we knew we would be told.

Amen.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Tue May 15, 2018 2:50 am

Aztexan wrote:Bobbo wrote:
ant-theist


160205110507-frinkiac-overlords-large-169.jpg

Image
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Tue May 15, 2018 4:39 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:who bans people to Hell for eternity for not believing what they told and not taking pure BS because they are told to do so?

Who would that be???.............and its not:


Lol! Love that skit! What is even more annoying about that is when they say that their god doesn't send you to hell for not believing, you conveniently send yourself there. Apparently choosing not to believe has imaginary consequences...
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gord » Tue May 15, 2018 2:01 pm

SEG wrote:...Paul doesn't mention them either, he calls them "apostles"....

If he doesn't mention them, how does he call them anything? :befuddled:

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Lausten » Tue May 15, 2018 5:35 pm

Gord wrote:
SEG wrote:...Paul doesn't mention them either, he calls them "apostles"....

If he doesn't mention them, how does he call them anything? :befuddled:

my head a-splode

There's "James, brother of the Lord" in Galatians, which is most likely written by Paul. The "brother" part is disputed, some saying it shows Jesus had a family, others saying it meant the kind of brother as in brotherhood. Paul also confronts Peter in Galatians. SEG is correct that there is nothing by Paul on Mary or any other family, and nothing about Jesus' birth or death. There's isn't even anything like him going to lunch or sitting by a tree. Acts has him at the crucifixion, but that is not a trustworthy source for history.

There's a whole book refuting the traditions of martyrdom. "The Myth of Christian Persecution" Candida Moss. Search for that and "Reasonable Doubts" for a podcast interview.
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Tue May 15, 2018 10:02 pm

Gord wrote:
SEG wrote:...Paul doesn't mention them either, he calls them "apostles"....

If he doesn't mention them, how does he call them anything? :befuddled:

my head a-splode

Good pick up, but I was referring to the word "disciples". He NEVER mentions this word, and I find it strange as he is supposed to be the earliest source. The Gospels rarely mention it the other way around.
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Tue May 15, 2018 11:57 pm

Lausten wrote:There's "James, brother of the Lord" in Galatians, which is most likely written by Paul. The "brother" part is disputed, some saying it shows Jesus had a family, others saying it meant the kind of brother as in brotherhood.

Yes, volumes has been written about this, Paul never makes a distinction between being a sibling or a cultic brother as in “Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.” (1Cor 15:6)

Paul also confronts Peter in Galatians. SEG is correct that there is nothing by Paul on Mary or any other family, and nothing about Jesus' birth or death. There's isn't even anything like him going to lunch or sitting by a tree.

Yes Lausten, and Paul never is specific about any physical location or dates. It's never set in an earthly setting.

There's a whole book refuting the traditions of martyrdom. "The Myth of Christian Persecution" Candida Moss. Search for that and "Reasonable Doubts" for a podcast interview.


Candida Moss is a respected (and attractive) professor and teaches at Department of Theology and Religion at University of Birmingham. She debunks the myth that Christians were continually persecuted and constantly thrown to the lions as martyrs. I haven't seen any scholarship asserting that Christians were forced to constantly renounce their faith. If they were, I would like to see how many actually renounced, preferring life over death. Christianity strangely didn't record any of THAT!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gord » Wed May 16, 2018 4:56 pm

SEG wrote:Candida Moss is a[n] ... attractive ... professor....

Yeah but she sounds like a yeast infection.

I doubt either of those thing would affect her work, however. :mrgreen:
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Wed May 16, 2018 9:04 pm

Hahahar! You're not allowed to say that!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm

She sounds like a fun gal.
.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gord » Thu May 17, 2018 2:47 am

Oh I say lots of stuff....
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Thu May 17, 2018 4:33 am

You would think that Paul might have given us a run down about what happened to the 12 after the "big event". Especially after he banged on so much after Jeebus got nailed up. After the main show, they all just disappeared. Maybe the "Sons of Thunder", James and John, went back to their real daddy, Zeus?

Wait, I just read this on an incredible site, Christianity.com:

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE TWELVE APOSTLES?
KEN CURTIS, PH.D.
Whatever Happened to the Twelve Apostles?
They were not the kind of group you might have expected Jesus to send forth on his mission to reach the world. There was nothing special or spectacular about them. The twelve apostles were just ordinary working men. But Jesus formed them into the backbone of the church and gave them the most extraordinary task imaginable: calling the entire world, including the mightiest empire ever known, to repentance and faith in the risen Christ. You can be sure that any educated, first-century Roman citizen would have laughed at any prediction that within three centuries the Christian faith would be the official faith of the empire.

Many wonder how the 12 apostles died, but The New Testament tells of the fate of only two of the apostles: Judas, who betrayed Jesus and then went out and hanged himself, and James the son of Zebedee, who was executed by Herod about 44 AD (Acts 12:2). Read how each of the apostles spread out to minister and evangelize and how many of the apostles died for their faith.

Into All the World
Reports and legends abound and they are not always reliable, but it is safe to say that the apostles went far and wide as heralds of the message of the risen Christ. An early legend says they cast lots and divided up the world to determine who would go where, so all could hear about Jesus. They suffered greatly for their faith and in most cases met violent deaths on account of their bold witness.

Peter and Paul
Both martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified, upside down at his request, since he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

Andrew
went to the "land of the man-eaters," in what is now the Soviet Union. Christians there claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas
was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.

Philip
possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew
the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew
had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James
the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot
so the story goes, ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais
was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John
is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil at Rome.


This MUST be true, as the author has a Phd!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby psychiatry is a scam » Thu May 17, 2018 6:42 am

secular - Lucius Aurelius Eugenianus - The Far Arena , by Richard Ben Sapir
chapter xxx , Lucius Aurelius Eugenianus knew the apostle Peter and how he died .

interesting side note , chapter xxv - modern kitchen knife was one of the best designed short swords I have ever seen.
Last edited by psychiatry is a scam on Thu May 17, 2018 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby Gord » Thu May 17, 2018 7:18 am

psychiatry is a scam wrote:chapter xxx , Lucius knew Peter and how he died .

Harry Potter reference?
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
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Re: How Did The Disciples of Jesus Die?

Postby SEG » Thu May 17, 2018 2:09 pm

psychiatry is a scam wrote:secular - Lucius Aurelius Eugenianus - The Far Arena , by Richard Ben Sapir
chapter xxx , Lucius Aurelius Eugenianus knew the apostle Peter and how he died .

interesting side note , chapter xxv - modern kitchen knife was one of the best designed short swords I have ever seen.

Lol! That's pretty clever!
“There are no known non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any historian or other writer of the time during and shortly after Jesus's purported advent.” His so-called life was a farce.


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