Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:24 am

salomed wrote:... I was mistaken about the ease of finding Right Angled Triangles between the punctuation. They are not that uncommon, unless I am mistaken about that. I can also see where my program went wrong, it was using perfect points and lines, rather than 2d points and lines, which clearly change things ...

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:21 pm

salomed wrote:Really good, thank you. I was mistaken about the ease of finding Right Angled Triangles between the punctuation. They are not that uncommon, unless I am mistaken about that. I can also see where my program went wrong, it was using perfect points and lines, rather than 2d points and lines, which clearly change things.
Aha, the old principle of GIGO. :mrgreen:

salomed wrote:As to why Green didn't include the other RATs or the Circle you drew I can only assume it was because they didn't encode the nine constants that Green has claimed to have found. Could you please do your skilled magic on those and show once and for all if they are there?
I'm not a geometer, just a humble designer. And, unfortunately, I never did wrap my brain around the higher maths, due to an Algebra I teacher who believed that girls couldn't do math. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy, of course, since she failed to teach us.

salomed wrote:If you can I will drop this, and as above admit that I was mistaken (A rare thing amongst the ego forrest here!) about what Green found.
Perhaps someone more skilled than I in the maths department will take this on. However, I can speak to the inherent irrationality of Green's hypothesis.

First, think about the reason Green stated these mathematical constants were encoded rather than simply drawn in plain view. Clearly, Green's idea was that other secretive math geeks (SMGs, for brevity) would buy the manuscript and follow the clues to draw the figures that he has, thus learning the new, futuristic mathematical constants. Now, ask yourself these questions:
• How do our hypothetical SMGs even know that this invisible geometric code is present? What portion of the text on the title page is their clue that the punctuation marks hold a secret?
• In the same vein, what portion of the text instructs our SMGs to use the punctuation marks as endpoints for lines? How do they know which ones to use and which to ignore? After all, I was able to make four more right triangles using marks that Green ignored.
• What portion of the text instructs them to draw only right triangles? What portion tells them to draw a circle?
• Zoom in to Green's drawing and take note of this: Where several different triangles' vertices are on the same dot, none of the vertices is on the exact same point on that dot. How do our SMGs know exactly where on each dot to begin and end their lines?
• What portion of the text instructs them to formulate and solve equations? If these mathematical constants are new to them, how do they know they've solved correctly when no description for the importance of these constants is provided to them? (Let's say someone has never seen a map, and you give them one. Would you expect them to intuit its use without explanation, or be able to decipher its symbols?)

It doesn't matter whether the constants are there, Salomed. They might be there, if Green has taken the time to draw his triangles correctly. The point is this:
1. A manual typesetter using cast lead slugs in a handmade frame which was tightened by hand did not have the tools to encode precise geometric figures into the text. Note (in pink) that his letters are not lined up along the same baseline, and that many of them have an imprecise orientation. Visible to the naked eye are the second e in Neuer, the M and the ed in Imprinted, and the NDO in LONDON. Note (in red) the clear degradation of the letter sorts. And note (in blue) that his lines are neither straight nor parallel.
Image 2. No one receiving this manuscript would have had any way of knowing he was supposed to connect the dots into right triangles that all fit inside a circle.
3. No one, in the early 1600s, had a pen, straightedge, and T-square precise enough to render triangles that would result in mathematical constants.
4. It would be logical to assume, if this figure were intended to be there, that the different triangles' vertices would meet at exactly the same point. No one would intuit that each triangle's vertex had to be at a completely different point on the same punctuation mark.
5. No one, in the early 1600s, would be able to derive mathematical constants from inconsistent triangles drawn on porous paper with quill and ink. (When musing about an event that may have occurred in the past, it's helpful to consider the tools that were available at the time. You're using modern tools to draw these triangles...so is Green.)
6. Nothing on the title page provides a way for the person solving the equations to check his work. Presuming these mathematical constants are new to him, how would he know he solved correctly?
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Gord » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:10 pm

salomed wrote:(A rare thing amongst the ego forrest here!)

forest

Although, technically, I suppose you could have meant "foremost", in which case forrest would not be incorrect.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:04 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: Perhaps someone more skilled than I in the maths department will take this on. However, I can speak to the inherent irrationality of Green's hypothesis.
I already pointed out the mathematics to Salomed and he didn't understand it. You will get it in seconds.

Pick and Choose the right fit from 32,000,000 options
There are 89 text signs, including the ends of each line, on the third print run Sonnets Title page. I can draw 4,005 different length lines between each text sign. Alan Green claimed that if you divide one specific chosen line by another specific chosen line you could obtain a particular irrational number ( "a constant). Therefore 4005 X 4004 = 16,036,02 combinations exist, however we can also invert any fraction, so that means there are over 32,000,000 potential results for Alan Green to pick and choose from.


You can't calculate an irrational number by division
Salomed and Alan Green claimed that by dividing the measured length of lines, that particular irrational numbers ("the constants") could be calculated. This was pure idiocy. An irrational number is an irrational number because it can't be expressed as a fraction. That means the whole claim was bull-shit from the very start.


"But some numbers cannot be written as a ratio of two integers ... It is irrational because it cannot be written as a ratio (or fraction), not because it is crazy! Example: π (Pi) is a famous irrational number."
https://www.mathsisfun.com/irrational-numbers.html

This is why Salomed and Alan Green are putting up a fight.
Salomed uses the mathematician Descartes as his avatar on our forum and Alan Green says on his website
"Don't worry... you don't need to understand math to appreciate the elegance of his masterpiece. " In short, they never did basic high school mathematics and don't know anything about maths.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:26 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:2. No one receiving this manuscript would have had any way of knowing he was supposed to connect the dots into right triangles that all fit inside a circle.
Yet again, you "got it" in seconds.

A code or a cypher must be, by definition, systematic. It must decode or decypher the same result every time. However Salomed and Alan Green could not set out their code at all. When I pointed this out to Salomed he simply copied the Sonnets page image again and removed all the text markings that didn't fit his claim
:lol:

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:40 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:2. No one receiving this manuscript would have had any way of knowing he was supposed to connect the dots into right triangles that all fit inside a circle.
Yet again, you "got it" in seconds.

A code or a cypher must be, by definition, systematic. It must decode or decypher the same result every time. However Salomed and Alan Green could not set out their code at all. When I pointed this out to Salomed he simply copied the Sonnets page image again and removed all the text markings that didn't fit his claim
:lol:
Yes, that's exactly what I mean! If the title page included only the specific dots that needed to be connected, and if those dots were all the exact same size, and if the vertices of each triangle began and ended on the exact same point, and if there was some clue in the text that you were supposed to connect the dots...but even then, the tools available at the time would not result in the precision required, and the math would still not be there. I can think of several better and easier ways to communicate these constants to numerous other people, both openly and secretively.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:01 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: I can think of several better and easier ways to communicate these constants to numerous other people, both openly and secretively.
You got it. That's the whole point. The Elizabethans did do exactly that.
Mathematics.jpg

Alan Green pretends to be an expert on Shakespeare. In reality, Alan Green is mixing up pyramids, the speed of light and Shakespeare. He hasn't got a clue about any of those things other than what he reads on wikipedia.
:D .
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:28 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:I'm not a geometer, just a humble designer. And, unfortunately, I never did wrap my brain around the higher maths...


This is not higher maths, it's literally elementary. I did it myself, for example:

This:

Phi_Proof2.jpg


And:

Bruns_Constant_Proof2.jpg


(I did for five constants, see above)

So it isn't the maths that I want help with, it is doing the measurements on the image.

First, think about the reason Green stated these mathematical constants were encoded rather than simply drawn in plain view.


He believe's it is John Dee, a genius cryptographer's hand. I don't know why he jumps to that conclusion, but if they are intentionally encoded it seems the most plausible candidate for the time.

• How do our hypothetical SMGs even know that this invisible geometric code is present? What portion of the text on the title page is their clue that the punctuation marks hold a secret?


There are clues, such as the sparse cover page text, the two lines and the very big G dot. If it is meant to be hidden, then it is as it is meant to be:)

How do they know which ones to use and which to ignore?


I would start with the ones that encode Pi and Phi etc.

After all, I was able to make four more right triangles using marks that Green ignored.


Maybe there is information encoded in those Green hasn't found? Maybe they are irrelevenat.

Zoom in to Green's drawing and take note of this: Where several different triangles' vertices are on the same dot, none of the vertices is on the exact same point on that dot.


I thought that too. And me oh my I have been zooming into his images far to much over the months! Geen explains that, I think correctly, that it would not be possible, matheamtcially, to have them all converging on perfect points, the tint room for manuiver is what allows this all to be possible. Don't forget, we are discussing the hypothesis that hidden information is encoded, not that this this is some mathematical proof requiring intersection. Also, for the time, before zooming in was possible, its pretty amazingly precice.

How do our SMGs know exactly where on each dot to begin and end their lines?


They don't need to.

A manual typesetter using cast lead slugs in a handmade frame which was tightened by hand did not have the tools to encode precise geometric figures into the text.


This is Ellards much shouted point. I think it is merely begging the question. Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?

3. No one, in the early 1600s, had a pen, straightedge, and T-square precise enough to render triangles that would result in mathematical constants.


Again, begging the question/circular reasoning/assuming the consequent. If this was done by intention it was done by someone with anachronous knowledge. If someone knew Brun's constant 400 years before Brun it seems very possibly to me that they could draw straight lines and right angled triangles.

4. It would be logical to assume, if this figure were intended to be there, that the different triangles' vertices would meet at exactly the same point.


Unless it is mathematically impossible to encode the 12 (I thought it was 9) constants, the pythagoran triangles, etc in a circle with the latitude and longitude of the Great Pyramid? This is Green's contention. I don't know of it is true.

5. No one, in the early 1600s, would be able to derive mathematical constants from inconsistent triangles drawn on porous paper with quill and ink.


You assume it was not written for a later generation.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:44 pm

" ... it would not be possible, matheamtcially, to have them all converging on perfect points, the tint room for manuiver is what allows this all to be possible."
The whole point in a nutshell. Another classic from salomed which deserves to be preserved for posterity! Someone tell her - she has me on ignore. Or 'no ginore' as she might put it.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:08 pm

salomed wrote:Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?

Doubtful, since the word and letter blocks are used on both renditions (just look at LONDON - it seems to be the same block in both prints, but the "AT" doesn't line up the same way with the "L" in them - meaning those are separate blocks).


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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:46 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
salomed wrote:Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?

Doubtful, since the word and letter blocks are used on both renditions (just look at LONDON - it seems to be the same block in both prints, but the "AT" doesn't line up the same way with the "L" in them - meaning those are separate blocks).


(With thanks to Matthew for providing these^.)


Isn't that more confirming the mystery? The blocks are the same for the text but not for the dots for the lines.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:08 pm

Eggs ... Look - the blocks are different. The AT and the L are different. (Correct)
SlalomHead ... The blocks are the same for the text. (BS)

How much longer does this charade go on?

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:09 pm

salomed wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
salomed wrote:Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?

Doubtful, since the word and letter blocks are used on both renditions (just look at LONDON - it seems to be the same block in both prints, but the "AT" doesn't line up the same way with the "L" in them - meaning those are separate blocks).


(With thanks to Matthew for providing these^.)


Isn't that more confirming the mystery? The blocks are the same for the text but not for the dots for the lines.

They seem the same, but a poorer impression. And it looks like a series of various blocks (with one or more words), rather than individual letters and/or punctuation.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Without the original/reprint in hand and a few "maybes", this is how I would dissect the first one:

AT • LONDON
By • G. Eld for T.T. • and • are • to be ſolde • by • John Wright, • dwelling
at • Christ Church • gate.
1609.


(The red comma and periods could be individual type, and "dwelling" might be a composite. The "for" in "G. Eld for T.T." also might be an individual block, however the "f" certainly does no line up the same with the "L" of LONDON on both prints.)
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:01 pm

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I'm not a geometer, just a humble designer. And, unfortunately, I never did wrap my brain around the higher maths...
This is not higher maths, it's literally elementary. So it isn't the maths that I want help with, it is doing the measurements on the image.
I have neither the software nor the manual tools for taking such measurements to that level of precision.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:First, think about the reason Green stated these mathematical constants were encoded rather than simply drawn in plain view.
He believes it is John Dee, a genius cryptographer's hand. I don't know why he jumps to that conclusion, but if they are intentionally encoded it seems the most plausible candidate for the time.
These words and phrases should send red flags up in your brain. There would have been no valid reason to encode this material during that era. None. It could have been drawn and explained openly to people in that era, as well as preserved for posterity without the secrecy. There's no motive for this at all.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:• How do our hypothetical SMGs even know that this invisible geometric code is present? What portion of the text on the title page is their clue that the punctuation marks hold a secret?
There are clues, such as the sparse cover page text, the two lines and the very big G dot. If it is meant to be hidden, then it is as it is meant to be:)
Most cover pages have sparse text, usually including only the title, author, and publishing information. The two lines are just simple graphic elements to take up white space; that's not unusual either, although they're usually more ornate. The larger G-dot doesn't stand out as anything except a typographical inconsistency. Now, if all dots that were to be connected were perceptibly larger than the dots that were supposed to be ignored, that might be a clue.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:How do they know which ones to use and which to ignore?
I would start with the ones that encode Pi and Phi etc.
Er...no. You missed the point. You're making a presumption from knowledge you already have. What I'm saying is, faced with a blank title page, how would our hypothetical SMGs know which dots to use and which to ignore? Remember, they don't know what you know. All they see is a blank page. They could be drawing triangles for hours before hitting on the right ones. Remember also that they have no clue that they're supposed to draw only right triangles; there is absolutely no hint in the text pointing to that.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:After all, I was able to make four more right triangles using marks that Green ignored.
Maybe there is information encoded in those Green hasn't found? Maybe they are irrelevenat.
How would anyone know? What, exactly, prompted Green to start drawing triangles on the title page of Shakespeare's sonnets? Has he ever explained the process by which he learned this information?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Zoom in to Green's drawing and take note of this: Where several different triangles' vertices are on the same dot, none of the vertices is on the exact same point on that dot.
I thought that too. And me oh my I have been zooming into his images far to much over the months! Geen explains that, I think correctly, that it would not be possible, matheamtcially, to have them all converging on perfect points, the tint room for manuiver is what allows this all to be possible. Don't forget, we are discussing the hypothesis that hidden information is encoded, not that this this is some mathematical proof requiring intersection. Also, for the time, before zooming in was possible, its pretty amazingly precice.
Isn't that convenient? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the triangles are drawn with such precision, but that "it would not be possible to have them all converging on perfect points?" Why is the precision that "proves" Green's hypothesis possible, but actual, true mathematical precision impossible?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:How do our SMGs know exactly where on each dot to begin and end their lines?
They don't need to.
I rather think they do, unless you think they spent the rest of their lives drawing, erasing, and redrawing triangles until they chanced upon futuristic mathematical constants that were completely unfamiliar to them.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:A manual typesetter using cast lead slugs in a handmade frame which was tightened by hand did not have the tools to encode precise geometric figures into the text.
This is Ellards much shouted point. I think it is merely begging the question. Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?
No. "Begging the question" is when the conclusion is actually one of the premises. That's not the case here. The premises are:
• In the early 1600s, a manual typesetter used cast lead slugs, and lead is soft and prone to bending and breaking.
• The cast lead slugs were set by hand into a handmade frame.
• The frame was then tightened by hand.
And the conclusion is: This method did not allow for precise geometric figures to be encoded into text. Clearly, my reasoning is not circular.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:3. No one, in the early 1600s, had a pen, straightedge, and T-square precise enough to render triangles that would result in mathematical constants.
Again, begging the question/circular reasoning/assuming the consequent. If this was done by intention it was done by someone with anachronous knowledge. If someone knew Brun's constant 400 years before Brun it seems very possibly to me that they could draw straight lines and right angled triangles.
Again, my reasoning is not circular; I shouldn't have to set it out for that to be eminently clear. Nor is it affirming the consequent, since my argument did not take that form. Here is an example of affirming the consequent:
• If right triangles can be drawn between punctuation marks, then it proves that someone intended those triangles to be drawn.
• Right triangles can be drawn between the punctuation marks on the title page of Shakespeare's sonnets.
Therefore:
• Someone intended people to draw those triangles. :mrgreen:

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:4. It would be logical to assume, if this figure were intended to be there, that the different triangles' vertices would meet at exactly the same point.
Unless it is mathematically impossible to encode the 12 (I thought it was 9) constants, the pythagoran triangles, etc in a circle with the latitude and longitude of the Great Pyramid? This is Green's contention. I don't know of it is true.
I don't see what your response has to do with my comment. The coordinates for the Great Pyramid of Giza are 29.9792° N, 31.1342° E, according to Google; does Green show these figures? If so, how does he derive them?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:5. No one, in the early 1600s, would be able to derive mathematical constants from inconsistent triangles drawn on porous paper with quill and ink.
You assume it was not written for a later generation.
Well, you and Green have made about a thousand assumptions; I don't see why I can't make one.

Oh, I found out where the Great Pyramid was hiding. :mrgreen:
Image
Seven right triangles!!! Also, I think this clearly presages the surrealistic art movement.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:25 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:
salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:I'm not a geometer, just a humble designer. And, unfortunately, I never did wrap my brain around the higher maths...
This is not higher maths, it's literally elementary. So it isn't the maths that I want help with, it is doing the measurements on the image.
I have neither the software nor the manual tools for taking such measurements to that level of precision.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:First, think about the reason Green stated these mathematical constants were encoded rather than simply drawn in plain view.
He believes it is John Dee, a genius cryptographer's hand. I don't know why he jumps to that conclusion, but if they are intentionally encoded it seems the most plausible candidate for the time.
These words and phrases should send red flags up in your brain. There would have been no valid reason to encode this material during that era. None. It could have been drawn and explained openly to people in that era, as well as preserved for posterity without the secrecy. There's no motive for this at all.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:• How do our hypothetical SMGs even know that this invisible geometric code is present? What portion of the text on the title page is their clue that the punctuation marks hold a secret?
There are clues, such as the sparse cover page text, the two lines and the very big G dot. If it is meant to be hidden, then it is as it is meant to be:)
Most cover pages have sparse text, usually including only the title, author, and publishing information. The two lines are just simple graphic elements to take up white space; that's not unusual either, although they're usually more ornate. The larger G-dot doesn't stand out as anything except a typographical inconsistency. Now, if all dots that were to be connected were perceptibly larger than the dots that were supposed to be ignored, that might be a clue.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:How do they know which ones to use and which to ignore?
I would start with the ones that encode Pi and Phi etc.
Er...no. You missed the point. You're making a presumption from knowledge you already have. What I'm saying is, faced with a blank title page, how would our hypothetical SMGs know which dots to use and which to ignore? Remember, they don't know what you know. All they see is a blank page. They could be drawing triangles for hours before hitting on the right ones. Remember also that they have no clue that they're supposed to draw only right triangles; there is absolutely no hint in the text pointing to that.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:After all, I was able to make four more right triangles using marks that Green ignored.
Maybe there is information encoded in those Green hasn't found? Maybe they are irrelevenat.
How would anyone know? What, exactly, prompted Green to start drawing triangles on the title page of Shakespeare's sonnets? Has he ever explained the process by which he learned this information?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Zoom in to Green's drawing and take note of this: Where several different triangles' vertices are on the same dot, none of the vertices is on the exact same point on that dot.
I thought that too. And me oh my I have been zooming into his images far to much over the months! Geen explains that, I think correctly, that it would not be possible, matheamtcially, to have them all converging on perfect points, the tint room for manuiver is what allows this all to be possible. Don't forget, we are discussing the hypothesis that hidden information is encoded, not that this this is some mathematical proof requiring intersection. Also, for the time, before zooming in was possible, its pretty amazingly precice.
Isn't that convenient? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the triangles are drawn with such precision, but that "it would not be possible to have them all converging on perfect points?" Why is the precision that "proves" Green's hypothesis possible, but actual, true mathematical precision impossible?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:How do our SMGs know exactly where on each dot to begin and end their lines?
They don't need to.
I rather think they do, unless you think they spent the rest of their lives drawing, erasing, and redrawing triangles until they chanced upon futuristic mathematical constants that were completely unfamiliar to them.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:A manual typesetter using cast lead slugs in a handmade frame which was tightened by hand did not have the tools to encode precise geometric figures into the text.
This is Ellards much shouted point. I think it is merely begging the question. Maybe the creator of the front page carved a singular block with it all in rather than using individual symbols lined up. Do you agree this is a possibility?
No. "Begging the question" is when the conclusion is actually one of the premises. That's not the case here. The premises are:
• In the early 1600s, a manual typesetter used cast lead slugs, and lead is soft and prone to bending and breaking.
• The cast lead slugs were set by hand into a handmade frame.
• The frame was then tightened by hand.
And the conclusion is: This method did not allow for precise geometric figures to be encoded into text. Clearly, my reasoning is not circular.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:3. No one, in the early 1600s, had a pen, straightedge, and T-square precise enough to render triangles that would result in mathematical constants.
Again, begging the question/circular reasoning/assuming the consequent. If this was done by intention it was done by someone with anachronous knowledge. If someone knew Brun's constant 400 years before Brun it seems very possibly to me that they could draw straight lines and right angled triangles.
Again, my reasoning is not circular; I shouldn't have to set it out for that to be eminently clear. Nor is it affirming the consequent, since my argument did not take that form. Here is an example of affirming the consequent:
• If right triangles can be drawn between punctuation marks, then it proves that someone intended those triangles to be drawn.
• Right triangles can be drawn between the punctuation marks on the title page of Shakespeare's sonnets.
Therefore:
• Someone intended people to draw those triangles. :mrgreen:

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:4. It would be logical to assume, if this figure were intended to be there, that the different triangles' vertices would meet at exactly the same point.
Unless it is mathematically impossible to encode the 12 (I thought it was 9) constants, the pythagoran triangles, etc in a circle with the latitude and longitude of the Great Pyramid? This is Green's contention. I don't know of it is true.
I don't see what your response has to do with my comment. The coordinates for the Great Pyramid of Giza are 29.9792° N, 31.1342° E, according to Google; does Green show these figures? If so, how does he derive them?

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:5. No one, in the early 1600s, would be able to derive mathematical constants from inconsistent triangles drawn on porous paper with quill and ink.
You assume it was not written for a later generation.
Well, you and Green have made about a thousand assumptions; I don't see why I can't make one.

Oh, I found out where the Great Pyramid was hiding. :mrgreen:
Image
Seven right triangles!!! Also, I think this clearly presages the surrealistic art movement.



I get it now ;)
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:57 pm

Salomed wrote:" ... it would not be possible, matheamtcially, to have them all converging on perfect points, the tint room for manuiver is what allows this all to be possible."

Poodle wrote:The whole point in a nutshell. Another classic from salomed which deserves to be preserved for posterity! Someone tell her - she has me on ignore. Or 'no ginore' as she might put it.


Salomed and Alan Green back peddled in April 2017
Salomed brought this crap here in late 2016. We shredded every point in it. Salomed kept posting and google made our forum thread a "hit" on searches.

Alan Green panicked as his two future books were being destroyed before release. Alan Green announced in April 2017 that the dots were not accurate (lifting directly from our forum arguments) and tried to hide this fundamental error in his claim.


What has been interesting is that Alan Green and Salomed have been sharing images that were not made public and both Alan Green and Salomed conceded the dots were useless as precise measuring points at the same time.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:07 am

salomed wrote:There are clues, such as the sparse cover page text, the two lines and the very big G dot.
We have been through this three times. You are pretending to forget again. The title page is sparse because it is a title page. All Elizabethan title pages are sparse and so are modern title pages.

"The lines" also appear on many other Elizabethan title pages. They are needed to keep the blank areas of the paper, from resting on the pre-inked print block.
Title page.jpg
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:What has been interesting is that Alan Green and Salomed have been sharing images that were not made public and both Alan Green and Salomed conceded the dots were useless as precise measuring points at the same time.
Images from this forum?
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:53 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
salomed wrote:There are clues, such as the sparse cover page text, the two lines and the very big G dot.
We have been through this three times. You are pretending to forget again. The title page is sparse because it is a title page. All Elizabethan title pages are sparse and so are modern title pages.

[color=#000080]"The lines" also appear on many other Elizabethan title pages. They are needed to keep the blank areas of the paper, from resting on the pre-inked print block.
Title page.jpg
I'll bet anyone that I can draw at least four right triangles on this title page. Any takers? :mrgreen:
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:What has been interesting is that Alan Green and Salomed have been sharing images that were not made public and both Alan Green and Salomed conceded the dots were useless as precise measuring points at the same time.
Nikki Nyx wrote:Images from this forum?
Nope. Images created by Alan Green but not posted by Alan Green until April 2017. Both Alan Green and Salomed used an image of the Sonnets Title page from which they removed all text markings that did not fit into their magic lines. Salomed posted it here before April 2017 in an attempt to hide problems with Alan's initial claim.

Quatro Sheet Printing
The Sonnets were printed in Quatro, meaning four pages were printed simultaneously and the sheet was folded to make two pages of double side print. Therefore the fixed spacing between metal print block letters of the same font are constant on all four pages. I checked that. it means the spacing on the title page is not manipulated as Salomed / Alan Green claimed.


Forgery Spotting in older texts.
As a general rule, manual typewriters and movable type print have constant spaces between the same groups of letters. Modern computers don't do this in the same way. Idiots load down typewriter fonts but forget about the spacing. Thomas Hoving was the the "Forged art spotter" at the Met Museum of Modern Art and put out some books on spotting forgeries. He has a check list on how to spot forged documents. I am a big fan of Thomas Hoving


The Forged Hitler Diaries / UK Comedy movie "Selling Hitler"
Alexei Sayle, Barry Humphries, Tom Baker, Jonathan Pryce, Peter Capaldi and others starred in a comedy based on the forged Hitler diaries. It is extremely funny and takes the piss out out nazi memorabilia but also explains how the forgeries were spotted. (Ball point pens were not invented until.....)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI7DoG4ot2I

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:12 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:What has been interesting is that Alan Green and Salomed have been sharing images that were not made public


It is fascinating how this is your only bastion or real attempt at refutation:

The image I used was the one from Wikipedia, the one you could use but won't. The one Green used is a different high resolution image licenced from the Folio society (His discusses this in his website).

So your argument (and now your acolyte/sockpuppet's) is that we are both lying. That is it. All the stuff about the typesetting and all of your many hours of research amounts to naught because it is circular: you are assuming that it was not possible in 1609 when the whole point is if it is not a hoax or coincidence then it was, necessarily, possible in 1609.

That is it: I am a liar. So is green. Now, Green might be a massive fraud, my Judgement is still out on that. But what I do know 100% is that when I take the image from Wikipeia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_sonnets) and I do my shoddy measurements that I have uploaded many times above without doubt I find those constants in the ratios of the lines between the dots.

They are there. You can see this yourself, but you absolutely refuse, ignoring my questions and simply accusing me of dishonesty, spending countless hours with your silly little "comedy" images and yet not a moment doing the one thing that would silence me: show me the constants are not there.

I know you won't because I am sure you know they are there. Interestingly, Nikki also refused to, yet since that refusal she/he has spent a lot of time on this post and also on subsequent image manipulations. Odd;)

The constants are in that image that has been on Wikipedia for many years.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:36 pm

I'm assuming that you peek even though you have me on ignore, salomed. You may kick and scream all you like, but you are, without the slightest shadow of doubt, a consummate liar. You HAVE had it demonstrated, over and over again, why, in the years in question, what you insist was possible was impossible. Over and over and over again yet, in typical woomeister fashion, your claim is now that it never happened. Re-read the threads in which you have attempted to pull the wool over the eyes of anyone nice enough to put up with you for a while.
I fully realise that your response is going to be "Show me where", because it always is. Give it up - it's becoming tedious. What your fairy story demands is accuracy impossible to attain at that time, gullibility which wasn't the norm even in the 17th century, and right-on stupidity on the part of 'hermetic masters' who could simply have walked down to the local hostelry and declaimed their knowledge (and WOULD have done) as that was by far the easiest and safest method of disseminating the information.
Stop it - it's becoming stultifyingly boring. No more discussion is even possible without even more repetition. You have failed and your friend's book sales will not be increased via this forum.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:17 pm

salomed wrote:The image I used was the one from Wikipedia, the one you could use but won't. The one Green used is a different high resolution image licenced from the Folio society (His discusses this in his website).
The point Matthew was making is that the image that Green (and you) used was not the first edition of Shakespeare's sonnets. This is the first edition:
Image
Obviously, the extra line of text at the bottom (noting John Wright's address) makes Green's circle and all his triangles impossible, since the dot after 1609 is in a completely different place relative to the rest of the punctuation marks.

salomed wrote:So your argument (and now your acolyte/sockpuppet's) is that we are both lying.
That is not my argument, Salomed. My argument is that Green is perpetrating a ridiculous hoax to make money, and that you have fallen for it. I'm trying to make you see that Green is a charlatan. (And I am neither an acolyte nor a sock puppet. I didn't even read your other thread until it was pointed out to me. Also, note my date of membership; clearly, this is not a sock puppet account for the purpose of annoying you. Sheesh.)

salomed wrote:That is it. All the stuff about the typesetting and all of your many hours of research amounts to naught because it is circular: you are assuming that it was not possible in 1609 when the whole point is if it is not a hoax or coincidence then it was, necessarily, possible in 1609.
Your reasoning is backwards. One looks at the available technology of the era, then concludes that this level of precision was impossible. One does not say that Green's drawings retroactively proves it was possible. This is why you've been taken it...sloppy thinking.

salomed wrote:Now, Green might be a massive fraud, my Judgement is still out on that.
I can't imagine why. I've already proven to you that most of what Green claims is BS. Right triangles can be drawn between punctuation marks on any page of text. I found seven on the title page of The Merchant of Venice, and probably would have found more had I continued. It's likely that any number of those triangles would have fit inside a circle.

salomed wrote:But what I do know 100% is that when I take the image from Wikipeia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_sonnets) and I do my shoddy measurements that I have uploaded many times above without doubt I find those constants in the ratios of the lines between the dots.

They are there. You can see this yourself, but you absolutely refuse, ignoring my questions and simply accusing me of dishonesty, spending countless hours with your silly little "comedy" images and yet not a moment doing the one thing that would silence me: show me the constants are not there.
Fine. Using Green's own numbers for the triangle he claims shows pi (from this pdf), I get 3.14248252, which is obviously not pi. Not even to three decimal places, as Green claims. Pi is 3.14159265359. And, oh dear, even Green has to admit I'm right.
Image

Are you convinced now?
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:16 am

salomed wrote: It is fascinating how this is your only bastion or real attempt at refutation
No Salomed. After I systematically destroyed every point you and Alan Green claimed about the Sonnets Title page. I then started to review how you and Alan Green shared information, lies and bogus images. That's what I do.

You and Alan are the two idiots who kept making exactly the same mistakes, for example, claiming your image was the original edition taken from the British Museum (There is no Sonnets page at the British Museum). Would you like to see the list of your shared ineptitude? It's a long list.

salomed wrote: So your argument is that we are both lying.
Your opening post was a lie and Alan Green's website are just lies. Neither of you had the first John Wright edition of the Sonnets. Both of you had the modified William Aspley print run. I told you that in February and you continued to lie. :lol:

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:20 am

Whats the point of different prints? If it were true, all the secret stuff was put into the second edition not the original. Seems like a minor point................other than it all being BS.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:32 am

Poodle wrote: Stop it ..... You have failed and your friend's book sales will not be increased via this forum.


I need to be careful for legal reasons.......but here goes. The books were meant to be a small revenue inflow to Alan Green. They are the "lure" for the bigger "real pirate map for sale" scam. Simultaneously Alan Green is seeking to raise money to find something magical hidden in the alter at Stratford's Holy Trinity Church. The books are to source Alan "rich dumb targets".
http://www.tobeornottobe.org/

Once the scan results were in though, I had the insurance I needed. Only then did I fly back to Stratford to find out for sure whether they'd do the right thing or not. Had they said yes then I would've told them I'd already done it and just given them the radar files. All I wanted was to secure the truth by documenting the scan so nothing could accidentally 'disappear' later. (In Sonnet 121 the Bard plainly tells us there will be a cover-up: "By their rank thoughts my deeds must not be shown").
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Alan Green claims to have scanned a stone alter using a Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) device. Salomed posted this on a forum where the entire anti-holocaust-denial team, has spent a two years, reviewing the GPR and other archaeological investigations of Treblinka Extermination camp. I will have some technical questions for Alan Green if he ever returns here.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:41 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Whats the point of different prints? If it were true, all the secret stuff was put into the second edition not the original. .
You are not following the logic.

There are no secret shapes in the first edition, Then, at a later date, only three punctuation marks are moved for the later edition.

Alan Green and Salomed find magical hidden shapes connecting those moved dots to some of the old existing dots and didn't know they had a later edition. The original "dots" in the first edition did not connect to anything! They make the claim that Shakespeare included secret shapes.

However if 99.999% of the the original layout didn't change, that means no one hid anything in the Sonnets as defined by the original dots, now removed.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:44 am

Matt: you amaze me. Other than the real pirate map scam, you can't be "interested" otherwise? Where you abused as a child by a numerologist or card reader?
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:...Alan Green is seeking to raise money to find something magical hidden in the alter at Stratford's Holy Trinity Church....

altar :P

I hope.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:59 am

Gord: Ignoring (all my constant) typos: good use of your time...............and contra re Matt as well.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:09 am

In any case, here's Green's real fraud:
Using Green's own numbers for the triangle he claims shows pi (from this pdf), I get 3.14248252, which is obviously not pi. Not even to three decimal places, as Green claims. Pi is 3.14159265359. Now, look at Green's note on his diagram:
Image
His number agrees with mine: 3.14248252...NOT PI. So he puts a little note next to it that reads, "actual value 3.14159." It's complete BS! He didn't even get pi!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Gord » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:48 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: Ignoring (all my constant) typos: good use of your time...............and contra re Matt as well.

I find it important to correctly spell the words in the main subject of the sentence, at the very least. :P
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Cadmusteeth » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:28 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: you amaze me. Other than the real pirate map scam, you can't be "interested" otherwise? Where you abused as a child by a numerologist or card reader?

I'd say he just doesn't like BS. 'Cause, you know, they tend to be cons and scammers.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:52 am

Cadmusteeth wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: you amaze me. Other than the real pirate map scam, you can't be "interested" otherwise? Where you abused as a child by a numerologist or card reader?

I'd say he just doesn't like BS. 'Cause, you know, they tend to be cons and scammers.

Bobbo will have you know, that's cons and pros and scammers. :-P
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:57 am

Gord wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Gord: Ignoring (all my constant) typos: good use of your time...............and contra re Matt as well.

I find it important to correctly spell the words in the main subject of the sentence, at the very least. :P


He's a witch! :dwarf:
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Evidence of Salomed's forgery.

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:20 am

Hard Evidence Salomed Forged Images
salomed yesterday wrote: The image I used was the one from Wikipedia
Salomed cannot stop lying.
salomed in early February wrote:They look the same to me. And the same as the one i just downloaded from the British Museum.
There is no Sonnets page at the British Museum. I inform Salomed this in February.
salomed in late February wrote: It is the exactly same as at the one British Library
The British Library says John Wright. Salomed's PDF says William Aspley. He never looked and is lying again.
salomed in late February wrote:Ahhh, you were quick to become abusive Matthew. I must be onto something.
I told Salomed he didn't have the first edition and was an idiot.
salomed in March wrote:I have taken the image from your link and have superimposed it in GIMP onto the one from the British Musea...Library.... so you can see how perfectly the points align.
Salomed forges a match by reversing the colours on his JPEG but failed to notice the British Library version say "John Wright". His version say "William Aspley". (Click and read this post by Salomed to see the forgery)
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=27941&start=40#p567602


However, Salomed did convince Gorgeous
I love this forum. The "true idiots" follow each other like blind lemmings jumping off a cliff face.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Both of you had the modified William Aspley print run.


I care not, at this stage, about print runs, printers, authorship, methods or even reasons, I just care if encoded in a 400 year old manuscript are numerous fundamental constants, some of which were not known until the 20th century. That is the mystery that fascinates me. I also find it fascinating how desperate and aggressive you are, but that is a smidgen of fascination compared to the mystery aforementioned.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:09 am

"None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see."
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:40 pm

salomed wrote:I just care if encoded in a 400 year old manuscript are numerous fundamental constants, some of which were not known until the 20th century.
They're not. Did you see my last post to you? Or this one? Green's own measurements do not produce pi, and his pdf shows that.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
—Lazarus Long, from Time Enough for Love, by Robert A. Heinlein


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