The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

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The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:19 pm

The fact that I can't find any evidence without doing any research just shows how well executed the pretend coup was.

But I do wonder how members of a former military dictatorship can be so inept at executing a grab for power: if they knew they didn't have the support of the rank, they wouldn't have tried it in the first place. And if they did have the full cooperation of the armies, Erdogan would by now either be dead or in a black-site cell: Turkey has enough of those.

I find it telling that the rebels withdrew from the airport just before Erdogan was landing.


Let's not spoil this theory with actual fact, alright?
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby OutOfBreath » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:26 pm

I expect him to take advantage of this, but find it hard to believe a "false flag" of that magnitude. But I may be inclined to think that Erdogan's camp had a heads-up that something was brewing and was waiting for it to happen. I note that Erdogan was away, and it doesn't appear that he was close to arrest. A coup will always fail if they dont get all the objectives fast. Without a fait accompli it quickly disintegrates as the establishment responds.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:30 pm

Yes, this gave him "justification" to purge the army and the courts of anyone who might oppose his next grab for even more authority.

If he didn't plan it, he certainly moved quickly to take advantage of it.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:23 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:But I do wonder how members of a former military dictatorship can be so inept at executing a grab for power:


Who knows...........yet? The possible maybe I have heard is that this is a plot from some Muslim Fundie that lives in the Poconoh's? I have so little respect for the religiously possessed that I am happy to ascribe this motivation to every loopy thing I ever see.

So..........not an affirmative statement as to causation, just saying the ineptitude is consistent with a religious motivation.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Paul Anthony » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:23 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
So..........not an affirmative statement as to causation, just saying the ineptitude is consistent with a religious motivation.


Are ALL religious people inept?

Are ONLY religious people inept?

You are rambling again, Boobo. Time for more drugs?
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:38 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:The fact that I can't find any evidence without doing any research just shows how well executed the pretend coup was.

But I do wonder how members of a former military dictatorship can be so inept at executing a grab for power: if they knew they didn't have the support of the rank, they wouldn't have tried it in the first place. And if they did have the full cooperation of the armies, Erdogan would by now either be dead or in a black-site cell: Turkey has enough of those.

I find it telling that the rebels withdrew from the airport just before Erdogan was landing.


Let's not spoil this theory with actual fact, alright?


I find myself sort of nodding in this direction. The coup was so inept as to be hardly credible. Helicopters versus jets doesn't quite appear to be air superiority, and bringing out so few troops knowing how many others were not necessarily onside seems like very wishful thinking. No attempt made to arrest Erdogan before spilling onto the streets also is a tad naive, especially as he was on holiday in Marmaris rather than being in a deep fortification in Ankara. And now Erdogan is following up by arresting a heap of judges who were not, at least openly, taking to the barricade.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Flash » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:52 pm

But why has the American air base in Turkey been sealed off by Erdogan?

Erdogan...the lose human cannon ball. He tries to get NATO involved in the war with Russia, alienates the Europeans, unsuccessfully attacks Syria in a proxy war using ISIL and Turkomans, invades norther Iraq, starts a genocidal war with the Kurds, alienates Egypt of all countries and Israel as well as Iran and Iraq, and now shits on his best friends the Americans.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:54 pm

There's now more than a slight rattish scent.

3000 conspirators? So soon? He's just arresting everyone he doesn't like.

Wait for extra moves towards Islamism and further crackdowns on civil liberties. And this is the man who wanted to lead his country into the EU.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:32 am

Flash wrote:But why has the American air base in Turkey been sealed off by Erdogan?

More interesting than that......why were the German political members refused access to visit German troops, at the base, two days before the coup? I don't think that was really Turkey protesting about Germany's Armenian genocide declaration.

Germany monitors Turkey and Syria. If anyone knows if something funny is going on, it will be Germany.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:24 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36832071

I think this goes right along with our little conspiracy theory. Erdogan has been all but demanding entry to the EU for years now. He knows, beyond all shadow of doubt, that reintroducing the death penalty means Turkey won't be allowed to join for at least a couple of decades after it is re-outlawed. He's taking Turkey in a totally different direction now.

But having fallen out with Russia and Syria and, now, the EU, where's he going to turn?

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:11 pm

Flash wrote:But why has the American air base in Turkey been sealed off by Erdogan?


The 50 tactical nukes housed there might have something to do with it.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Venerable Kwan Tam Woo » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:14 pm

Poodle wrote:But having fallen out with Russia and Syria and, now, the EU, where's he going to turn?


He's going to unleash millions of "refugees" on Europe. This will cause Europe to descend into chaos, and he will take advantage of this chaos by invading southern Europe and incorporating it into his Neo-Ottoman Empire.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:57 am

Poodle wrote:........ reintroducing the death penalty means Turkey won't be allowed to join for at least a couple of decades after it is re-outlawed. He's taking Turkey in a totally different direction now.
Chancellor Merkel specifically told Erdogan that, on Sunday or Monday night.

Poodle wrote:But having fallen out with Russia and Syria and, now, the EU, where's he going to turn?

Iran and the post ISIS proxy government he hoped to establish in North West Syria. If Raqqa, the ISIS stronghold falls, then most of the Kurdish army will be intact and on the other side of Raqqa from Turkey. If he forms an alliance with Iran he will be able to strike the Kurdish army through Iranian territory. This suits Iran, as the Iranian army is currently fighting a low key insurgency against Kurds in Western Iran.

However, if Russia and the USA set up the new USA-Russian military joint headquarters, it would seem probable that the USA and Russia will control post ISIS Raqqa and have rather large combined military presence directly butting up against Iran. For this reason "if" something indicated that pro-USA Kurd militias and Pro-Russian Kurdish militias were negotiating a treaty it would suggest that the USA and Russia are "allowing" for mutually friendly Kurdish regime to fill the gap. As the Kurds have been somewhat well behaved and sensible, this may be a good "end game" solution for the USA, Russian Federation and the region in general. You may have noticed that Russia proposed that the pro-Russian Kurd militias sit on any proposed cease fire treaty, in May and the USA did not object. Turkey objected strenuously.

Economically the Turkish government can prop up the Turkish Lire, in a post coup environment, but Turkish government bonds, which are indicative of long term economic stability, suggest Turkey may not be able to maintain its current military expenditure and thus Washington can hold back "needed" military grants as a future threat. Russia can simply sit on its hands as "its assistance".

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:33 am

Turkey prospered while it's policy was "no problem with neighbors".

But if the rest of the western world considers Turkey unsafe for vacation and unsuited as military or business partner, it's economy will wilt within a decade to next to nothing.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Gord » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:15 am

ElectricMonk wrote:Turkey prospered while it's policy was "no problem with neighbors".

But if the rest of the western world considers Turkey unsafe for vacation and unsuited as military or business partner, it's economy will wilt within a decade to next to nothing.

its

Every time someone writes "it's" I automatically read it as "it is". :P
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby OlegTheBatty » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:20 pm

Gord wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:Turkey prospered while it's policy was "no problem with neighbors".

But if the rest of the western world considers Turkey unsafe for vacation and unsuited as military or business partner, it's economy will wilt within a decade to next to nothing.

its

Every time someone writes "it's" I automatically read it as "it is". :P

As you should, because that's what it's. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:37 pm

I think those were just posted in the Funny image thread.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Paul Anthony » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:48 pm

Gord wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:

Every time someone writes "it's" I automatically read it as "it is". :P


Bad spelling irritates me, too. But bad pronunciation is a bigger crime. (Something we won't encounter here, thankfully).

"Isn't" is a contraction. It is not just the removal of a vowel, but the removal of a syllable. "Is not" has two syllables. "Isn't" has one.
And yet...I hear too many people pronounce "isn't" as if it were "is-ent". Two syllables.

What's the point of having a contraction if it is just as long as the two words it replaces! :?
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:25 am

Paul Anthony wrote:... "Isn't" is a contraction. It is not just the removal of a vowel, but the removal of a syllable. "Is not" has two syllables. "Isn't" has one ...


Hmmm. I'm not jumping in until I see where Paul is going with this.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Gord » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:10 am

Poodle wrote:
Paul Anthony wrote:... "Isn't" is a contraction. It is not just the removal of a vowel, but the removal of a syllable. "Is not" has two syllables. "Isn't" has one ...

Hmmm. I'm not jumping in until I see where Paul is going with this.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:38 am

Interesting take on the coup attempt by Eric Margolis:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/07/eri ... hind-coup/
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Flash » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:18 am

Eric Margolis writes;
Gulen was a close ally of Erdogan, but they fell out and became bitter enemies. Gulen was close to the US and often sided with Israel. His exile in the US was reportedly engineered by the CIA.

This has led many Turks to accused Washington of trying to overthrow Erdogan by using the military and Gulen – which the US denies.

Adding yet more mystery, the Turkish commander of Incirlik airbase in eastern Turkey was a key coup plotter. Incirlik is used by the US Air Force for Mideast operations.

The F-16 pilot who downed a Russian SU-24 bomber last year, sparking a huge crisis with Moscow, has been arrested in the coup dragnet. Could the ambush of the Russian warplane have been part of a plot to embarrass and undermine Erdogan? Looks like it.

Eric Margolis could be right. The coup was probably orchestrated by a strange coalition of the military secularists and the ultra-orthodox salafists all controlled by the CIA. Yeap, the CIA had to have it's bloody fingers in that pie too. It's just the law of the Universe.

And I was most likely wrong when I thought that the shooting down of the Russian plane was done on orders of Erdogan himself in order to provoke the NATO/Russian war.

It was probably a preamble to the coup and an attempt by the CIA and the Turkish military to ruin the good relationship Erdogan then had with Putin.

Some other good sources, the Saker writing for UNZ for example, thinks that the Russians actually knew about the coup and warned Erdogan just in time.

The CIA directorate must be going absolutely nuts. It's not enough that they can no longer do a decent (or indecent) coup anywhere but it's those bloody Russians...They seem to know about everything we want to do as if... the director's office was bugged or something.

Let's do something nasty to them in return, like...Oh, like kicking them out of the Olympics or even better, having president Clinton declare a no fly zone over Moscow. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:28 am

Tom Palven wrote:Interesting take on the coup attempt by Eric Margolis:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/07/eri ... hind-coup/



That is an incredibly biased pro-totalitarian piece of propaganda.

The earlier plot he is referring to played out like this: a bunch of mid-rank officers were arrested and thrown in jail for a while. After years of trial the judges determined that there was no solid evidence against them and that the stuff that the prosecution presented was mostly fabricated - they had to be released.

Meanwhile, Erdogan has been closing TV stations and newspapers left and right (all before the coup, mind you), thrown more journalists into jail than China, started literally thousands of civil suits for insulting him by, for example, liking a slightly critical post on Facebook. On top of that, we is bombing the part of his population he does not like (i.e. Kurds), even though they are the only ones in Turkey actually fighting ISIS.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:19 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:Interesting take on the coup attempt by Eric Margolis:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/07/eri ... hind-coup/

That is an incredibly biased pro-totalitarian piece of propaganda.


"Propaganda" implies purposefulness. What purpose do you suppose Margolis has in blasting who he refers to as neocons at the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Washington Post?
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:34 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
"Propaganda" implies purposefulness. What purpose do you suppose Margolis has in blasting who he refers to as neocons at the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Washington Post?


I don't think he has a purpose beyond putting up an opposing narrative, which seems to make him look more nuanced and informed.
But consider that basically everyone outside of Erdogan's AKP is deeply worried about the direction Turkey is taking, including all other Muslim countries, Russia and the whole of the EU.

In the past the US has been overly sympathetic to Turkey regardless of its governance because of its strategic importance.
But as Turkey gets more and more irresponsible, foreign-policy wise and moves further and further towards Islamism, people in Washington are rightly concerned about the reliability of its NATO partner, as are all other members of the alliance.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:52 pm

ElectricMonk wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:
"Propaganda" implies purposefulness. What purpose do you suppose Margolis has in blasting who he refers to as neocons at the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Washington Post?


I don't think he has a purpose beyond putting up an opposing narrative, which seems to make him look more nuanced and informed.
But consider that basically everyone outside of Erdogan's AKP is deeply worried about the direction Turkey is taking, including all other Muslim countries, Russia and the whole of the EU.

In the past the US has been overly sympathetic to Turkey regardless of its governance because of its strategic importance.
But as Turkey gets more and more irresponsible, foreign-policy wise and moves further and further towards Islamism, people in Washington are rightly concerned about the reliability of its NATO partner, as are all other members of the alliance.


All that you say may be true, probably depending on how one wants to spin things, but In the past the US has been perfectly happy to orchestrate or allow the overthrow of democratically-elected parliaments it wasn't happy with in Iran in 1953 and more recently in Palestine and Egypt, and I don't see why we shouldn't be suspicious that that's what was attempted again here.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Paul Anthony » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:39 pm

Tom Palven wrote:
ElectricMonk wrote:
Tom Palven wrote:


All that you say may be true, probably depending on how one wants to spin things, but In the past the US has been perfectly happy to orchestrate or allow the overthrow of democratically-elected parliaments it wasn't happy with in Iran in 1953 and more recently in Palestine and Egypt, and I don't see why we shouldn't be suspicious that that's what was attempted again here.


Yes, the US has a long history of meddling in and overthrowing foreign governments. That hasn't changed. What has changed is that we seem to be less adept at it.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:48 pm

Actually, the US has a long history of trying to overthrow governments. The actual track record is lousy.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:09 am

Russia Today alleges that US orchestrated the Turkey coup attempt, although orchestrating a coup against a NATO member seems over-the-top even for the US.
https://www.rt.com/news/353126-campbell ... up-turkey/
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:36 am

Is it possible that the US is behind the coup attempt? Absolutely.

But it is also possible that pro-Erdogan forces are just trying to pressure the US into extraditing his rival Gulen - as they have done in the past.

Erdogan&Co. have made outrageous accusations of conspiracy against basically everyone, including foreign airlines, so without proof they simply have no credibility whatsoever.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:28 am

More thoughts on the coup attempt in Turkey:
https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2016/07/25/ ... in-turkey/
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:11 am

Hmmmm. I can't see why the 'Erdogan did it' theory needs to be abandoned quite yet, and the writer doesn't appear to offer any reason other than it's his opinion.

I absolutely agree that Turkey has now abandoned its Europeanisation project (and, in fact, never got into it very enthusiastically) but to suggest that it is turning to a perceived Russia/China power bloc is naive. Russia and China are not about to start enthusiastically agreeing with one another for the foreseeable future. Even an alliance with Russia alone would cause problems - Georgia would be very effectively isolated and would not like that one little bit. They would look for support from the west and would probably get it and there we go again - yet another mess for the Russians. I can't see that happening. If it did, though, Georgia would benefit from a massive inpouring of western funds together with the transference of US presence in Turkey (if it can't have Turkey, Georgia is a reasonable second-best).

As for any reconciliation with the Kurds ... well, that would come at the price of autonomy and Turkey doesn't do autonomy. But it is now almost unavoidable that an independent Kurdish state is going to come into existence and, if Turkey does not go along with that to a great extent, then it will create an insecure situation on its own doorstep even bigger than the one it already has.

It's still all up in the air.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:57 am

Actually, Turkey is on borrowed time: it has massive short-term debts and its only consistent income (tourism) is in the dumps for the foreseeable future.
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2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:13 pm

Here is Al-Jazeera, that just weighed in on the coup attempt, embracing the retention of democracy in Turkey without directly pointing a finger at the US.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 37778.html
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:32 pm

That report seems very un-Al Jazeera-like. It reads like an attempt to paint Erdogan as a saint. Not too accurate in places, either ...

"The straw that will break the camel's back is Turkey's mulling over reinstating the death penalty, which might jeopardise Turkey's EU accession efforts."

No - there's no might about it. If you have a death penalty you cannot be a member of the EU. No shades of grey there.

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:00 pm

More bad news for the State Dept./Pentagon which some might put in the category of blow-back or Very Unintended Consequences.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... SKCN10912T
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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:20 pm

Yes, the Turkish military is broken, probably for a decade until organic growth produces a new cadre of leaders.

The reason why the military was full of Gulen followers is entirely Erdogan's fault btw: when he and Gulen were still Pals, they systematically subverted the secular military leadership by planting religious leaders.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Tom Palven » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:34 am

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby ElectricMonk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:52 am

Ever since Erdogan got his balls crushed by a horse he has been reacting poorly to any questioning of his manliness, errr, I mean authority.
I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
Spoiler:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.
- Douglas Adams

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Re: The Military Coup in Turkey was a false flag operation engineered by Erdogan

Postby Poodle » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:58 am

Tom Palven wrote:Latest on Turkey/Erdogan:
http://news.antiwar.com/2016/07/29/erdo ... our-place/


So now we must decide whether Erdogan's rhetoric says what he believes or whether it's purely for Turkish public consumption. Russia already has strong influence in Syria and Turkey is just next door. There is a temptation to see this as Erdogan's attempt to create a situation allowing a major political realignment in the region.


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