Lair of Kraken Monster found

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Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby The Sea is Mine » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:33 am

Perhaps some of these beasts survived till ancient or colonial times.

yahoo story

http://news.yahoo.com/lair-ancient-krak ... 04288.html
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Monster » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:04 pm

I thought the kraken was a sea creature of the ancient Greek religion. In other words, it didn't exist. If some ancient huge cephalopod was discovered, it's by default, not the kraken.
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Austin Harper » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:36 pm

The Kraken was, in fact, a Northern European invention, coming from a Germanic root. The subject was covered pretty well in Junior Skeptic #40 (in Skeptic vol. 16 no. 3).

But you are correct, a 200-million-year-old cephalopod is not a Kraken. Krakens supposedly lived off the shores of modern-day Norway, and are only referenced as far back as ca. 1000 CE.
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby The Sea is Mine » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:44 pm

Monster wrote:I thought the kraken was a sea creature of the ancient Greek religion. In other words, it didn't exist. If some ancient huge cephalopod was discovered, it's by default, not the kraken.



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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Austin Harper » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:53 pm

The Sea is Mine wrote:A Kraken is a Kraken is a Kraken

All descriptions of Krakens seem to be descriptions of giant cephalopods.
That doesn't mean all giant cephalopods are Krakens.
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Monster » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:16 pm

The Sea is Mine wrote:
Monster wrote:I thought the kraken was a sea creature of the ancient Greek religion. In other words, it didn't exist. If some ancient huge cephalopod was discovered, it's by default, not the kraken.



A Kraken is a Kraken is a Kraken

A kraken is a mythological creature. A real creature that is now extinct, is by default, not a kraken.
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:03 pm

Monster wrote:
The Sea is Mine wrote:
Monster wrote:I thought the kraken was a sea creature of the ancient Greek religion. In other words, it didn't exist. If some ancient huge cephalopod was discovered, it's by default, not the kraken.



A Kraken is a Kraken is a Kraken

A kraken is a mythological creature. A real creature that is now extinct, is by default, not a kraken.

Maybe they misidentified a Georgia Kracker?
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:13 pm

A giant ancestor of modern day cephalopods might have existed till the age of the writers of Greek mythology. Some of them might have survived in the depths of oceans in later ages too. Why discard the O.P. altogether? Is it necessary that some fossil remnants of the soft-bodied animal must be found for our verification?

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:54 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:A giant ancestor of modern day cephalopods might have existed till the age of the writers of Greek mythology. Some of them might have survived in the depths of oceans in later ages too. Why discard the O.P. altogether? Is it necessary that some fossil remnants of the soft-bodied animal must be found for our verification?

Stretching it a bit, aren't you?
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Poodle » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:38 pm

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:A giant ancestor of modern day cephalopods might have existed till the age of the writers of Greek mythology. Some of them might have survived in the depths of oceans in later ages too. Why discard the O.P. altogether? Is it necessary that some fossil remnants of the soft-bodied animal must be found for our verification?


Yes, it is. The "soft-bodied therefore no fossils" bit is the real myth. A squid-like animal of that size and capable of doing that much destruction would have had one hell of a beak, not to mention its sucker-claws or its 10-metre pen, all of which would fossilise quite readily. No such evidence has ever been found which outsizes the Colossal Squid which survives today.

Even the soft tissues can survive in fossil form ...

http://louisvillefossils.blogspot.com/2010/09/jurassic-period-acanthoteuthis.html

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Nabarun Ghoshal » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:21 am

Poodle wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Is it necessary that some fossil remnants of the soft-bodied animal must be found for our verification?


Yes, it is.


If no fossils of Poodle is discovered in later times, should our descendants accept that there were no Poodle?

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:01 am

Nabarun Ghoshal wrote:
Poodle wrote:
Nabarun Ghoshal wrote: Is it necessary that some fossil remnants of the soft-bodied animal must be found for our verification?


Yes, it is.


If no fossils of Poodle is discovered in later times, should our descendants accept that there were no Poodle?

What other means of determining Poodle actually exists would there be in this scenario?
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:01 am

How many fossils are there of marine animals that lived from, say, 1,000,000 years ago to, say, 10,000 years ago?
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Major Malfunction » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:21 am

Mythical isn't the word. That squid would make legendary grilled salt & pepper calamari!
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby bigtim » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:24 am

Major Malfunction wrote:Mythical isn't the word. That squid would make legendary grilled salt & pepper calamari!


man, now my mouth is watering... okay, I got my spear where is the damned thing?
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Gord » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:43 am

bigtim wrote:
Major Malfunction wrote:Mythical isn't the word. That squid would make legendary grilled salt & pepper calamari!


man, now my mouth is watering... okay, I got my spear where is the damned thing?

In your head.

(The kraken, that is. I hope the spear isn't in your head.)
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Poodle » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:39 am

OlegTheBatty wrote:How many fossils are there of marine animals that lived from, say, 1,000,000 years ago to, say, 10,000 years ago?


The (arbitrary) age of the youngest fossils is 10,000 years - a figure plucked out of thin air by palaeontologists. Deposits of that age, in general, would not be fully stabilised and it would be difficult to extract fossil remains. However, the remains are still in there, waiting patiently to be petrified - a fact taken advantage of by archaeologists who don't have the patience to wait another 990,000 years. Middens containing piles of shells have been found by those people, and they must count as being in the "pre-fossil" stage.

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:53 am

Poodle wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:How many fossils are there of marine animals that lived from, say, 1,000,000 years ago to, say, 10,000 years ago?


The (arbitrary) age of the youngest fossils is 10,000 years - a figure plucked out of thin air by palaeontologists. Deposits of that age, in general, would not be fully stabilised and it would be difficult to extract fossil remains. However, the remains are still in there, waiting patiently to be petrified - a fact taken advantage of by archaeologists who don't have the patience to wait another 990,000 years. Middens containing piles of shells have been found by those people, and they must count as being in the "pre-fossil" stage.

Only a specimen which had washed up on shore and been preserved in such a midden would be discoverable. The point I'm making is that sea-floor fossils that young would still be sea-floor fossils. They would not likely be in places where they could be discovered, so looking for them in places where they would not likely be discovered does not provide sufficient evidence of absence to declare absence.
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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Poodle » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:09 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
Poodle wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:How many fossils are there of marine animals that lived from, say, 1,000,000 years ago to, say, 10,000 years ago?


The (arbitrary) age of the youngest fossils is 10,000 years - a figure plucked out of thin air by palaeontologists. Deposits of that age, in general, would not be fully stabilised and it would be difficult to extract fossil remains. However, the remains are still in there, waiting patiently to be petrified - a fact taken advantage of by archaeologists who don't have the patience to wait another 990,000 years. Middens containing piles of shells have been found by those people, and they must count as being in the "pre-fossil" stage.

Only a specimen which had washed up on shore and been preserved in such a midden would be discoverable. The point I'm making is that sea-floor fossils that young would still be sea-floor fossils. They would not likely be in places where they could be discovered, so looking for them in places where they would not likely be discovered does not provide sufficient evidence of absence to declare absence.


I can't argue with that. And it does make it pretty unlikely that we'll be discovering kraken fossils very soon. What I'm saying is that until we do find such fossil evidence, there is no reason to regard the kraken as anything other than mythological. Looking for a Higgs boson is fine, as it is predicted by theory - but all we have for the kraken is a garbled set of folk tales.

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby OlegTheBatty » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:25 pm

Poodle wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
Poodle wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:How many fossils are there of marine animals that lived from, say, 1,000,000 years ago to, say, 10,000 years ago?


The (arbitrary) age of the youngest fossils is 10,000 years - a figure plucked out of thin air by palaeontologists. Deposits of that age, in general, would not be fully stabilised and it would be difficult to extract fossil remains. However, the remains are still in there, waiting patiently to be petrified - a fact taken advantage of by archaeologists who don't have the patience to wait another 990,000 years. Middens containing piles of shells have been found by those people, and they must count as being in the "pre-fossil" stage.

Only a specimen which had washed up on shore and been preserved in such a midden would be discoverable. The point I'm making is that sea-floor fossils that young would still be sea-floor fossils. They would not likely be in places where they could be discovered, so looking for them in places where they would not likely be discovered does not provide sufficient evidence of absence to declare absence.


I can't argue with that. And it does make it pretty unlikely that we'll be discovering kraken fossils very soon. What I'm saying is that until we do find such fossil evidence, there is no reason to regard the kraken as anything other than mythological. Looking for a Higgs boson is fine, as it is predicted by theory - but all we have for the kraken is a garbled set of folk tales.

. . . and the wishful thinking of calamari fanatics. . .
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby munsterspeek » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:41 pm

The arranged vertebrae also seemed to resemble the pattern of sucker disks on a cephalopod's tentacle, with each vertebra strongly resembling a sucker made by a member of the Coleoidea, which includes octopuses, squid, cuttlefish and their relatives. The researchers suggest this pattern reveals a self-portrait of the mysterious beast.


Just so I understand the quote, let me paraphrase: The arranged bones from the dead animals in the spinal column look like suckers on a tentacle.

Leaving the unsupported implied agency of arranged aside... ha ha...

I did not know ( and do not know ) cephalopods rearrange the bones of their prey in the order of suckers on their tentacles. Reading this less closely, I could have sworn a couple times they were saying there were sucker marks on the bones. But, no, sucker. It seems the words are arranged to seem that way on a quick read...

If octopi really do that, or squid, why? They line up spinal column bones? Weird, if true. I'll have to look that up... not sure how.

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Re: Lair of Kraken Monster found

Postby Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:54 pm

munsterspeek wrote:
The arranged vertebrae also seemed to resemble the pattern of sucker disks on a cephalopod's tentacle, with each vertebra strongly resembling a sucker made by a member of the Coleoidea, which includes octopuses, squid, cuttlefish and their relatives. The researchers suggest this pattern reveals a self-portrait of the mysterious beast.


Just so I understand the quote, let me paraphrase: The arranged bones from the dead animals in the spinal column look like suckers on a tentacle.

Leaving the unsupported implied agency of arranged aside... ha ha...

I did not know ( and do not know ) cephalopods rearrange the bones of their prey in the order of suckers on their tentacles. Reading this less closely, I could have sworn a couple times they were saying there were sucker marks on the bones. But, no, sucker. It seems the words are arranged to seem that way on a quick read...

If octopi really do that, or squid, why? They line up spinal column bones? Weird, if true. I'll have to look that up... not sure how.

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