Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

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Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:19 am

salomed / Alan Green wrote: Is this really the depths of patheticness you have sunken to?
No Alan. You tried to get a viral campaign going, for your new book with the same bogus mathematics as the last book. You got destroyed on a skeptic forum. Bad luck. :D

"Now, finally, the story can be told. Book I was made publicly available in September, 2016. The follow-up, BardCode, will be released in early 2017. The third in the series, The Shakespeare Equation, is slated to be ready around late 2017. With The Holy Trinity Solution Series almost under wraps, Green will return to finishing his musical, BARD, based on those much misunderstood love poems, Shakespeare's Sonnets."
http://www.tobeornottobe.org/bio

salomed / Alan Green wrote: Because you cannot dispute the facts
What facts? There is not one mathematical constant anywhere on the Sonnets page and your hilarious claim that the constants could be derived by simple division shows your complete idiocy concerning basic mathematics. :lol:

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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby salomed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
salomed / Alan Green wrote: Is this really the depths of patheticness you have sunken to?
No Alan. You tried to get a viral campaign going, for your new book with the same bogus mathematics as the last book. You got destroyed on a skeptic forum. Bad luck. :D

"Now, finally, the story can be told. Book I was made publicly available in September, 2016. The follow-up, BardCode, will be released in early 2017. The third in the series, The Shakespeare Equation, is slated to be ready around late 2017. With The Holy Trinity Solution Series almost under wraps, Green will return to finishing his musical, BARD, based on those much misunderstood love poems, Shakespeare's Sonnets."
http://www.tobeornottobe.org/bio

salomed / Alan Green wrote: Because you cannot dispute the facts
What facts? There is not one mathematical constant anywhere on the Sonnets page and your hilarious claim that the constants could be derived by simple division shows your complete idiocy concerning basic mathematics. :lol:



Skype/Facetime me and you will see I am not him. I know you wont. I dont care but it would be funny. You are pathetic.
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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:35 am

salomed wrote: Skype/Facetime me and you will see I am not him. I know you wont.
Why in hell would I want to do that? I'm already in a win win situation.

I had the pleasure of destroying your new book, before release and got to review and destroy your awful woo claim on the forum, that search engines put at the top of the list. Two birds, One stone. Thanks for bringing it here. :D

I sent Alan Green an email to join us here. Didn't you get it? Why don't you also send him an email and you "two" can argue together with your combined "high power" mathematical skills? That would be hilarious! :D

PS : Aren't you meant to be finding hidden right angled triangles in the Manchester phone book? How's that going for you? :lol:

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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby salomed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:47 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
salomed wrote: Skype/Facetime me and you will see I am not him. I know you wont.
Why in hell would I want to do that? I'm already in a win win situation.

I had the pleasure of destroying your new book, before release and got to review and destroy your awful woo claim on the forum, that search engines put at the top of the list. Two birds, One stone. Thanks for bringing it here. :D

I sent Alan Green an email to join us here. Didn't you get it? Why don't you also send him an email and you "two" can argue together with your combined "high power" mathematical skills? That would be hilarious! :D

PS : Aren't you meant to be finding hidden right angled triangles in the Manchester phone book? How's that going for you? :lol:



You are pathetic.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:14 am

I think this is the last I'm going to say on this subject. Salomed, you appear to believe that the discussion has descended into personal attacks and little else, and you'd be correct - but a good 50% of them are coming from your direction. This is now an undebatable subject as you have stated and repeated your entrenched position and that position has been consistently opposed. There's nowhere left to go in any debate - Matthew would point out the lack of accuracy in your argument and you would continue to insist that the required accuracy can be somehow defined within the image you are using. There's nowhere to go from there.









(Apart from how wrong you are).

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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby Matthew Ellard » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:50 am

salomed wrote: You are pathetic.
Nope. I'm what's called a "skeptic". You are what's called "an idiot" who came to our skeptic forum with a bull-shit story that mathematical constants were secretly encoded in Shakespeare's Sonnets title page. :D

You didn't know that there were different versions of the title page,

You couldn't find any of the constants,

You mistakenly thought the constants could be recreated through mere mathematical division,

You couldn't explain away that the fixed print type blocks size defined distances between text letters and punctuation,

You couldn't explain away that large full stops (1/160th of the page width )can't define mathematical constants.

You couldn't explain why an Elizabethan type setter would attempt to do this.

You couldn't explain how any Elizabethan could measure millimeters when rulers didn't exist and Elizabethan's measured in 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 inches.

You cheated and pretended you placed a JPEG over the original British Library version and didn't realise the British Library original had a different text at the bottom

You cheated and forged a Sonnets page where you removed all the other punctuation so you didn't have to explain why they did not also containing "hidden secret messages".

You cheated and ignored that there were 16,000,000 similar measurements according to your "method" on the same Sonnets page.

You have absolutely no mathematical knowledge and no understanding of statistics or probability.

Salomed to find Hidden Right Angles Triangles in Manchester phonebook.
We have set you a task, so you may learn the basics about mathematics and probability. Get on with it.
:lol:

Tags / Alan Green / Sonnets / Shakespeare / con-artist / debunk / mathematical constants / fraud

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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:00 am

Post Script
I spent some time researching the magic hidden geometric shapes in the Sonnets over Easter. Here are two new things I learned.


Reconstructing the Alan Green Diagram
On another forum, a person attempted to reconstruct this diagram produced by Alan Green. This person made an interesting observation. When you draw the first geometric shape is is slightly inaccurate. (ie not a true right handed triangle). when you draw the next mathematical shape it is also a little bit inaccurate, however the first drawn shape has to be fudged again to get the second shape to fit. By the time the tenth geometric shape is added, the first drawn geometric shape has to be fudged so extensively, it has no bearing to what it was meant to represent in the first place either in physical shape or mathematically.
The earlier version.jpeg


Hidden shapes in a percentage of all printed books
Lets pretend I gathered together a range of newspapers, copies of Playboy, telephone books, any version of the Bible and Koran and the complete works of Shakespeare. Let's pretend I created scanning software that measured all the punctuation points on any one page of this range of printed material and divided those measured lines by other lines on that page. I would find poor approximations of mathematical constants on a random spread of any of those documents, however, by simple probability mathematics, I would find the most in printed phone books. ( A mathematician friend called Vladimir explained this to me)


Therefore anyone claiming that John Dee was a time traveller who secretly encoded poor approximations of constants in the Sonnets title page would also have to explain how John Dee did the same in all the world's current phone books. That ends that ridiculous claim. :D
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Re: Salomed can't do basic mathematics

Postby salomed » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:08 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Post Script
I spent some time researching the magic hidden geometric shapes in the Sonnets over Easter. Here are two new things I learned.


Reconstructing the Alan Green Diagram
On another forum, a person attempted to reconstruct this diagram produced by Alan Green. This person made an interesting observation. When you draw the first geometric shape is is slightly inaccurate. (ie not a true right handed triangle). when you draw the next mathematical shape it is also a little bit inaccurate, however the first drawn shape has to be fudged again to get the second shape to fit. By the time the tenth geometric shape is added, the first drawn geometric shape has to be fudged so extensively, it has no bearing to what it was meant to represent in the first place either in physical shape or mathematically.
The earlier version.jpeg

Hidden shapes in a percentage of all printed books
Lets pretend I gathered together a range of newspapers, copies of Playboy, telephone books, any version of the Bible and Koran and the complete works of Shakespeare. Let's pretend I created scanning software that measured all the punctuation points on any one page of this range of printed material and divided those measured lines by other lines on that page. I would find poor approximations of mathematical constants on a random spread of any of those documents, however, by simple probability mathematics, I would find the most in printed phone books. ( A mathematician friend called Vladimir explained this to me)


Therefore anyone claiming that John Dee was a time traveller who secretly encoded poor approximations of constants in the Sonnets title page would also have to explain how John Dee did the same in all the world's current phone books. That ends that ridiculous claim. :D


You should have also read Alan Green's very detailed explanations of these issues.

They can be found here, fully explained within the PDFs:

http://www.tobeornottobe.org/math

He also plausibly explains the reason for the much bigger G dot, and in my opinion does this very comprehensively.

I have spent a long time now looking into this and am utterly convinced that these amazing mathematical properties are there by intention. I am not yet ready to go with Green's speculation as to why, but without doubt, anyone who doesn't think there is something astounding, remarkable and utterly mysterious in the cover of the Sonnets just doesn't understand what is claimed to be in there.

If you are going to reply, kindly, I ask you to do so after looking at the Math pages I linked to above. And if you can try not to insult and defame that would also be a bonus.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:34 pm

I'd like to add some weight to Matthew's argument from a graphic design perspective, if I might. Three facts derail Salomed's premise:
1. The impossibility of including (invisible) angled lines of precise lengths between manually typeset characters on different lines of text.
2. The problem of precisely drawing such lines, if they did exist.
3. The issue of working with any image except the original one.

The Typesetting Issue
In typesetting, fonts are divided into two general types: fixed width and variable width. In a fixed width font, each character takes up the exact same amount of horizontal space, whether it's a full stop or a capital M. Example of fixed width font:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
Variable width fonts, OTOH, are kerned depending on the actual width of the character, so a full stop has the smallest horizontal width while the capital M has the largest. Example of a variable width font:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
You can see that your line drawing is going to be completely different depending on whether the typesetter has used a fixed or variable width font. It'll also be different if the type size changes.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
It'll further be different if the line leading and/or length change, neither of which I can show here. Line leading is the space between lines of text. For example, specifying 10/10 means both type size and leading should be 10-point, while 10/12 means type should should be 10-point, but leading should be 12-point. Line length is measured in picas (12 points to one pica). Obviously, your measurements will differ if the line length is 60 picas versus 84 picas.

Further, if I omitted or added a single comma anywhere in that paragraph, added a single double space after a sentence (or after all of them), or misspelled one or more words, it would also be different.

And these differences will derail your premise in the relatively precise world of computerized typesetting. When we discuss the completely imprecise world of manual typesetting via movable cast metal sorts, the possibility of ensuring that angled lines of precise lengths exist between characters on different lines is near zero. Manual typesetting was simply not a precise art due to the nature of its tools and supplies.

The Line Issue
Back when graphic design was a manual art, the go-to tool was the Rapidograph technical pen. As you can see, they come in a variety of nib sizes down to 0.1mm.
Image
For scale, here is an online ruler that detects your monitor to provide an accurate to-scale ruler on your screen. Now...questions:
• What are the diameters of the full stops and dots, and the thicknesses of the lines you are using as endpoints for drawing your lines?
• What is the nib size of the pen you are using to draw your lines?
• Do all of the above named measurements match? If not, what method are you using to determine exactly where on the full stop, dot, and line to place your pen?
The reason this is an issue: Let's say you're using a 0.1mm Rapidograph to draw your lines, but the full stops, dots, and lines all measure 1mm in diameter or thickness. I trust I don't have to explain the numerous ways in which your lines could be adjusted to "prove" nearly anything, given the margin for error.

The Copied Image Issue
The instant you work with anything but the original image, sufficient minute errors arise that make precise calculations impossible. Unless you have taken the original and used a stat camera to make an exact size duplicate, which you haven't. You've stated that you downloaded and printed a copy. I can think of several ways in which your copy differs from the original enough to make your measurements wrong.
1. It's a different resolution. Web media typically has a 72dpi resolution, while print media is at least 300dpi.
2. Your printer heads are dirty and failed to print a clean copy.
3. It's a different aspect ratio. Look...same photo, different aspect ratios.
Image

What you are left with is simply a hoax, Salomed. It's just not possible that an early 17th Century typesetter included (invisible) precisely angled lines between characters on a page that was manually set using cast metal sorts, and that these lines illustrate complex mathematical concepts based on precision measurements it was not possible to make in that era. I do not need to download and print a copy, draw lines, measure them, and do math to prove this. I just proved it, based on the principles of typography and graphic design, and the overwhelming probability of multiple errors in your process.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:46 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:I'd like to add some weight to Matthew's argument from a graphic design perspective, if I might. Three facts derail Salomed's premise:
1. The impossibility of including (invisible) angled lines of precise lengths between manually typeset characters on different lines of text.
2. The problem of precisely drawing such lines, if they did exist.
3. The issue of working with any image except the original one.

The Typesetting Issue
In typesetting, fonts are divided into two general types: fixed width and variable width. In a fixed width font, each character takes up the exact same amount of horizontal space, whether it's a full stop or a capital M. Example of fixed width font:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
Variable width fonts, OTOH, are kerned depending on the actual width of the character, so a full stop has the smallest horizontal width while the capital M has the largest. Example of a variable width font:
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
You can see that your line drawing is going to be completely different depending on whether the typesetter has used a fixed or variable width font. It'll also be different if the type size changes.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Mauris sit amet imperdiet justo. In purus sem, placerat vel rhoncus id, tincidunt sed leo. Etiam vitae dui quis nibh sodales ornare. Maecenas laoreet dolor non tellus dictum, sed sagittis nisi blandit.
It'll further be different if the line leading and/or length change, neither of which I can show here. Line leading is the space between lines of text. For example, specifying 10/10 means both type size and leading should be 10-point, while 10/12 means type should should be 10-point, but leading should be 12-point. Line length is measured in picas (12 points to one pica). Obviously, your measurements will differ if the line length is 60 picas versus 84 picas.

Further, if I omitted or added a single comma anywhere in that paragraph, added a single double space after a sentence (or after all of them), or misspelled one or more words, it would also be different.

And these differences will derail your premise in the relatively precise world of computerized typesetting. When we discuss the completely imprecise world of manual typesetting via movable cast metal sorts, the possibility of ensuring that angled lines of precise lengths exist between characters on different lines is near zero. Manual typesetting was simply not a precise art due to the nature of its tools and supplies.

The Line Issue
Back when graphic design was a manual art, the go-to tool was the Rapidograph technical pen. As you can see, they come in a variety of nib sizes down to 0.1mm.
Image
For scale, here is an online ruler that detects your monitor to provide an accurate to-scale ruler on your screen. Now...questions:
• What are the diameters of the full stops and dots, and the thicknesses of the lines you are using as endpoints for drawing your lines?
• What is the nib size of the pen you are using to draw your lines?
• Do all of the above named measurements match? If not, what method are you using to determine exactly where on the full stop, dot, and line to place your pen?
The reason this is an issue: Let's say you're using a 0.1mm Rapidograph to draw your lines, but the full stops, dots, and lines all measure 1mm in diameter or thickness. I trust I don't have to explain the numerous ways in which your lines could be adjusted to "prove" nearly anything, given the margin for error.

The Copied Image Issue
The instant you work with anything but the original image, sufficient minute errors arise that make precise calculations impossible. Unless you have taken the original and used a stat camera to make an exact size duplicate, which you haven't. You've stated that you downloaded and printed a copy. I can think of several ways in which your copy differs from the original enough to make your measurements wrong.
1. It's a different resolution. Web media typically has a 72dpi resolution, while print media is at least 300dpi.
2. Your printer heads are dirty and failed to print a clean copy.
3. It's a different aspect ratio. Look...same photo, different aspect ratios.
Image

What you are left with is simply a hoax, Salomed. It's just not possible that an early 17th Century typesetter included (invisible) precisely angled lines between characters on a page that was manually set using cast metal sorts, and that these lines illustrate complex mathematical concepts based on precision measurements it was not possible to make in that era. I do not need to download and print a copy, draw lines, measure them, and do math to prove this. I just proved it, based on the principles of typography and graphic design, and the overwhelming probability of multiple errors in your process.



Thank you for your thoughtful reply, it is a shame you didnt even watch the original video, had you, you would have known it has nothing to do with fonts and only to do with five points and two lines. This is pretty standard "jump in before engaging" for this forum.

Can I ask you, if still open minded and interested, to look at the PDFs on http://www.tobeornottobe.org/math and let me know what you think.

You will need to drop your assumptions of typesetting history because, clearly and demonstrably, that cover is something far in advance of what we think was possible four hundred years ago.

One point I would like to address is this:

>What are the diameters of the full stops and dots, and the thicknesses of the lines you are using as endpoints for drawing your lines?

You should watch the video and read the PDF's. The big G point is they key to this all.

I hope you reply with a sense of adventure and mystery rather than the negativity expected here.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:15 pm

Thus speaks a complete ignoramus when it comes to Elizabethan printing technology and its limitations. It has EVERYTHING to do with fonts as they (including all manner of punctuation mark) happened to come on blocks of quite variable tolerance and were pressed onto papers of huge variability in surface and absorbency after having been coated with hand-mixed inks of vastly variable viscosity. It is safe to guarantee that the likelihood of any two prints pulled from any single typesetting effort being identical is vanishingly small. Said Elizabethan printer could not hope in his wildest dreams for effective transmission of any amazing message demanding accuracy appreciably greater then the medium could possibly provide. There is no way past that truth, and it makes a complete mockery of your wishful thinking. No ifs, no buts ... you couldn't have done it even with the much more accurate techniques of engraving or etching because ink-spread would STILL have overwhelmed the necessary tolerance.
I hope you reply with a sense of realism rather than the the sheer fantasy we're coming to expect from you.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:26 pm

I did a quick check. Apparently, I have not posted on this question. I find no interest at all in the subject...but.... its always fun to see if I'm thinking right now exactly what I might have posted some months before?

first go at it: One way to approach a subject, and why this holds no interest for me: let's assume the hypothesis is true.

............................. so what.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Gord » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:I'd like to add some weight to Matthew's and Gord's! argument from a graphic design perspective, if I might. Three facts derail Salomed's premise:
1. The impossibility of including (invisible) angled lines of precise lengths between manually typeset characters on different lines of text.
2. The problem of precisely drawing such lines, if they did exist.
3. The issue of working with any image except the original one.

...and, I guess, many others'.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:33 am

salomed wrote:Thank you for your thoughtful reply, it is a shame you didnt even watch the original video

Salomed is lying again.
Alan Green is a very old, small time con-artist, from the music industry and has released many videos to promote his three books on Shakespeare. The books are poor copies of Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code". They claim that John Dee, an Elizabethan court alchemist, was a time traveller and secretly hid the Wiki maps location of the Giza Pyramids, in Shakespeare's sonnets (in kilometers!). It is very poorly put together and contains some of the most hilarious anachronism and mathematical errors ever,

"Now the journey takes an even more dramatic turn. We find that Shakespeare has been pointing us towards the Great Pyramid not only in the mathematical precision of Book II but in certain subtly veiled segments of his plays and sonnets. Poetry alone however could never conclusively prove his intent; it's too subjective. So he used sacred geometry and pure mathematics to silence the inevitable naysayers."
http://www.tobeornottobe.org/books

What is really going on here
Salomed uses the mathematician, Descartes as his avatar and pretended to be a mathematics expert. When Salomed started to promote Alan Green's books on our forum he was destroyed by skeptics, using basic mathematics. He is therefore fighting to save face. In reality Salomed has no mathematical knowledge at all.

I note that Alan Green has modified his page advertising the books to remove some of the more hilarious mathematical errors, since we pulled Salomed's posts apart. This confirms Salomed and Alan Green have some sort of connection. Both Salomed and Alan Green mistakenly claim the Sonnets Title page is in the British Museum.....it isn't. It's in the British Library. (Funny about that isn't it?)
:D

salomed wrote:You should watch the video
Here is the video Salomed doesn't want you to watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIS-hNrr0-c

What is absolutely hilarious is that Alan Green and Salomed were totally unaware that they used an internet PDF of the third print run of the Sonnets. The title page is different as the book seller was John Wright. Therefore the "dots" don't match any of Salomed's claims. :lol:

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:47 am

salomed wrote:Can I ask you, if still open minded and interested, to look at the PDFs on http://www.tobeornottobe.org/math and let me know what you think.
Fine. Let's begin with this:
Rules of the game
Before we begin, certain ground-rules by which we can judge the placement of a line vertex to be valid or not, must be decided upon.
Frankly, I don't need to read any further to know that this game is rigged. He goes on to claim that the vertices of each triangle must fall on the circumference of the circle he has fabricated. No, they don't. That's rigging the result. He further claims that the triangles must all be right triangles. More rigging.

Here's what he fails to mention, and what you, apparently, haven't noticed. Call them the unwritten rules of the rigged game he's playing:
• The dots following Imprinted, G, Aspley, and 1609 are crucial.
• The dots following the capital Ts are irrelevant; ignore them.
• The line endings to the right are crucial.
• The line endings to the left are irrelevant; ignore them.
• It doesn't matter where you start and end the lines, as long as they form a right triangle that's within the imaginary circle he's drawn. Rigged.

Any idea how many triangles can actually be drawn that are NOT right triangles and that do NOT fall within the imaginary circle? Especially if we also use the dots following the capital Ts and the line endings to the left? Especially if we insist that each triangle's vertices fall exactly in the mathematical center of each dot? Yeah. I'd be surprised if we got any right triangles at all. Look...
1609 - Imprinted - top line, lefthand end
1609 - Imprinted - bottom line, lefthand end
1609 - Imprinted - G
1609 - Imprinted - first T
1609 - Imprinted - second T
1609 - Imprinted - Aspley
1609 - Imprinted - top line, righthand end
1609 - Imprinted - bottom line, lefthand end
That's eight triangles using 1609 and Imprinted as two of the vertices. Time traveling mathematical amazingness revealed? None.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:04 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:first go at it: One way to approach a subject, and why this holds no interest for me: let's assume the hypothesis is true.

............................. so what.


I very much see where you are coming from with this question. In my opinion, if true, we would know at least the following is true:

1) There was an agency in 1609 that knew universal information years before that information was known about publicly, in some cases (Brun's Constant) four hundred years before.
2) There was an agency that was able to precisely locate the location of the Great Pyramid on the Earth.
3) There was an agency in 1609 that had an amazing mathematical ability to steganographically encode information in a way that would remain undetected for four centuries in the cover of one of the worlds most well known books.


If true these facts would then entail, for me, a whole host of who, why and how questions.

In my opinion it would be one of the biggest mysteries of modern times. To quote the Maths pages on the site I linked to:

All we know for sure is that this phenomenon, whatever it is, is
profoundly accurate, beautiful, and provocative. Someone went to
incomprehensible lengths to calculate and design all this. And then hide it for
“eyes not yet created” to o’er read (sonnet 81). We should probably take it
very seriously. There really are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:09 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
What is absolutely hilarious is that Alan Green and Salomed were totally unaware that they used an internet PDF of the third print run of the Sonnets. The title page is different as the book seller was John Wright. Therefore the "dots" don't match any of Salomed's claims. :lol:


It is such a shame you dont really read what you try to attack. Green, as he clearly states, licenced the largest scan from the Folio society; you could to. I used the one from Wikipedia for my maths. They both produce the same results.

It is also a shame that in your many thousands of words that you typed, in this thread, to me about this you have not once spent the time to download the image and show me that those right angled triangles or constants are not encoded. If I am lying you could do that in ten mins, why wont you? I think it is because you know you would prove yourself wrong, because a child with a ruler and a protractor could show that they really are there.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:19 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I don't need to read any further to know that this game is rigged. He goes on to claim that the vertices of each triangle must fall on the circumference of the circle he has fabricated. No, they don't. That's rigging the result. He further claims that the triangles must all be right triangles. More rigging.


You are a designer, can you please show me how they are rigged? I tried myself and found them. Can you not download the image from the wikipedia sonnets page and close the case on this please? When I look at the images they really do fall on the vertices and the rules of the game are satisfied. Why do you think they are not?
• It doesn't matter where you start and end the lines, as long as they form a right triangle that's within the imaginary circle he's drawn. Rigged.


It does matter, that is the only circle you can make through those points. If I am missing something please explain.

Any idea how many triangles can actually be drawn that are NOT right triangles and that do NOT fall within the imaginary circle?


Yes, but that is the point. The presence of one right angled triangle between three arbitrary points is very small, the presence of 4 is astronomically small. I ran a simulation (above) to test this. It is crazy improbable. Then to find they are pythagorean triangles, utterly insane. This is not chance.


This mystery takes up quite a bit of my time, I would be happy for you to show me I am mistaken and Green is mistaken or a hoaxer.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:01 am

I'm reminded of the various comedy routines based on a girl friend leaving or getting fired and repeatedly saying why but the protagonist of the joke keeps saying: "Just tell me why."

.................and here we have a new context.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:11 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I'm reminded of the various comedy routines based on a girl friend leaving or getting fired and repeatedly saying why but the protagonist of the joke keeps saying: "Just tell me why."

.................and here we have a new context.


Why would not give me considered thoughts on my reply to you question, rather than joining the sarcastic and uninformative army of Ellards? I expected more.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:23 am

Salomed: you just don't get the joke .............and its on you. You keep asking people to explain after they have gone out of their way to give you a full and satisfactory answer.

I actually prefer to think you aren't this stupid. You do get the joke. You do understand the responses. You just think you are serving some higher purpose by being so low yourself.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:33 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Salomed: you just don't get the joke .............and its on you. You keep asking people to explain after they have gone out of their way to give you a full and satisfactory answer.

I actually prefer to think you aren't this stupid. You do get the joke. You do understand the responses. You just think you are serving some higher purpose by being so low yourself.

Silly Hooman.


There is no joke. You have nothing to say, I have been reading your posts, you are just a naysayer like many others here. Not a skeptic, not a thinker, just a negger.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:36 am

Oooooh! That cuts like a knife. You equate what you don't like reading, aka: the DIRECT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, as having nothing to say.

THATS the JOKE. A very POSITIVE thing to recognize. You've still got time.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:40 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Oooooh! That cuts like a knife. You equate what you don't like reading, aka: the DIRECT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, as having nothing to say.

THATS the JOKE. A very POSITIVE thing to recognize. You've still got time.


Sarcasm. Ego. Bulling. Derailing. Distraction... wait...are you actually Ellard?;)

OK, let us start over. Please can you paste here the direct response to my question:
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:45 am

"Ne soyons pas. OK?"
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:48 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:"Ne soyons pas. OK?"


I will take your evasion as admission that there was no answer/response.
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:02 am

How is a direct response saying "NO" an admission to the opposite?

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:53 pm

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I don't need to read any further to know that this game is rigged. He goes on to claim that the vertices of each triangle must fall on the circumference of the circle he has fabricated. No, they don't. That's rigging the result. He further claims that the triangles must all be right triangles. More rigging.
You are a designer, can you please show me how they are rigged? I tried myself and found them. Can you not download the image from the wikipedia sonnets page and close the case on this please? When I look at the images they really do fall on the vertices and the rules of the game are satisfied. Why do you think they are not?
Green has made up these rules to force you to draw the lines in certain places and in certain ways. He's led you to see patterns that aren't truly there. I can do the same thing. Read on...

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:• It doesn't matter where you start and end the lines, as long as they form a right triangle that's within the imaginary circle he's drawn. Rigged.
It does matter, that is the only circle you can make through those points. If I am missing something please explain.
But it's not the only circle you can make through the points on the page. Why is my circle not as acceptable?
Image
At the top, it crosses the capital letters N and I. At left, it crosses both line ends. And at the bottom, it not only goes through the dot at 1609, it also follows the curves of both the 9 and the capital A in Aspley.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Any idea how many triangles can actually be drawn that are NOT right triangles and that do NOT fall within the imaginary circle?
Yes, but that is the point. The presence of one right angled triangle between three arbitrary points is very small, the presence of 4 is astronomically small. I ran a simulation (above) to test this. It is crazy improbable.
Astronomically small, huh? Crazy improbable? I'm curious as to the parameters you used for your simulation, because I had no problem at all finding four right triangles on this page of Thomas Paine's Common Sense. It took me five minutes.
Image

salomed wrote:Then to find they are pythagorean triangles, utterly insane. This is not chance.
Neither insane nor chance. In plane geometry, all right triangles are Pythagorean, if their sides can be represented in positive integers.

salomed wrote:This mystery takes up quite a bit of my time, I would be happy for you to show me I am mistaken and Green is mistaken or a hoaxer.
Challenge accepted. Here are four right triangles on the page that Green failed to include. Why? I had no problem finding them. Perhaps because they didn't fit into his hoax, just like my circle.
Image
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:22 pm

Nikki: quite admirable how you can create those learning aides..........not that they will.
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Salomed continues to tell fibs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:32 pm

salomed wrote:If true these facts would then entail, for me, a whole host of who, why and how questions.

They are not true Salomed. You made up some really stupid lies and got caught. How could any Elizabethan measure the distance to the Great pyramids in kilometers three hundred years before kilometers were created? :lol:

salomed wrote:Green, as he clearly states, licenced the largest scan from the Folio society; you could to.
Both you and Alan Green used an internet jpeg of the third print run of the Sonnets that clearly says William Aspley. You both then claimed you got it from the British Museum. In reality the first print run states "John Wright" and is held in the British Library. There is no Sonnets page held at the British Library. The magical coded dots are in different places meaning your claim is complete crap. You two idiots simply made up a lie and forgot to check the details first. :lol:

salomed wrote:You are a designer, can you please show me how they are rigged?

1) You arbitrarily choose only dots that almost fit your claim and ignore all those that don't. You could do the same with a page from a telephone book.
2) You didn't know that irrational numbers cannot be made through [i]division[/i] and so when you claimed that the constants (irrational numbers) were encoded by division, you didn't check that they don't match. There is not one constant anywhere on the Sonnets page.


salomed wrote:This mystery takes up quite a bit of my time, I would be happy for you to show me I am mistaken and Green is mistaken or a hoaxer.
Alan Green and yourself are small time con artists. Alan Green, the elderly unemployed musician previously released all these same lies 10 years ago in a book called dee-constructing Shakespeare, with a different final claim. Alan Green is simply re-editing and re releasing for more profit. You are promoting his books.

Let's now all singalong with Failed Musician Alan Green (Stage Name : Arlan Day)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxvIsnXpUXU

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:44 pm

Nikki Nyx wrote:Green has made up these rules to force you to draw the lines in certain places and in certain ways. He's led you to see patterns that aren't truly there..
It's funnier than that. Alan Green and Salomed used the wrong jpeg internet image of the Sonnets title page. :lol:

Here is the first print run of the Sonnets Title page held in the British Library (John Wright is the bookseller)
Sonnets John Wright version.jpg

Here is the JPEG image they used of the third print run (William Aspley is the next bookseller) held by a private collector. Obviously the "dots" have moved and thus every claim Green makes is incorrect.
Sonnets William Aspley.jpg
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:59 pm

We've been here a few times already. It is now obvious that Salomed's 'technique' is to issue repeated appeals to ignore physical reality and re-interpret history. I'm sad about that - I previously held out some hope for Salomed. However, this thread now serves only to demonstrate why the woo-publishing industry is so lucrative. Doubly sad.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:23 am

Poodle wrote: However, this thread now serves only to demonstrate why the woo-publishing industry is so lucrative. Doubly sad.
Well let me cheer you up.

Firstly, Alan Green has delayed releasing his second two "Magic constants hidden in Shakespeare" self published books. The second book was due out last month but now held off till late 2017. The third book is now "due in 2018". I assume Alan Green is re-writing them to avoid his more obvious deceptions.

Secondly, Alan was trying to promote his three books on various Shakespeare forums. (Salomed was attempting to promote the books by viral campaigns) However anyone who did a search on Alan Green ended up on our forum, where we were tearing shreds off Alan and Salomed's lies and fabrications.

Salomed should have immediately given up and moved onto the next forum, but he kept posting lies here and we get the lion's share of search engine results. It is Salomed who is killing off Alan's books.

I think this is good evidence that our little skeptic forum, can make a difference.

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:30 am

Given the printing technology of the time, it's just not possible to "encode" mathematically precise geometric figures into a body of text. The letter sorts were cast lead slugs, FFS, that were handset into a frame which was then hand-tightened. The precision just wasn't possible. I mean, look at the word "LONDON." The letters aren't even lined up on the same baseline. To be honest, it'd be difficult to do such a thing with computerized typesetting, unless you first drew the figures, then superimposed the text over them, nudging the kerning and leading to fit.

If the vertices of every single triangle on a single dot were in the exact same spot, I might be slightly impressed by Green's ability to hoax, but they're not. When you zoom in, you can clearly see that each triangle's vertex is at a different point on the same dot. And that holds true for every dot and line ending where a vertex is.

Green's spiel—"Look at the italicized second T. It's clearly telling us to draw a line from the 1609 dot to the Imprinted dot." No, it bloody well isn't "telling" you any such thing! Both Ts are the same, but the lefthand one was printed from a letter sort that should have been melted down, as it has degraded. The swash on the left is incomplete, and the righthand side and lower serif have been bent. Lead is soft, so the finer parts of the letter's design will fail first.

Green is a fraud, and his hoax is based on people's willingness and need to see patterns in chaos.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Poodle » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:36 am

Done, done and done.
(But will it make an iota of difference? I suppose that will be determined by the tolerance on the iota).

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:36 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However anyone who did a search on Alan Green ended up on our forum, where we were tearing shreds off Alan and Salomed's lies and fabrications.

Salomed should have immediately given up and moved onto the next forum, but he kept posting lies here and we get the lion's share of search engine results. It is Salomed who is killing off Alan's books.

I think this is good evidence that our little skeptic forum, can make a difference.[/color]

ImageImageImageImageImageImage
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:41 am

Nikki Nyx wrote: Green is a fraud, and his hoax is based on people's willingness and need to see patterns in chaos.
Salomed is also a complete fraud. He abandoned his first "viral promotion" thread, when he got caught lying and simply started a new thread and changed his claim.

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=27871&hilit=sonnets#p562460

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:43 am

Oh, brother. Well, in any case, it's clearly a hoax and we can prove it not only six ways from Sunday, but about a hundred ways from Sunday.
What are the facts? Again and again and again-what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history”--what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
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Salomed continues to tell fibs

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:46 am

We are getting some flak from Alan Green / Salomed on his blog
https://medium.com/@BardCode/blog-of-av ... 605f7abc55

July the 6th
"When the online trolls started snapping at my heels, demanding I retract all my lies about Shakespeare being a math genius, etc., etc., I admit I was completely out of my depth. I had no idea how to handle them."


"I tried to answer everyone the way Mum would’ve liked. I appealed to their better natures. I suggested rational debate. I offered to send pdfs explaining my findings in detail. With pictures. But no matter how much I reached out, nothing worked. In fact it got worse. It was non-stop, four months of viscious, hatred-infested, logic-defying, grammar-obliterating, spelling-impaired ‘commentary’. Finally, I gave up. I realized there was nothing to do but ignore them. (Duhhhh!) I posted a link on my website:"

Here is the link to Alan Green / Salomed's explanation for his mathematical errors and fabrications .
http://www.tobeornottobe.org/math

In reality, Alan /Salomed doesn't answer anything. Instead the link takes you to PDFs of exactly the same images that were falsely used before. The forged Sonnets page still is the William Aspley later print run and not the first edition with John Wright as bookseller, held at the British Library. That means every claim Alan / Salomed is still totally bogus. They used the wrong edition. :lol:

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Re: Do these four coloured lines represent four key constants?

Postby salomed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:01 am

Nikki Nyx wrote:
salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Frankly, I don't need to read any further to know that this game is rigged. He goes on to claim that the vertices of each triangle must fall on the circumference of the circle he has fabricated. No, they don't. That's rigging the result. He further claims that the triangles must all be right triangles. More rigging.
You are a designer, can you please show me how they are rigged? I tried myself and found them. Can you not download the image from the wikipedia sonnets page and close the case on this please? When I look at the images they really do fall on the vertices and the rules of the game are satisfied. Why do you think they are not?
Green has made up these rules to force you to draw the lines in certain places and in certain ways. He's led you to see patterns that aren't truly there. I can do the same thing. Read on...

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:• It doesn't matter where you start and end the lines, as long as they form a right triangle that's within the imaginary circle he's drawn. Rigged.
It does matter, that is the only circle you can make through those points. If I am missing something please explain.
But it's not the only circle you can make through the points on the page. Why is my circle not as acceptable?
Image
At the top, it crosses the capital letters N and I. At left, it crosses both line ends. And at the bottom, it not only goes through the dot at 1609, it also follows the curves of both the 9 and the capital A in Aspley.

salomed wrote:
Nikki Nyx wrote:Any idea how many triangles can actually be drawn that are NOT right triangles and that do NOT fall within the imaginary circle?
Yes, but that is the point. The presence of one right angled triangle between three arbitrary points is very small, the presence of 4 is astronomically small. I ran a simulation (above) to test this. It is crazy improbable.
Astronomically small, huh? Crazy improbable? I'm curious as to the parameters you used for your simulation, because I had no problem at all finding four right triangles on this page of Thomas Paine's Common Sense. It took me five minutes.
Image

salomed wrote:Then to find they are pythagorean triangles, utterly insane. This is not chance.
Neither insane nor chance. In plane geometry, all right triangles are Pythagorean, if their sides can be represented in positive integers.

salomed wrote:This mystery takes up quite a bit of my time, I would be happy for you to show me I am mistaken and Green is mistaken or a hoaxer.
Challenge accepted. Here are four right triangles on the page that Green failed to include. Why? I had no problem finding them. Perhaps because they didn't fit into his hoax, just like my circle.
Image


Really good, thank you. I was mistaken about the ease of finding Right Angled Triangles between the punctuation. They are not that uncommon, unless I am mistaken about that. I can also see where my program went wrong, it was using perfect points and lines, rather than 2d points and lines, which clearly change things.

As to why Green didn't include the other RATs or the Circle you drew I can only assume it was because they didn't encode the nine constants that Green has claimed to have found. Could you please do your skilled magic on those and show once and for all if they are there?

This is my best attempt on four of them:

Do_these_4_lines_represent_4_constants_sml.jpg


If you can I will drop this, and as above admit that I was mistaken (A rare thing amongst the ego forrest here!) about what Green found.
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