Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Who else knows what we know, Jerry?
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by JO 753 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:39 pm

:?

Earth to Tom - 'Russia' = Putin. All polisy & action iz ordered by him.

'China' = Xi Jinping mostly. The karakter uv the 1,378,000,000 sheepl living there iz uv 0 konsekwens. I hav the impression that the politburo and top military doodz hav a little power, so Xi cant do absolutely anything he wants.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Tom Palven » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:46 pm

JO 753 wrote::?

Earth to Tom - 'Russia' = Putin. All polisy & action iz ordered by him.

'China' = Xi Jinping mostly. The karakter uv the 1,378,000,000 sheepl living there iz uv 0 konsekwens. I hav the impression that the politburo and top military doodz hav a little power, so Xi cant do absolutely anything he wants.
Check China out. This Gate 1 Tavel tour is the el-cheapo trip of a lifetime and it includes not only air fare (they can patch your through from Boston or wherever, but free beer with dinner! Check ouot their video:
https://www.gate1travel.com/asia-pacifi ... jfk18.aspx

(You can get free wine with dinner if you go with a different travel company and pay 5 grand or so per person.)
If one can be taught to believe absurdities, one can commit atrocities. --Voltaire

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by JO 753 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:52 pm

Such a deal! I will take up drinking alkuhol to get in on it.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:37 am

Tom Palven wrote:So, essentially, what you are telling me Matthew, is that the Deep State exonerated Clapper despite the efforts of the ACLU.
No Tom, you complete idiot. The USA courts dismissed the case. Are you claiming the USA courts are your magical Deep State bogeymen? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:This doesn't come as a surprise....
Obviously it does, as I only informed you yesterday. :lol: :lol:
Tom Palven wrote:I cannot imagine how voting is going improve the situation until the Fourth Reich fades away
.......so that is why you want Trump to become dictator and establish martial law? :lol: :lol:



Questions Tom Palven refuses to answer

1) Do you agree that, your hero, Edward Snowden defected to Russia?


2) Why do you lie and claim to support the free market, while simultaneously supporting Trump and his tariff war against the rest of the world?

3) Name one member of the "Deep State" and your supporting evidence.

4) Name one member of the "Military industrial complex" and your supporting evidence.

5) Why do you claim the CIA runs the world? Explain how the CIA runs Russia and then China.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:15 am

A "whistleblower" and "whistleblower legislation" are two different things. Whistleblower legislation is designed to protect an employee from being forced to break a law by an employer. The term "whistleblower" usually refers to someone who takes on the social responsibility of informing the public about government or corporate wrongdoing.

With regard to Snowden, I'd say he fits the definition of whistleblower, but not traitor. A traitor sells out his country for personal gain. It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:19 am

JO 753 wrote:Do you think Russia and China will be better stewardz uv the world and leav everybody else alone?
Tom Palven wrote:I'm hoping it will be the Chinese, Jo.
Sooooo.....you are on our forum promoting extreme conservative capitalism and Adam Smith.........but hoping a communist country rules the world? You really are a total idiot. :lol:

Tom Palven wrote: The crazy Russian Orthodox church has too much influence in Russia.
You have never been to Russia and made that up. The government controlled the Russian Orthodox church. :lol:
Russian Patriarch 'was KGB spy'
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/feb/12/1

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:27 am

landrew wrote:With regard to Snowden, I'd say he fits the definition of whistleblower, but not traitor. A traitor sells out his country for personal gain. It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.
Snowden made $200,000 USD last calendar year in speech fees while living in Moscow. That is in addition to his accommodation supplied by the Russian government.
https://mic.com/articles/151339/edward- ... .0cJ5LWXGa

Kim Philby made money through his international best seller "My Silent War" while living in Moscow.

Of interest the person who ran the defectors in Moscow in the 1970s was Oleg Kalugin. He published his book "Spymaster: My Thirty-two Years in Intelligence and Espionage Against the West" which describes how defectors were allowed to make money through publishing and so on.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Tom Palven » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:19 am

landrew wrote:A "whistleblower" and "whistleblower legislation" are two different things. Whistleblower legislation is designed to protect an employee from being forced to break a law by an employer. The term "whistleblower" usually refers to someone who takes on the social responsibility of informing the public about government or corporate wrongdoing.

With regard to Snowden, I'd say he fits the definition of whistleblower, but not traitor. A traitor sells out his country for personal gain. It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.

I agree.

Snowden didn't voluntarily defect to Russia any more than Aussie Julian Assange "defected" to England, and neither one of them escaped the authoritarian Brownshirts for the money.
Last edited by Tom Palven on Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
landrew wrote:With regard to Snowden, I'd say he fits the definition of whistleblower, but not traitor. A traitor sells out his country for personal gain. It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.
Snowden made $200,000 USD last calendar year in speech fees while living in Moscow. That is in addition to his accommodation supplied by the Russian government.
https://mic.com/articles/151339/edward- ... .0cJ5LWXGa

Nice try, but it just doesn't fit the definition of "traitor."
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:43 am

landrew wrote: It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Snowden made $200,000 USD last calendar year in speech fees while living in Moscow. That is in addition to his accommodation supplied by the Russian government.
landrew wrote:Nice try, but it just doesn't fit the definition of "traitor."
You don't think $200,000 a year plus accommodation is not much personal gain? What do you think he earned before? :lol:

May I remind you Snowden sold out Australian "Five Eyes" secrets to the Russians, including our sub cables. We stopped supplying info to the USA until they could stop leaks.

I also remind you the the CIA was previously totally sold out by Aldrich Ames for "personal gain" and the FBI's counter Soviet intelligence desk,totally sold out by Robert Hanssen, for personal gain.. In the old days these were just called bribes.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:51 am

Tom Palven wrote:Snowden didn't voluntarily defect to Russia ........
He got on an Aeroflot flight to Moscow where he defected. :lol:

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:27 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
landrew wrote: It's not clear that he's getting much personal gain, or selling out his country.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Snowden made $200,000 USD last calendar year in speech fees while living in Moscow. That is in addition to his accommodation supplied by the Russian government.
landrew wrote:Nice try, but it just doesn't fit the definition of "traitor."
You don't think $200,000 a year plus accommodation is not much personal gain? What do you think he earned before? :lol:

May I remind you Snowden sold out Australian "Five Eyes" secrets to the Russians, including our sub cables. We stopped supplying info to the USA until they could stop leaks.

I also remind you the the CIA was previously totally sold out by Aldrich Ames for "personal gain" and the FBI's counter Soviet intelligence desk,totally sold out by Robert Hanssen, for personal gain.. In the old days these were just called bribes.
We all know Snowden wasn't motivated by greed or self-interest. That much is obvious. You can't use the word "traitor" in the absence of such intent.

His desire for self-preservation once he blew the whistle on the government abusing it's own citizens illegally, can not be conflated with motivation for personal gain. Comparing him to Aldrich Ames is an obviously fallacious comparison.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:59 am

landrew wrote: We all know Snowden wasn't motivated by greed or self-interest. That much is obvious.
How is it obvious? He knew where the money from his work was and went to Moscow. He gave the Russians Australia ASD information.

Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee tried the same trick when they went to the Russian embassy in Mexico and also sold NSA information. It's called shopping secrets.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
landrew wrote: We all know Snowden wasn't motivated by greed or self-interest. That much is obvious.
How is it obvious? He knew where the money from his work was and went to Moscow. He gave the Russians Australia ASD information.

Christopher Boyce and Andrew Daulton Lee tried the same trick when they went to the Russian embassy in Mexico and also sold NSA information. It's called shopping secrets.
I give up. I'd be repeating everything again. The difference is more than obvious to me.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:28 am

landrew wrote: I give up. I'd be repeating everything again. The difference is more than obvious to me.
What about Peter Wright then? He was the whistle-blower who identified Sir Roger Hollis as as Soviet mole and director of Mi5 until 1965. He didn't go live in Moscow. He moved to Australia and made his case in the courts.

It seems to me that Snowden selling US information about the UK's GCHQ and Australia's ASD, to Russia and moving to Russia is not a wonderful person, to whom we should build statues.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24767

If I was an Australian hunting down KGB slush funds in Fiji in the early 2010s I wouldn't be thrilled that Snowden had identified my home contact methods to the KGB in Russia. I'd be looking over my shoulder and changing hotels all the time. :D

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:27 pm

Well, if you were working for the government, and you discovered they were engaged in a criminal enterprise, and if you had the courage to expose it to serve the causes of justice and public interest, wouldn't you take your chance to get away from their retribution?

You really sound like a chicken who wants to help the fox, because someone told you it's wrong to question the powerful.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:56 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:It seems to me that Snowden selling US information about the UK's GCHQ and Australia's ASD, to Russia and moving to Russia is not a wonderful person, to whom we should build statues. [/color]
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24767
It seems to me that you only want to examine Snowden from extreme viewpoints: jail or monuments. Much better ALWAYS is to appreciate the pros and the cons of what he did. He revealed some truths that our gubments were hiding and he hurt national security as a result. More pros and cons.....if you want to THINK about it.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:56 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:It seems to me that you only want to examine Snowden from extreme viewpoints: jail or monuments.
No. I want him to go to court like everyone else has to. The courts will work out his crime and punishment. He can then "re-defect" to Russia in a spy swap.

He put lives in extreme danger. He sold information to the Russians with the experience and special knowledge that what he was doing would do exactly that.

If people like scooter Libby go to gaol for blowing a spies cover, why shouldn't Snowden?

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:09 am

Libby stayed around for the variety of reasons we can posit. I assume Snowden doesn't "respect" the Justice System enough to submit to it if he has options.

You want everyone to be a subject. F*ck that. You're just jealous Snowden has more imagination, insight, morals.... than the rest of us.

Who is worst? someone who "put lives in extreme danger" or our OverLords who make that the case?

You really could look deeper.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:34 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You want everyone to be a subject.
Snowden got paid to be a "subject" in the USA.....so he accepted it, didn't he?

He then sold USA and UK and Australian and New Zealand secrets to the Russians....who also paid him.

It was quite lucrative for him.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You really could look deeper.
I'm the only person in this thread who has looked deeper. :D

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Poodle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:34 am

I practise looking deep several times a day. People often say to me "My - you look deep". When they do I change to my inscrutable face.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:21 am

"The deeper you look, the shallower it gets."

No one in particular.....I just remembered the phrase.

Matt: like it or not, all whistleblowers are paid. SO WHAT? "Morals" are what you do regardless. Heh, heh......turns out to be pretty shallow...……...
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:48 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You want everyone to be a subject.
Snowden got paid to be a "subject" in the USA.....so he accepted it, didn't he?

He then sold USA and UK and Australian and New Zealand secrets to the Russians....who also paid him.

It was quite lucrative for him.

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:You really could look deeper.
I'm the only person in this thread who has looked deeper. :D
So, if you were around during the American Revolution, would you have turned in all the patriots as traitors?

Do you celebrate Benedict Arnold's birthday?
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by JO 753 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:12 pm

I'm gessing Rachel will be interviewing Bill Browder soon. He appearz to be the immediat motivating factor behind Putin'z efforts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btw61oHAfP8
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:33 pm

landrew wrote: So, if you were around during the American Revolution, would you have turned in all the patriots as traitors?
Most colonists were NOT "in the pay" of the British Gubment. I assume most who were did turn in the turncoats......afterall, MONEY does CORRUPT. That's why in the USA at least, gubmint employees take an oath to the Constitution....not the gubmint. To a set of ideas...not their paymaster.

Austrailia: open air prison.....hasn't evolved much.........
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:40 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
landrew wrote: So, if you were around during the American Revolution, would you have turned in all the patriots as traitors?
Most colonists were NOT "in the pay" of the British Gubment. I assume most who were did turn in the turncoats......afterall, MONEY does CORRUPT. That's why in the USA at least, gubmint employees take an oath to the Constitution....not the gubmint. To a set of ideas...not their paymaster.

Austrailia: open air prison.....hasn't evolved much.........
That's a much better definition of "traitor," than someone who risks all he holds dear to fight for the greater good of his society.
Paul Revere became quite famous for his "treason." Was that his "pay" for betraying King and Country?
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Poodle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:43 pm

Ha! You think your revolution succeeded? The Scottish branch of the UK world domination plan gave you Trump. It was no accident.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:14 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: like it or not, all whistleblowers are paid. SO WHAT?
However people who break the law are meant to be treated in the same way. Didn't you know? :lol:

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:22 am

I agree….those who violate the whistleblowers law should be prosecuted/disciplined so that the goals and aims of the program can be met and blowers like Snowden are not forced to leave the country in order to fulfill their oath to the Constitution. There never has been a good time when money should be thought of as buying people. Its "ideas" and "justice" and "honesty" and "open and translucent government" that should control.....but too many people emote as you do. The Mafia works the same way: we paid you....and expect you to stay bought. The Mafia kills, the gubmint jails.

Not much of a difference.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:44 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I agree….those who violate the whistleblowers law should be prosecuted/disciplined so that the goals and aims of the program can be met and blowers like Snowden are not forced to leave the country in order to fulfill their oath to the Constitution. There never has been a good time when money should be thought of as buying people. Its "ideas" and "justice" and "honesty" and "open and translucent government" that should control.....but too many people emote as you do. The Mafia works the same way: we paid you....and expect you to stay bought. The Mafia kills, the gubmint jails.

Not much of a difference.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:48 am

We have all heard: "The law is an ass." Meant to shame those who would call upon honest men to be sheep and be cowed. But FIRST TIME: ".....beat it as one."========================>Thank you.

((I had snake and horse in there too....but it wasn't close enough to the point, so..... word play took the hind seat.))
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:00 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I agree….those who violate the whistleblowers law should be prosecuted/disciplined so that the goals and aims of the program can be met and blowers like Snowden are not forced to leave the country .......
There is the US Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 that does exactly that. Snowden had every opportunity to seek protection under that act.......but sold secrets to Russia for profit.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-con ... ll/20/text

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:20 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:We have all heard: "The law is an ass." Meant to shame those who would call upon honest men to be sheep and be cowed. But FIRST TIME: ".....beat it as one."========================>Thank you.

((I had snake and horse in there too....but it wasn't close enough to the point, so..... word play took the hind seat.))
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by JO 753 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:18 am

Poodle wrote:Ha! You think your revolution succeeded? The Scottish branch of the UK world domination plan gave you Trump. It was no accident.
Now it all makes sens!
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:29 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: There is the US Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 that does exactly that.

Matt: stop posing. You aren't that stupid. The only open question is why are you posing?
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:59 pm

Public dissent is a fundamental component of free and evolving societies.

Someone who wants us to all behave perfectly according to authorities, is a fundamental component of a dictatorship.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: There is the US Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 that does exactly that.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: stop posing. You aren't that stupid. The only open question is why are you posing?
It became clear to me you didn't know there was a Whistle-blower Act.

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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by landrew » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:55 am

I'm seeing only dispassionate fact-checking on MSNBC. Quite the opposite on Fox News.
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Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: There is the US Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989 that does exactly that.
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:Matt: stop posing. You aren't that stupid. The only open question is why are you posing?
It became clear to me you didn't know there was a Whistle-blower Act.
I know more about the WBA than most....having been a plaintiff in the very related Qui Tam action. I know what the WBS "was" a decade or so ago. Don't know what it "is" today. That assumes changes and tweaks made to all legislation from time to time.

But I post only to stroke my own ego re Qui Tam history......because your response is a total dodge and irrelevant.

Qui Tamers, Whistleblowers, complaint filers, people who don't smile and cheer, donate to the bosses kiddies birthday party: all know how precarious it is to challenge our Overlords. Those who champion any protective legislations are either those same Overlords.....or their dupes....or useful idiots.
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Matthew Ellard
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28917
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am

Re: Rachel Maddow to the rescue!

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:58 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:I know more about the WBA than most.........because your response is a total dodge and irrelevant.
Here we go again.....

So Bobo? Using your amazing legal skills .....why wouldn't Snowden be covered by the Act?