The Deep State

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:56 am

Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote: Hillary`s campaign was centered on being fit for, and prepared for, being president.


Sucking up to King Salman made Hillary fit to be Secretary of State for extraordinarily repressive, misogynistic, Saudi Arabia.



The Trump regime honors Saudi prince. SSDD:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/c ... 31973.html
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:50 am

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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:15 pm

Tom Palven wrote:The voters can't handle the truth:
http://original.antiwar.com/David_Stock ... ody-hands/


The article doesn't mention voters.

And Trump supporters aren't the ones who read Noam Chomsky.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:21 pm

Anti-Trumpers can't handle the truth:
http://original.antiwar.com/David_Stock ... ody-hands/

By totalitarian standards anyone who doesn't love Big Brother (the Deep State) is mentally ill, and should be placed in a government re-education facility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Broth ... ty-Four%29

(By the same token, pro-Trumpers can't handle the truth, either. Let's just stipulate that US citizens can't handle the truth.)
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:39 am

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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:43 pm

So, how does this Deep State control Russia into deploying nuclear-tipped cruise missiles in violation of arms treaties, or North Korea into shooting ballistic missiles?
In what way is it unreasonable for a nations intelligence community not to give full access to someone with a proven history of collusion with a rival government?

Seriously, this is just a desperate attempt to maintain the self-deception that voting for Trump was the right thing to do.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:27 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Seriously, this is just a desperate attempt to maintain the self-deception that voting for Trump was the right thing to do.



Well, at least it's posted under the right subject.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:28 am

Patrick Buchanan just doesn't seem to get the fact that the Military-Industrial Congressional Complex/Deep State REQUIRES enemies including Iran, North Korea, Russia, and China. He is trying to talk common sense where common sense is totally irrelevant and Doublethink/Groupthink is operative:
http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/20 ... r-problem/
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:40 am

Tom Palven wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
TJrandom wrote: Hillary`s campaign was centered on being fit for, and prepared for, being president.


Sucking up to King Salman made Hillary fit to be Secretary of State for extraordinarily repressive, misogynistic, Saudi Arabia.



The Trump regime honors Saudi prince. SSDD:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/c ... 31973.html



Saudi royalty want Al-Jazeera shut down:
http://news.antiwar.com/2017/06/07/saud ... e-demands/
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Nikki Nyx » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:38 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:Seriously, this is just a desperate attempt to maintain the self-deception that voting for Trump was the right thing to do.
How could such a vote ever be the right thing to do, given the campaign? I'll admit I voted third party, but I had that luxury, since I live in the bluest of blue states. Had I lived in a swing state, I probably wouldn't have risked it. While I disagree with the "lesser of two evils" method of voting in principle—mainly because the parties manipulate every election to that point—I also disagree with standing idly by while the greater of two evils slouches toward Bethlehem.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:54 am

LunaNik wrote: While I disagree with the "lesser of two evils" method of voting in principle—mainly because the parties manipulate every election to that point—I also disagree with standing idly by while the greater of two evils slouches toward Bethlehem.

So, I take it you actually DO agree with voting in the lesser of two evils when that is the choice in reality? You can not like it, but doing is doing, and your vote is your agreement.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Nikki Nyx » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:17 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
LunaNik wrote: While I disagree with the "lesser of two evils" method of voting in principle—mainly because the parties manipulate every election to that point—I also disagree with standing idly by while the greater of two evils slouches toward Bethlehem.

So, I take it you actually DO agree with voting in the lesser of two evils when that is the choice in reality? You can not like it, but doing is doing, and your vote is your agreement.
Only as a last resort. I do what I can earlier in the electoral process to avoid it becoming a reality. Sometimes, it's unavoidable. If I lived in a swing state, it would have been unavoidable during this past election...in my opinion.
...it used to be so simple, once upon a time.
Because the universe was full of ignorance all around and the scientist panned through it like a prospector crouched over a mountain stream, looking for the gold of knowledge among the gravel of unreason, the sand of uncertainty, and the little whiskery eight-legged swimming things of superstition.
—Terry Pratchett, from Witches Abroad

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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:35 am

What's wrong with the lesser of two evils? We are humans, after all.
We will never get the choice between South Park Saddam and Morgan Freeman as God.

In order have a shot of being nominated you have to be a bit of a bastard or cold, calculating machine - we wouldn't want a Jesus as president if he will turn the other cheek whether we are attacked.

The lesser Evil is by definition better than the other option - everything else is just gravy.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Flash » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:55 am

Of course Trump made a lot of promises to the Americans which he reneged on later on.

The guy suddenly appears out of nowhere, says he wants to be president and promises to "clean the swamp" in Washington, control the bankers, end stupid wars, give everybody a good job, not to start the nuclear war, get some cash from the Europeans for the common defense, fix all of the falling bridges, replace Obamacare with a really great medical insurance, and make the entire country great again, what is the average American to do but believe him.

And furthermore the deplorables see how he is attacked by the morally bankrupt ruling cliques so they vote for him. Who wouldn't?

But when elected, their choice candidate, the revolutionary and a saint turns out to be the skunk. He does not honor any of his promises, tries to sell off the falling bridges to the corporations, has no idea what to replace Obamacare with, starts new wars, doesn't get any cash from the Europeans, puts some more of the really ugly snakes into the Washington swamp and doesn't seem to know what the nuclear war ( or the global warming) would do to the planet.

The deplorables must be flabbergasted. Or are they? maybe they don't care any more. maybe what matters now to them are the new celluloid hallucinations from Hollywood and how to score some good opioids? I don't know.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:00 am

If I was paranoid of the Deep State, I would say that Trump is its Trojan Horse, whipping the population into line by showing how bad things can go if you vote for an outsider.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:26 pm

Here is an interesting conversation with Sen. Lindsey Graham talking to the Deep State:
http://thehill.com/policy/national-secu ... ing-debate

This is a bit ironic since Graham is a fan of the secret police who said in 2013 that he was glad that the NSA was collecting phone records of US citizens and later said about Edward Snowden "I hope we'll chase him to the ends of the earth."
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Electro432 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:32 pm

As the resident not well read person, I take on board the major themes esposed here, and usually discuss with friends, whom like myself are harnessed to family responsibilites and paying the mortgage etc etc I only say this, as Im a busy working parent with little time, I try my best.

I was discussing stuff with a friend and the topic of deep state arose. She wasnt familiar but when I described it, my way, she got it.

I need a yes or no or opinion response with regards to what I told her, if you please.

Basically, at this point in time we are at the mercy of a group of people who carry out, regardless of whom we vote into power, a pre set, set of circumstances show to them; algorithims or data gathering et al. So, in essence, the deep state is beyond who we vote into power. They are an established group who, despite a prime minister or president, try to wangle what makes financial and social sense- within their schemata? Im open to a debate on social control and predictive programming.

Great reading. Thanks. As I'm observing life as someone who is in situ, as in working and being or trying to be a responsible parent.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:27 pm

Deep State really should be defined by whomever wants to talk about it. I assume, weakly, that it is described in the linked article? but I dislike the concept so much, I haven't read it.

Entrenched Interests seems more on target right now than what Deep State sounded like earlier which was the non-elected state bureaucracies. Both will always have their pros and cons.... just like everything else.

Entrenched Interests surely includes those entities that donate money to both parties to assure their access? Trump used to brag about this before gaining office. I've never understood why people didn't take him at his word.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Flash » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:06 am

bobbo the Pramatist wrote:
Deep State... the non-elected state bureaucracies.

But the Deep State seems to be more than just state bureaucracies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/mark-taliano/state-crimes-canada_b_6380022.html

Mark Taliano explains the Deep State this way;
Author, poet, and former Canadian diplomat Peter Dale Scott describes the Deep State in an interview for the Voltaire network, as "the wider interface in America between the public, the constitutionally established state, and the deep forces behind it of wealth, power, and violence outside the government." He adds, "You might call it the back door of the public state, giving access to dark forces outside the law."

The Deep State that he describes is a type of largely unaccountable shadow or parallel government that operates at the international and domestic levels as a driver for policies in our so-called democracies. It functions outside the reach of constitutional law, and it requires top-down forces of public repression. Today, the Deep State arguably supersedes the public government in power and importance.

Corporate media monopolies themselves are appendages of deep state, as they set narrow agendas and censor through omission, some of the most important issues facing civilization. Not surprisingly, some of these momentous but censored issues are also deep state issues.


So the Deep State seems to be the combination of oligarchy with entrenched pseudo-bureaucratic complexes such as the famed intelligence/military/financial complex and it's appendages; the media, the entertainment complex (for propaganda) financial colossus and even the so called elected governments.

Such combination of oligarchs, financial muscle and the militarized bureaucrats has a name invented in Italy before the WWII, fascism.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:33 am

Thanks Flash.........my........that does take DS into very dark and forbidding areas. Whether "that" is the DS or not.... it is a thing and worthy of appreciation on its own. I'd separate the legal vs illegal activities though. I mean, how muddy does a subject have to be?

"Entrenched Interests" within and without the State apparatus...seems to catch it all? Sub groups..... abound.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Flash » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:32 am

I agree, the definition is too broad and too conspiratorial. It covers a lot of bureaucrats, corporate and political interests and "the complex" (military/intelligence, etc). In the end, they are only people who like all people have the propensity for conflict and all kinds of quarrels which would ultimately unmask all of that.

But maybe it is exactly what we are seeing, you know, this gigantic brawl between Trumpists and that other ruling clique. Neither of them have any respect for the people who vote for them or for the constitutions, charters of rights, etc.

They use lies, manipulation, nationalism, racism and of course that old Roman trick, bread and circuses to control the deplorables.

I don't know if there really is a single minded, organized entity called the Deep State but there is no doubt that some powerful vested interests, whether military, corporate or even other states have an inordinate influence and I would say control over our so called elected representatives.

But because, as I mentioned before, they are ultimately only people the {!#%@} will hit the fan sooner or later and maybe we will know for sure unless, of course, we the lied to and manipulated populace will willingly abandon our right to freedom and real democracy in favour of bread and circuses and opioid hallucinations.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:22 am

The essential function of the Deep State is as an excuse no to think and act responsibly for yourself. Most people prefer to bitch about those in positions of power than take on responsibly themselves.

The whole point of a representative democracy is to put a firebreak or at least a delay between the will of different interest groups and its political implementation. Elected officials are supposed to act according to what they think is right, not what their constiuents or (good grief) only their voters want.
The US is unusual in its number of directly elected officials, especially at local level and for posts that, because of the principle of Separation of power, shouldn't really be publicly elected in the first place, like judges, prosecutors and sheriffs.

Since the job of government is to serve the country on the timeframe of centuries, elections are always a (possibly fatal) perturbation of the status quo. So it is essential to have the core of the functional government run by people not beholden to voter's vims and short-term interests.
The UK Civil Service is an obvious example of this.
In the US, it was the practice of pass certain departmental posts from administration to administration (Energy, State Department etc.) and to have heads of agencies (such as the FBI) serve long terms.

The current administration explicitly broke with this silent agreement, putting the short-term interest of a minority ahead of the long term good of the country. No wonder people are fighting back.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:35 am

The Eisenhower administration apparently either helped orchestrate or signed off on Operation Ajax, the combined US/British overthrow of the only democratically-elected government in a Muslim country in the Mid-East in 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iran ... 7%C3%A9tat

This was officially a secret from the US public until Obama apologized to the Iranians a few years ago, annoying a bunch of neoconservatives, but because the elected US administration at the time was at least in favor of the action, imho this didn't qualify as Deep State activity.

However the overthrow of Dr. Mohammed Morsi's democratically-elected Freedom and Justice Party-controlled parliament in 20113 seems to be a different matter.

The Obama administration seemed to be in favor of this fledgling democracy, but US CENTCOM either actively aided and abetted it's overthrow, or stood by and watched and continued to fund the Egyptian military as military dictator Mohammed Fattah al-Sisi took over the country.
http://www.centcom.mil/

Dr. Morsi remains in prison today and al-Sisi has abolished freedom of speech and of the press, and the US still funds his military.

The question is if the Obama administration didn't authorize CENTCOM to orchestrate or allow the overthrow of the elected Egyptian government, who did? We can say the Deep State did it, but exactly who and what the Deep State is still remains a question, one that perhaps Edward Snowden may shed some light on some day.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:28 am

More "strategic manipulation of perceptions," among other things, is needed to slow the sun's setting on the US Empire:

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 6754cdaebf
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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:22 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:The essential function of the Deep State is as an excuse no to think and act responsibly for yourself. Most people prefer to bitch about those in positions of power than take on responsibly themselves. .


No EM. The Deep State is real and is effectively taking action against the Better Angels of our Nature. Now....some people might do as you say but that is not what makes the concept of the DS so important. Here is a DS issue: Banks too big to fail, too big to break up, too big to prosecute. I don't believe A SINGLE ASPECT of that BS...... so some kind of "excuse" or pay off is going on.

.............................. Why Obama?....................... Why?????

Last I heard.... the Bank Regulating Legislation had been overtuned by legislation passed in the House?.... some months ago, lost in the barage of Trump Tweets. I assume since I haven't heard that it did not pass the Senate...... but its DS in action again to levearge the AlreadyTooRich as many multiples as possible include past causing civil unrest. When the Top 5 richest people in the world have as much wealth as the bottom 90% (whatever), they can afford a lot of private security.

Bastards.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:23 pm

if that is your definition of the Deep Stat, bobbo, then it you might just as well give up: everyone who benefits from a status quo wants to maintain it. There is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about that.
That is why we talk of Revolutions: those on the Top are turned (for a while) to the bottom, mostly so you can shake all the coins out of their pants pockets.
But then they get back to the top (or others do).
The goal must always be to harness the power to create wealth in a way that benefits most - and in the long run it always does, even if you need to chop off heads to re-establish equality.

But that is not what talking about the Deep State is about: people could move within or even leave the US to get to more egalitarian societies, if their pain was high enough.
But they rather stay and complain about a shadowy concept keeping them from being successful.
Once it was giving "Negros" rights that was keeping the "real" Americans down....
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:43 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:if that is your definition of the Deep Stat, bobbo, then it you might just as well give up: everyone who benefits from a status quo wants to maintain it. There is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about that. .

I thought we both agreed on the definition of what it WAS/IS and are only differing on its import? The DS that is "important" is important exactly because it is sinister and conspiratorial. My example to play off of is Banks too Big to Fail. As you can see, they are not "just something to blame" but are in fact a "real evil."
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:43 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:if that is your definition of the Deep Stat, bobbo, then it you might just as well give up: everyone who benefits from a status quo wants to maintain it. There is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about that. .

I thought we both agreed on the definition of what it WAS/IS and are only differing on its import? The DS that is "important" is important exactly because it is sinister and conspiratorial. My example to play off of is Banks too Big to Fail. As you can see, they are not "just something to blame" but are in fact a "real evil."



As is the gigantic Military-Industrial-Congressional-Secret Police Complex, imho.

And while some banks were said to be "too big to fail," the Soviet Union and the British and Roman Empires weren't too big to fail...
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 6754cdaebf
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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:55 pm

Well, the military-industrial-congressional-media complex is a direct result of the stated goal of total military domination of the globe: you can't stay the top dog unless you keep on spending way more than all the others.
A big majority of Americans are willing to pay a lot for this sense of martial superiority.
And those with more sense see an excellent way to make tons of money from this.
Military power is the only visible sign left that the US has a Manifest Destiny others supposedly can't interfere with.
Without it, Americans might have to honestly compare themselves to citizens in other nations.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Martin Brock » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:37 pm

The deep state is not a conspiracy. It's the permanent, Federal bureaucracy created by the career civil service system protecting Federal employees from political influence (meaning the influence of transient, elected officials) as well as agencies, particularly military and intelligence agencies, entitled to act secretly even from elected officials. It's also a group of corporations, like Lockheed-Martin, and their officers doing extensive business, sometimes exclusively, with the Federal government.

The existence of this system and these agencies and corporations is not a secret. If our "democracy" replaces every elected official tomorrow, these people and organizations are unaffected until legislation actually changes, which is a very slow and cumbersome process by design, and even when legislation changes, because it's always subject to interpretation, the deep state interpreting it still exercises considerable authority in its own interests.
People associating freely respect norms of their choice, and relationships governed this way are necessarily interdependent.

More central authorities conquer by dividing, imposing norms channeling the value of synergy toward themselves.

"Every man for himself" is the prescription of a state, not a free community. A state protects the poor from the rich only in fairy tales.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:16 am

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:... My example to play off of is Banks too Big to Fail. As you can see, they are not "just something to blame" but are in fact a "real evil."



IMO that is an exaggerated view. Two big to fail is simply a recognition of size and importance - such as the financial exchange system, the US military, or even a state government, or the federal government itself. It only becomes evil if it is not well regulated or acts in perverse ways to the detriment of society at large. Too big to fail simply says it is indispensable to the society it serves.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:06 am

The interesting article below contains a link to a Pentagon study which calls for an increase in "strategic manipulation of perceptions" in order to stall the sun's setting on the US empire.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 6754cdaebf

No doubt, in my mind, anyway, that the AP and other MSM will be happy to oblige the Pentagon/Deep State in this matter by continuing to run their press releases and maintaining close ties with their public relations departments.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:24 am

Tom Palven wrote:The interesting article below contains a link to a Pentagon study which calls for an increase in "strategic manipulation of perceptions" in order to stall the sun's setting on the US empire.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 6754cdaebf

No doubt, in my mind, anyway, that the AP and other MSM will be happy to oblige the Pentagon/Deep State in this matter by continuing to run their press releases and maintaining close ties with their public relations departments.


I wouldn`t worry too much about the AP, MSM, or even the Pentagon/Deep State - when the US has a president that is hell bent on destroying the US from within.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:30 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:The interesting article below contains a link to a Pentagon study which calls for an increase in "strategic manipulation of perceptions" in order to stall the sun's setting on the US empire.
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... 6754cdaebf

No doubt, in my mind, anyway, that the AP and other MSM will be happy to oblige the Pentagon/Deep State in this matter by continuing to run their press releases and maintaining close ties with their public relations departments.


I wouldn`t worry too much about the AP, MSM, or even the Pentagon/Deep State - when the US has a president that is hell bent on destroying the US from within.


I'm not worried in the least, but like a lot of skeptics I'd just like to know what's actually going on and not blindly accept some else's view that Jesus loves me or that the US has a benevolent foreign policy when little or no evidence supports those views and a lot of evidence refutes them.

Jesus doesn't love you, Big Brother doesn't love you, and Uncle Sam doesn't love you.

If you're looking for love in all the wrong places get over it. Look elsewhere.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby TJrandom » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:18 pm

I stopped looking for love a long time ago. But I haven`t tipped over into thinking everybody is out to dupe me either. Obviously the US does have a benevolent (foreign) policy - toward the US, and if it fits - toward foreign countries. Why would you expect anything else?

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:50 am

Martin Brock wrote:The deep state is not a conspiracy.
I agree with Martin that there will always be individuals or collectives who do what they think is best for them regardless of their orders, instructions or imposed statutory regulations. However I think we should use the proper term "Agency theory" which was first applied to corporate governance.

I don't think agency theory can be separated from organisations, regardless of the actual political structure. The Soviets had the same problems with individuals and collectives in their military industrial entities harming the greater good. The craziest examples still go to the Nazis with Dr Porsche wasting enormous resources on production of absolutely useless machines......because he had connections and wanted to make profit.


I agree the aim is to minimise agency theory activities as possible and therefore we need to look at it scientifically to determine methods to reduce its detrimental influence. It is like sexism. You can't get rid of it in total and you must continually fight to reduce its influence.

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Re: The Deep State

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:52 am

I don't care what the subject is.

Of course its a CONSPIRACY combined with entities acting in their own perceived self interest.

NOT EITHER / OR. Not one protected by pointing to the other.

Show more sophistication than a 5 year old.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:24 am

David Stockman says of Trump's tweet, the boldfaced second paragraph in the link below, "No stouter blow to neocon/Deep State "regime change" folly has ever been issued by an elected official."
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/dav ... avo-trump/

Stockman is probably right, but the Deep State can ignore this "stout blow" like an elephant can ignore a butterfly on its back because nobody gives a leaping lap dance.
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Re: The Deep State

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:46 am

Yep, the Evil US Deep State doesn't want the US to give it's influence in the region; the world would be such a better place with if instead it was controlled by Russia's Deep State.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Deep State

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:11 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Yep, the Evil US Deep State doesn't want the US to give up it's influence in the region; the world would be such a better place with if instead it was controlled by Russia's Deep State.


Do you consider yourself to be more of a right-winger than Pat Buchanan, perhaps a Lindsay Graham fan?

“Apparently, U.S. wars in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Somalia are insufficient to satiate our War Party. Now it wants us to lead the Sunnis of the Middle East in taking down the Shiites, who are dominant in Iran, Iraq, Syria and South Lebanon, and are a majority in Bahrain and the oil-producing regions of Saudi Arabia.

The U.S. military has its work cut out for it. President Trump may need those transgender troops.”—Patrick Buchanan Aug. 2, 2017

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/08/pat ... less-wars/
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